Suppressors How do you carry/track you paperwork to the range or out shooting?

[HPIguy]

First off, I don't do public ranges. They are an ND just waiting to happen around here, as there are no ROs on duty, and they're inhabited by muzzle flagging mouth breathers.

Second off, I'm glad I live in an area where a lot of the local cops also have NFA items, and most are really cool. I've never been asked to produce paperwork, not at a local indoor range, or anywhere else. That being said, I have copies on my phone if needed. I have shit to do, and don't have the time, or the patience to fight a legal battle over something that a simple showing of paperwork will make go away now. If you want to die on that hill, have at it.

 

[TurboTrout]

First off, I don't do public ranges. They are an ND just waiting to happen around here, as there are no ROs on duty, and they're inhabited by muzzle flagging mouth breathers.

Second off, I'm glad I live in an area where a lot of the local cops also have NFA items, and most are really cool. I've never been asked to produce paperwork, not at a local indoor range, or anywhere else. That being said, I have copies on my phone if needed. I have shit to do, and don't have the time, or the patience to fight a legal battle over something that a simple showing of paperwork will make go away now. If you want to die on that hill, have at it.

ROs are more bothersome than the average shooter

Your mindset on showing your papers is why we are heading in the direction we are gun wise, your mindset is why your great grandkids probably won’t even be able to be armed with mean words, let alone a firearm.

 

[Rlandry]

I have no desire to be one of the "Am I being detained?" idiots, not do I have the desire or the money to be a test case for anything. As far as I'm concerned, if a guy with a badge asks to see my stuff, I show what's needed, and we both go on to have a good day.

 

[Huskydriver]

I have no desire to be one of the "Am I being detained?" idiots, not do I have the desire or the money to be a test case for anything. As far as I'm concerned, if a guy with a badge asks to see my stuff, I show what's needed, and we both go on to have a good day.

Let me see your covid vac card sir

 

[HPIguy]

ROs are more bothersome than the average shooter

Your mindset on showing your papers is why we are heading in the direction we are gun wise, your mindset is why your great grandkids probably won’t even be able to be armed with mean words, let alone a firearm.

You have no concept of who I am other than a tiny snippet of internet info. You also have no clue of the things I'm willing to defend, gun ownership for my nieces and nephews being one of them. But thanks for playing the jump to conclusions game.

 

[TurboTrout]

You have no concept of who I am other than a tiny snippet of internet info. You also have no clue of the things I'm willing to defend, gun ownership for my nieces and nephews being one of them. But thanks for playing the jump to conclusions game.

Did you misspeak?

“Am I being detained idiots” So you’ll lick boots of any idiot who could get a job with the local cop shop?

Enough fools do that and it becomes common practice to show papers, at that point shitting on what’s left of the 4A, and the end of 4A is a foregone conclusion, at that point “if you have nothing hide” why not can that stupid 5A, I mean it’s just the “am I being detained idiots” who use that, and at that level of faith in government, why do you even need a gun anyways? Gov will protect you, gov knows what’s best. Honestly this is where the right and the left start to merge into one statist clusterfuck

I’d say you made it pretty clear you ain’t defending shit rights wise. May your chains rest lightly, and back the bluuuuuuuu!

 

[The38Super]

How often have you been asked to produce paperwork?

Only at an indoor range (when I had no other options), for my SBR. I made the guy work hard to see it and taught him new words like indemnify.

 

[Lazyfaire]

I have a few suppressors that serve on several guns. I've caught myself at the range once or twice without the right paperwork (fortunately not busted). Do you just put a copy of everything in your bag/pack so you are always covered? Taped under your pack? In your pocket?

There must be an easy way. I'm paranoid it will end stupidly one day while I am out trying to have fun.

Thanks, LT

Take your actual stamp paperwork to a Kinko's. Have them copy both sides and reduce it to about 3.5" x 3.5". Have them laminate them too. Punch a hole in a corner of them all and buy a 2" ring to keep them together. They'll fit in an inside or an end pocket of your bag.

