So I've been soaking in everything I possibly can from the hide for the past few months and, as one might expect on a long range shooting forum, there is constant talk about ballistics, internal, external, terminal, forgive me if I butcher the jargon! My question to you all, both veterans and new shooters, is where did you learn to speak ballistics? I would like to begin to understand the ballistic forces working on the bullet in the rifle and in the air. Not only do I think it will help me a great deal in understanding the long range rifle game, but, call me crazy, I find the stuff interesting! Is there a website, a video, or preferably a good ol' book I can read? What's good and what's not? Thanks for putting up with a curious seventeen year old. The advice is appreciated!
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How did you all learn ballistics?
Math class. Trig, geometry and physics class. Do good in school. And read, read more, then read it again.
P.S. read my sig line below. Live it.
Math class. Trig, geometry and physics class. Do good in school. And read, read more, then read it again.
P.S. read my sig line below. Live it.
If only we could have a class for ballistics! Unfortunately I think my public education will probably steer clear from bullets. However I will be taking an AP physics class next year and some calculus towards the end of this semester. Hopefully that will tie into ballistics pretty well.
Geometry some, physics more. An earlier version of the Sierra reloading manual. You can get by with that as a basic foundation as long as you apply the first two to fully understanding the last and/or works like it.
The bookwork will not give you perfection, but it will help you understand the relationships between observed performance and its variations. As a handloader, you can alter conditions in a controlled manner, and that's where a lot of the practical knowledge originates.
Saving you all some time and trouble, it's really only the basics that have a meaningful bearing. The little tangents and 'interesting' factors all have some meaning; but they have only incremental influence over the basics, and even less effect than environmental factors that cannot be influenced.
Computations can show gross directions to answers, but cannot be counted upon for rendering ultimate precision. That needs to be based on polished marksmanship skills, setting realistic goals, and developing an intuitive grasp on "when I do this, that happens...".
Two minds and two pairs of eyes are a lot more than twice as good as playing a game of singles.
Greg
The bookwork will not give you perfection, but it will help you understand the relationships between observed performance and its variations. As a handloader, you can alter conditions in a controlled manner, and that's where a lot of the practical knowledge originates.
Saving you all some time and trouble, it's really only the basics that have a meaningful bearing. The little tangents and 'interesting' factors all have some meaning; but they have only incremental influence over the basics, and even less effect than environmental factors that cannot be influenced.
Computations can show gross directions to answers, but cannot be counted upon for rendering ultimate precision. That needs to be based on polished marksmanship skills, setting realistic goals, and developing an intuitive grasp on "when I do this, that happens...".
Two minds and two pairs of eyes are a lot more than twice as good as playing a game of singles.
Greg
Google; plus knowledgeable shooters at the matches. On-line ballistic programs, like on handloads.com or bergerbullets.com. Just google a word like coriolis, or spin drift, or crosswind effect on vertical (I don't know if that one gets any hits). Then get Olyarms to cut a left-twist barrel for you, and verify the spin drift and the crosswind effect on vertical for yourself. Actually, just get the left-twist barrel, and forget about horizontal coriolis and spin drift, and say that vertical effect is 1" for every 10" of wind drift. That'll get you there. Only other issues will be East/West coriolis, plus atmospheric factors, which are all density-based, IIRC. Just the tiniest bit of change for headwind/tailwind, probably never going to be able to verify that one on paper. What did I forget?
Edit; I forgot: If you're hunting, you also need vertical change for uphill/downhill angle, which introduces some wind corrections. Basically once you include vertical, the wind needs to be seen as a vector in relation to the bullet's flight, since the equation is now 3 dimensional instead of planar. That would be pretty extreme, and I can see someone hanging onto a bush on the side of a cliff, with his rifle tied around his neck, doing all these calculations.
Jim
Edit; I forgot: If you're hunting, you also need vertical change for uphill/downhill angle, which introduces some wind corrections. Basically once you include vertical, the wind needs to be seen as a vector in relation to the bullet's flight, since the equation is now 3 dimensional instead of planar. That would be pretty extreme, and I can see someone hanging onto a bush on the side of a cliff, with his rifle tied around his neck, doing all these calculations.
Jim
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Once you pull the trigger, or the loading press handle, everything that happens is your responsibility. That's the main reason why my handloads stay in my own possession, period.
Greg
Send rounds down range, make each one count, putting thought into each trigger press. Keep quality data and ALWAYS return to this data to either reinforce it or make adjustments to it. Also buy a copy of Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting second edition by Brian Litz. Another good source is get a ballistics software program like Field Firing solutions or Cold Bore. Here you can input data every which way and understand magnitudes of forces and how it changes things. I believe FFS program manual is a downloadable PDF just reading that will get you going.