 

[...]

I have no desire to be one of the "Am I being detained?" idiots, not do I have the desire or the money to be a test case for anything. As far as I'm concerned, if a guy with a badge asks to see my stuff, I show what's needed, and we both go on to have a good day.

a fair number of people in East Germany had that same mindset.

 

[longtines]

Great debate going on and needs to be a national discussion.

Realistically, you have to choose your battles. I'm a lawyer so I know. If you want to pay me $350/hr with a $25k non-refundable retainer to preserve your right to tell a cop to "suck my dick," then send me a check and I will represent.

If you have some common sense, you know now is not the time for such a discussion. Those of us

 

[...]

Great debate going on and needs to be a national discussion.

Realistically, you have to choose your battles. I'm a lawyer so I know. If you want to pay me $350/hr with a $25k non-refundable retainer to preserve your right to tell a cop to "suck my dick," then send me a check and I will represent.

If you have some common sense, you know now is not the time for such a discussion. Those of us

the unfortunate thing about principals is that the still apply even when its not convenient....one would argue, they ONLY really matter if you uphold them when they arent convenient to do so.

but maybe the "right time" to have this discussion is to wait until AFTER weve lost our rights? eh?....you know, kind of like all of the other infringements to the 2A......"oh now isnt the time to have this discussion"......is how we ended up in the situation we are in now.

"choose your battles" is what we told ourself when they instituted the NFA......when they instituted background checks.....when they banned bump stocks.....and we are going to "choose our battles" right out of the fucking 2A.

we should be choosing ALL battles when it comes to the constitution.

yall talk about needing a gun to "defend from tyranny"....but half of yall dont even have enough of a backbone to tell a cop to get a warrant.

bunch of fucking cucks playing patriots.

...some of yall really needed to hear that....

 

[longtines]

@mcameron

I couldn't agree more! amen!

 

[elwarpo]

The cop was out of line to threaten you with arrest, IMO. Here is the relevant MI law:

MCL - Section 750.224b - Michigan Legislature

www.legislature.mi.gov

(5) A person who possesses a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle that is greater than 26 inches in length under this section shall possess a copy of the federal registration of that short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle while transporting or using that short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle and shall present that federal registration to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer.
(6) A person who violates subsection (5) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00. A short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle carried in violation of subsection (5) is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle under this subsection, the person has 45 days in which to display the federal registration to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the person displays the federal registration to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle to the person unless the person is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the person does not display the federal registration within the 45-day period, the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle is subject to seizure and forfeiture in the same manner that property is subject to seizure and forfeiture under sections 4701 to 4709 of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.4701 to 600.4709.

MI does require papers to be shown upon request, but a $100 fine and temporary seizure of the property is the maximum penalty. Whatever else happened leading up to this part of the conversation with the officer may be a different story, of course (in particular, I bet that attempting to offer a roadside education to most officers on the concept of a "MI pistol" would not have set the stage for a calm and rational discussion on the nature of civil infractions for missing NFA papers). I do know that if I'm talking about my NFA stuff with cop, something else probably led up to that point, and in all likelihood it has to do with the speed at which I was traveling in my motor vehicle.

I don't ever recall any of those conversations turning into a request to see any firearms; in fact, I'm usually requested to do exactly the opposite. An SBR alongside the front seat (as opposed to a CCW pistol under my shirt or a cases long gun in the back) would likely change the dynamic of that conversation in a hurry. In areas with poaching problems (uh, that'd be most of MI), rifle-caliber anything is going to attract special attention - especially if a suppressor and lights/lasers or anything else suggesting low-light operations are involved. Any short of a Ma Deuce in the back is unlikely to attract attention; something that looks capable of killing deer from the driver's seat will turn a sheriff's deputy into a game warden in about oh-point-two seconds.

I've got a copy of Form 1/4s stashed in the lids of Pelican cases or pockets of soft bags. If they get damaged, I print another copy. If I had to pull down copies from the cloud via my phone, I could do that if it meant avoiding a nine-hour drive the following week to get back my stuff. If I were toting around a $45k machine gun that I really didn't want locked up in an rural department's "evidence locker" (read: janitors closet) over the weekend, I'd probably have a couple moreredundant layers of coverage, or just tattoo the Form 4 on my arm like the idiots with their vaccination cards.

My sbr is under 26" so that law does not cometely apply. It is both a pistol (and has to be registered and follow registration laws) and NFA so that it also follows MI sbr rule. When I lived in MI, I had the top MI firearms lawyer on retainer, and asked him what the laws were. The laws have since changed (no more MI pistol, a federal rifle but a pistol in MI if overall length was 26 to 28", 28 to 30" for shotguns). Many of my rifles were registered as MI pistols so I could carry them loaded under my cpl. Depending on the police force, in liberal areas they hassle gun owners, and even something like a $100 fine leads to you going to the police station. one city even wanted to outlaw open carry (preemptoon prevents this) so they would lock law abiding vitizens in the back of a vop car for hours while they "checked" the registration status of the pustol. You were not arrested you were detained during the check, totally legal but bs.

 

[TurboTrout]

Great debate going on and needs to be a national discussion.

Realistically, you have to choose your battles. I'm a lawyer so I know. If you want to pay me $350/hr with a $25k non-refundable retainer to preserve your right to tell a cop to "suck my dick," then send me a check and I will represent.

If you have some common sense, you know now is not the time for such a discussion. Those of us

You rate...uhh hope you have the history to back that up, especially for a 1A act that most would take on for contingency, or even the most retardtastic public defender could knock out presuming the PD was dumb enough to make a case over.

How much do you make for your clients for 1A abuses on average?

 

[TexasRekkr]

Exactly... It's just as simple to have a digital copy on my phone INCASE, and then after 5 minutes, and proof, I'm on about my way with all my property still in-hand, and not being detained for acting like a jackass.

I’m sure many in Poland in the 1940’s felt the same way.

 

[Longshot231]

A lot of folks on this thread say that they are using their smart phone to catalog their tax stamps for display to a LEO or ATF Agent when asked.

I would suggest that they NOT do that. Regardless of the reason that you are queried about the legitimacy of the NFA item in your possession when you permit the LEO or ATF Agent, you are giving them an opportunity to look at everything in your smart phone.

What I am saying may depend on the circumstances for the query. If you just happen to be shooting the NFA item and an Agent approaches and says that he or she needs to see the tax stamp, that may be all that there is to it.

They may look at your tax stamp on the smart phone and say have a nice day. On the other hand, they may start scrolling through the phone looking at other stuff you want to be kept private.

Now some of you are saying; "Hold on Longshot! I'm not handing my phone over to them. I will let them look at the screen but they aren't touching it."

Think realistically about what some of you may be thinking. If you hold the phone (with a very small screen) up to the Agent they may say; "I need you to hand over your phone to compare the Form 1/4 to the suppressor."

Go ahead and tell them; "You are not touching my phone without a warrant." Then let me know how that works out for you.

So let's say that you go to show the LEO or Agent your screen then they reach out to grab it out of your hands. Do you really want to get into a tug-of-war over the phone at a shooting range? Think carefully before answering that question without considering the optics. You are both around guns with other people shooting. He or she will be armed. You may also have a sidearm on you as well. Do you really want to go down the path of wrestling with a LEO or ATF Agent?

Now let's say it's something other than a simple query at the shooting range. Let's say you're the subject of mistaken identity and it's a Terry stop. Yes, I know, that doesn't happen that often but what if someone has filed a false complaint on you.

It's happened to me and getting confrontational with a cop cannot not go very well sometimes. The last thing that you want is to argue or fight over whether they can scroll through that phone.