Kind of out of your area but Long Gun Training in Western NY presents an External Ballistics class, I cover everything and explain principles.
Kind of out of your area but Long Gun Training in Western NY presents an External Ballistics class, I cover everything and explain principles.
Jaeger308 has my complete respect. His background is solid, and he competes at a much higher level than I can. You could do worse, but I think it would be very hard to do better.
Greg
Greg
one day when i was a wee lad, vjj was in the bathroom too long so i ran outside to urinate. during that lengthy stream i observed the effects of windage, eotvos, coriolis, trajectory, velocity, spindrift, parralax, density altitude, yolandi visser, ballistic coefficient, turgor pressure, etc.
years later my sugarmomma bought me an sks sniper rifle and everything just clicked all billy zanetastic.
years later my sugarmomma bought me an sks sniper rifle and everything just clicked all billy zanetastic.
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though i dont recollect, i assume i was in the bafroom slingin ropes counting the inches in drop
I guess I learned some in high school, some in Engineering School, some as a result of doing testing and some from other shooters.
When someone is generally interested in learning more deeply about firearms in general, I typically recommend Hatcher's Notebook. Any decent ballistician will have a copy, it covers a lot. You will find several foundations upon which others have built. It is a good starting point for further investigation.
On the topic of exterior ballistics, McCoy's Modern Exterior Ballistics offers a deeper mathematical approach than most, which is what turns most people off to it. It is actually used as a text in some College Engineering (aerospace usually) courses. Litz offers a more practical approach. Neither cover interior or terminal ballistics well as they are not their specialties.
Most interior ballistics books are addressed at the rocket scientist or the associated engineering disciplines (materials, thermo, chemical). While there is some value for the practical rifleman, few have the breadth of education to be able to deal with interlaced topics. In most cases you are relying on the barrel designer, the powder properties and the bullet designer to get you through the few seconds of your barrels life.
Terminal ballistics deals with the projectile interaction with a target and there are a lot of different topics herein. The modeling of the interaction depends on the desired effect or the forensic goal. There is test data for energy levels that can be used for a variety of materials, and the impact strengths and rupture characteristics can be determined. This can be done as a predictor of damage or penetration, or to forensically determine impact velocities. Virtual autopsy utilizing energy levels of tissue combined with energy levels required for jacket separation, material deformation and penetration obtained through MRIs is a relatively young analytical process, but it is extremely fascinating. While there are some papers and verification of the process, there is not a generalist type of book on the matter at present.
When someone is generally interested in learning more deeply about firearms in general, I typically recommend Hatcher's Notebook. Any decent ballistician will have a copy, it covers a lot. You will find several foundations upon which others have built. It is a good starting point for further investigation.
On the topic of exterior ballistics, McCoy's Modern Exterior Ballistics offers a deeper mathematical approach than most, which is what turns most people off to it. It is actually used as a text in some College Engineering (aerospace usually) courses. Litz offers a more practical approach. Neither cover interior or terminal ballistics well as they are not their specialties.
Most interior ballistics books are addressed at the rocket scientist or the associated engineering disciplines (materials, thermo, chemical). While there is some value for the practical rifleman, few have the breadth of education to be able to deal with interlaced topics. In most cases you are relying on the barrel designer, the powder properties and the bullet designer to get you through the few seconds of your barrels life.
Terminal ballistics deals with the projectile interaction with a target and there are a lot of different topics herein. The modeling of the interaction depends on the desired effect or the forensic goal. There is test data for energy levels that can be used for a variety of materials, and the impact strengths and rupture characteristics can be determined. This can be done as a predictor of damage or penetration, or to forensically determine impact velocities. Virtual autopsy utilizing energy levels of tissue combined with energy levels required for jacket separation, material deformation and penetration obtained through MRIs is a relatively young analytical process, but it is extremely fascinating. While there are some papers and verification of the process, there is not a generalist type of book on the matter at present.
This. Physics, even relatively simple physics (constant acceleration) gives you a very good understanding of what's going on.
And then there are those who stand right on top of the target and manage to shortround the sh*t out of it ... or into it.
Basics in Hammelburg but it was very specific to our platforms and more of a 'you do this for this, and if you want this, you do this' approach as opposed to why and how.
Since then distance shooting demands it to an extent and the reloading/load workup process supplemented it.
Since then distance shooting demands it to an extent and the reloading/load workup process supplemented it.
ya caint just read ultimate sniper and lern angle o me dangle, it do take some recknon...operator as fuk
What if I spend 8000 dollars with tacticalrifles.net? I be the ultimate operator sniper then???
Sounds like an inexpensive way to work on fundamental marksmanship at home!