Also remember this, it will be argued in court that when you open and show them the screen on your phone is just like letting a cop without a warrant into your house. Once you have done that, they are free to go anywhere in the house (and phone) that they wish.

Go ahead and try to dig up some SCOTUS cases that prove me wrong. Even if you can find them, you still don't want to end up in court arguing over whether the LEO or Agent had a right to search the rest of your phone.

How many here would really like to entrust their freedom to a judge and jury? I got plenty of time and will wait on your answer

All of my Form 1s and 4s are copied, placed in clear plastic holders in a notebook that is in my vehicle at all times. If a LEO or Agent wants to look at the Tax Stamp, they can scroll through the notebook all day.

Do yourself a favor, the paper copy is a technology that works 100% of the time. Don't put it on your smart phone.

 

[SilencedShooter11B]

I’m from SC and have only been asked to produce paperwork at an outdoor range owned by a company known for being from the Palmetto State...hint hint

Their range, their rules, but I haven’t been back. There’s a range with over twice the length and ten times nicer just down the road and they have no issue with suppressors/SBRs etc

 

[Sasquatch-148]

My first can I puta copy of the paperwork in my glove box with my registration , and a copy in my suppressor pouch . Now I just take a pic and keep it on my phone .

 

[SEB Longrifle1]

After reading all the varied post on this subject, I have a question. Are those folks who accused others, willing to show papers, of weakening the 2nd, guilty of being disingenuous and hypocrites, if they filled out the NFA paperwork?

 

[Longshot231]

After reading all the varied post on this subject, I have a question. Are those folks who accused others, willing to show papers, of weakening the 2nd, guilty of being disingenuous and hypocrites, if they filled out the NFA paperwork?

I don't like the NFA anymore than anyone else on this thread. For now, I'll give them my fingerprints, photo and $200. For now, the government carries a bigger stick than I do.

For those people that do not want to comply with the NFA, be my guest but don't complain if you get caught.

I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes but don't like that fact that over 1/4 of what I give the government goes to feed lazy-ass-welfare-leeches and rag-headed terrorists in other countries. I cannot get away without paying taxes. There are those that have tried that and been caught eventually.

We can debate this facet of 2A rights all day but the thing that pisses me off are the gun owners who have sat on their asses for years and not bothered to contact their congress critters. And don't tell me that it doesn't do any good. I've heard that excuse before.

These same lazy gun owners are the ones that are panic buying the ammo and guns. They are the ones that talk tough about nobody is going to take away their gun rights. I've heard it all before. I use to be really active in the 2A political fights.

I've heard these lazy ass gun owners say something like, "I've got a 30-30 and I KNOW HOW TO USE IT."

Then I tell them that so did Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians. How did that work out for them? Their reply is usually a blank stare.

They talk about putting up a fight with their 30-30 or their AR-15. Then I say that's nice, would you mind writing your Congressman or Senator and letting them know about HB XXX?

Their response is classic. One minute before they are talking about fighting back with their 30-30 then when it comes to contacting their congress critter they reply; "If I do that, their gonna know where I live. I ain't gonna have them come knocking on my door!"

I use to have a table set up at the gun shows letting people know about legislation that affects their 2A rights. I have to keep from laughing my ass off when someone that looks like Junior Samples tells me that if the SHTF then they are "heading for the hills!"

It took every bit of will power on my part not to tell them that they would be buzzard bait because they look like the Pillsbury Dough Boy.

The reality is that people like us that legally possess NFA items are an extremely slim minority. That's obviously true when it comes to all of the US but still more so within the gun owning community.

Other gun owners couldn't give two Hershey squirts about us or any NFA items. So it's not likely that you will see the majority of gun owners showing the Hawaiian good luck sign to the ATF.

So for now, I'll comply with the NFA and leave the tough talking act to the lazy-fat-ass-do-nothing-gun-owners with their 30-30 rifles.

 

[...]

After reading all the varied post on this subject, I have a question. Are those folks who accused others, willing to show papers, of weakening the 2nd, guilty of being disingenuous and hypocrites, if they filled out the NFA paperwork?