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Go on YouTube and search TiborasaurusRex and start watching his Sniper 101 series. Go ahead and read Applied Ballistics by Brian Litz too.
Rock fights with friends when we were kids, then shooting every bird and cat in the neighborhood with my pellet gun. I had a blessed childhood.
If you want/need to start at the very basics:
Understanding Firearm Ballistics: Robert A. Rinker: 9780964559851: Amazon.com: Books
I don't know where Amazon is getting $99,, look around, should be $30-35
I still re-read it occasionaly.
as an aside, I loaned it to a buddy who was just starting out,, so far that book has cost him about $12000,lol. But he does have some bitchin' toys now.
Understanding Firearm Ballistics: Robert A. Rinker: 9780964559851: Amazon.com: Books
I don't know where Amazon is getting $99,, look around, should be $30-35
I still re-read it occasionaly.
as an aside, I loaned it to a buddy who was just starting out,, so far that book has cost him about $12000,lol. But he does have some bitchin' toys now.
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Slept with an aerospace engineering student 
. No wait unlesss I am gay nobody will buy passable for a female enginnering student lie.
Lets see took Calculus 1 2 and 3 and several classes at Long Gun Training where we went over external ballistics. After taking calculus and physics I was actually able to understand Arthur Pejsa's book on ballistics.
Also I was arund some smart and paient people so once in a while I was able t shut the hell up long enough to listen and learn.
. No wait unlesss I am gay nobody will buy passable for a female enginnering student lie.Lets see took Calculus 1 2 and 3 and several classes at Long Gun Training where we went over external ballistics. After taking calculus and physics I was actually able to understand Arthur Pejsa's book on ballistics.
Also I was arund some smart and paient people so once in a while I was able t shut the hell up long enough to listen and learn.
I am reminded of the concepts that hope is not a strategy, and luck does not belong as part of one's marksmanship technique.
Then a new episode of ...Wormhole... came on last night (Is luck real?) and got me thinking. While both concepts are valid, I believe that hope and luck are still somewhat related to how one approaches the challenge of marksmanship.
I firmly believe that if a shooter loses faith in their ability, their marksmanship suffers; so having no hope can be genuinely detrimental.
I also believe that we sometimes (in my case maybe even often enough to count as all the time) overthink the process.
I suspect I may do this essentially because I may well have convinced myself that without bad luck, I'd have none at all. If I could convince myself that I actually do have a smattering of good luck, I might trust to it more, and dissuade myself from overthinking marksmanship matters quite so much. It may have the potential to help my marksmanship. If not, then I guess I truly am 'over the hill'.
In any case, I need to have more confidence and increasingly trust my training.
Reexamining luck from a statistical viewpoint, I think that those environmental, et. el., issues that are utterly beyond one's control constitute enough random chance to affect marksmanship in no small way pretty much the same as luck might. For my intents and purposes, I may well choose to treat them as such.
Put another way, some part of what we do is a crap shoot.
Greg
Then a new episode of ...Wormhole... came on last night (Is luck real?) and got me thinking. While both concepts are valid, I believe that hope and luck are still somewhat related to how one approaches the challenge of marksmanship.
I firmly believe that if a shooter loses faith in their ability, their marksmanship suffers; so having no hope can be genuinely detrimental.
I also believe that we sometimes (in my case maybe even often enough to count as all the time) overthink the process.
I suspect I may do this essentially because I may well have convinced myself that without bad luck, I'd have none at all. If I could convince myself that I actually do have a smattering of good luck, I might trust to it more, and dissuade myself from overthinking marksmanship matters quite so much. It may have the potential to help my marksmanship. If not, then I guess I truly am 'over the hill'.
In any case, I need to have more confidence and increasingly trust my training.
Reexamining luck from a statistical viewpoint, I think that those environmental, et. el., issues that are utterly beyond one's control constitute enough random chance to affect marksmanship in no small way pretty much the same as luck might. For my intents and purposes, I may well choose to treat them as such.
Put another way, some part of what we do is a crap shoot.
Greg
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Bought rifle.
Decided what ammo I would use.
Fired rifle from 25-700 yards in 25 yard increments every day for 365 days.
Recorded that data.
I now know "ballistics" for MY rifle, MY ammo in ALL conditions in my A.O. out to 700 yards (limit of rage available)
Repeat for each rifle, ammo and AO you encounter.
Sully
Decided what ammo I would use.
Fired rifle from 25-700 yards in 25 yard increments every day for 365 days.
Recorded that data.
I now know "ballistics" for MY rifle, MY ammo in ALL conditions in my A.O. out to 700 yards (limit of rage available)
Repeat for each rifle, ammo and AO you encounter.
Sully
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