No not at all...only if the show it to people who have 0 legal reason to need to see it, out of "convenience".....

The only people that need to see your stamps are the ATF...


but complying with some random tackle-berry's unlawful requests without making him get a warrant because it's easier for you is 100% cowardice

No one in here is making the argument to not follow the NFA

 

[SEB Longrifle1]

Most interesting logic. Leads to another question. If some tackle-berry comes across a person with a sawed off sg or rifle, explosives, or any item on NFA lists he/she must ignore it and let you go on your way cause you think you have some kind of ‘kings x’ ?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Alphabet boys don’t drive in my backyard

 

[Schütze]

Most interesting logic. Leads to another question. If some tackle-berry comes across a person with a sawed off sg or rifle, explosives, or any item on NFA lists he/she must ignore it and let you go on your way cause you think you have some kind of ‘kings x’ ?

No, it just leads to the question why you are not able to read that this thread is about suppressors and their tax stamps. Are you a “tackle-berry“ ?

 

[goosed]

Most interesting logic. Leads to another question. If some tackle-berry comes across a person with a sawed off sg or rifle, explosives, or any item on NFA lists he/she must ignore it and let you go on your way cause you think you have some kind of ‘kings x’ ?

There is a serial # on ALL legal NFA items. No serial #, you go to jail. Nothing to do with "kings x" (WTF that means?). Same applies to firearms.

Just like failure to produce your paperwork (DL or insurance) doesn't mean your car gets automatically impounded... just doesn't work like that. Intent of the law in this case is to assist with identifying ownership/legal status. Even the ATF FAQ's suggestion is to carry paperwork when "transporting"; no mention about paperwork when shooting/using said items.


What external factors caused tackle-berry to get involved in questioning said items in the first place is the far better question?

 

[sleeplz]

I bring a printer and 10 year old computer. Whenever I get asked for paperwork I print them a copy on the spot.

 

[SEB Longrifle1]

It might be hard to accept that something with a serial number can be illegally possessed. Such as a stolen gun or an illegally modified at. Serial numbers don’t make it legal.
That’s real funny about reading. Because it seems from what I’ve read on the last three pages there has been more discussion than tax stamp and suppressors

 

[goosed]

It might be hard to accept that something with a serial number can be illegally possessed. Such as a stolen gun or an illegally modified at. Serial numbers don’t make it legal.
That’s real funny about reading. Because it seems from what I’ve read on the last three pages there has been more discussion than tax stamp and suppressors

Do you carry proof of ownership for every gun each time you go shooting? If not, why not since they could be illegally possessed otherwise? How do you know your proof of ownership is sufficient?

Even if you show tackle-berry NFA paperwork or anything else what registry are they using check/verify said "documents" are legit?


I get it, you're just trying to stir the pot... yet, once again... why is tackle-berry even involved in the first place?

 

[SEB Longrifle1]

I just asked a question initially about disingenuous and hypocrisy and all I’ve gotten is unneeded insults and accusations of being a tackle berry, inability to read, and stirring the pot. But my original question has really not been answered.
Mylast question is : Is this site becoming part of the Cancellation Culture bye not allowing opinions that you don’t like from people you don’t like?

 

[BullGear]

There are some folks who just can't see any other view but their own. Keep the faith and do what you believe to be correct. Nobody is going to pay your mortgage, so do what you feel is the safest thing for you and yours.

 

[...]

Most interesting logic. Leads to another question. If some tackle-berry comes across a person with a sawed off sg or rifle, explosives, or any item on NFA lists he/she must ignore it and let you go on your way cause you think you have some kind of ‘kings x’ ?

if im not breaking any state laws....yes....

"innocent until proven guilty" is still the way we operate in this country.

if there are means to obtain XXXXX item legally, then it is to be presumed that i obtained those items legally....and it is the obligation of LEO to prove otherwise. and unless they have a court order, i do not have to assist them in finding that proof.

a cop can ask for whatever he wants, i do not have to provide it, unless compelled by a warant.

if a cop came up to you on the street and asked to see receipts for your cellphone, "just in case it might be stolen"....would you provide those receipts? or tell him to get fucked?

stamps are not licenses...they are taxes...

 

[...]

There are some folks who just can't see any other view but their own. Keep the faith and do what you believe to be correct. Nobody is going to pay your mortgage, so do what you feel is the safest thing for you and yours.

like i said, you do you.....i just dont want to see any of yall bitching about "covid passports" or "police state" or "mah 2A rights" or "i need a rifle to prevent tyranny!"

as i said before, if you dont have enough of a backbone to ask a cop for a warant, as is your legal right under the constitution.....there is no way you are going to pick up a rifle against a tyranical govt.

if you are going to be complicit in the police state...you do not have a right to complain about said police state.

 

[...]

I just asked a question initially about disingenuous and hypocrisy and all I’ve gotten is unneeded insults and accusations of being a tackle berry, inability to read, and stirring the pot. But my original question has really not been answered.
Mylast question is : Is this site becoming part of the Cancellation Culture bye not allowing opinions that you don’t like from people you don’t like?

oh stop, no one is cancelling you cupcake......telling you to stop being a little bitch is hardly "canceling you"

 

[SEB Longrifle1]

So this site is open to juvenile behavior and some can’t handle being called on the childish commentary

 

[goosed]

So this site is open to juvenile behavior and some can’t handle being called on the childish commentary

 

[SEB Longrifle1]

Google "Tongue in cheek"......

 

[SEB Longrifle1]

It’s been fun chatting with you nice to know who are the people worth listening to and the ones who have little to offer for good advice. I just don’t know if my delicate self esteem can take the likes of young mcameron. Goosed you might be smarter than you look regarding the pot stirring
mcameron I promise not to tell anyone your GAY if you don’t tell anyone I’m an old has been tackle berry.

 

[...]

It’s been fun chatting with you nice to know who are the people worth listening to and the ones who have little to offer for good advice. I just don’t know if my delicate self esteem can take the likes of young mcameron. Goosed you might be smarter than you look regarding the pot stirring
mcameron I promise not to tell anyone your GAY if you don’t tell anyone I’m an old has been tackle berry.

jokes on you retard, the forum already knows im not adverse to cock.

 

[Huskydriver]

jokes on you retard, the forum already knows im not adverse to cock.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

This "I don't have to" is great in theory, but here is what really goes on.

Police can start an investigation if they have a " Reasonable Suspicion", they do not need "Probable Cause" or a warrant. It is actually their job, to look for things that are suspicious.

Guy breaking into a car- investigate, not say it could be his car.

Reasonable suspicion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So here is a hypothetical for the if you cooperate with police the Gestapo will make us wear masks crowd.

A range owner calls police:

" this guy comes in and starts a rant about masks with my regular customers, gets on the range and pulls out one of the silencers that are homemade and requires a form 1 to be legal. I ask to see the form 1 and he goes off about his rights and how the government is all fucked up.

I want him to leave and be warned of tresspass not to ever return."

It could also just be seeing a suppressor on a rifle in the backseat and the department is investigating a theft of some.

Now the cop need to determine if these are the droids we are looking for.

No cop wants to be the one that had the criminal in front of them and let them go because they didn't bother to check that things were on the up and up.

You can make cops out to be mindless tools of policy, or power drunk idiots, but you would be wrong for all but a few bad actors.

And if you drive through a two cop towns speed trap and decide to tell the sheriff about how you don't need to show him your tax stamp. Please use your time waiting for the judge to tell us about it.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

And can we please stop the high school "Your Gay", "No Your Gay" stupidity.

Everyone here has family, coworkers and friends that are good people and gay. If you can't name anyone in your life who is gay, it is because they think you are to bigoted to come out to.