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Suppressors how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Two comments:

1. The possessive form of its is "its."
2. You watch too many movies. The .45 doesn't have any more "freight train" like qualities than a 9mm with quality bullets. I personally don't think capacity matters, so I won't fault you for carrying a 6 round gun. I would say, however, that if you think that just because it's a .45, it's necessarily a better man stopper, I think you're dead wrong. </div></div>

Wow - I thought I was posting on Sniper's Hide and not Grammar Patrol.com. I'll slowly wiggle my Monday morning keyboard quarterback self out of my naugahyde covered tactical LazyBoy and go peek outside and make sure the BGATF (Bureau of Grammar, Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms) isn't conducting a raid on my abode for improper usage of an apostrophe without the proper paperwork.

If the .45 isn't freight train like then I'd better change my opinion of it. Maybe I should have said "I love the freight train like qualities of the man stopping 32 ACP so that is why I carry it." Actually I could care less what I carry as long as I carry something. Somedays I'll carry a .22LR pistol, other days it's (note correct usage of the apostrophe - I learn fast) a G17 or G26 with +P+ loads, or sometimes it's (once again correct usage, can't fool me twice) a S&W BodyGuard .357 Mag. Maybe I should try and carry all of them at once since the .45 just won't do the job. Oh.... and it's a 7 round pistol with one in the pipe.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Decent single stack 9mm? Hmmmm HK P7 series maybe? Oh yeah. Perfect for concealed carry.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

If you are some where you need the 16th&17th round you screwed up majorly!!!95% OF ALL ccw SHOOTINGS are less than 6rds. Having a CCW IS NOT !!!! a license to go looking for a gunfight . They are NOT video games where everbody gets back up at the push of the refresh button!!!If you feel you need a major capacity weapon maybe you should rethink why you are carrying .Your responsibility as a ccw holder is defence of yourself and loved ones . Leave the rambo assaults to those trained in that profession .As for my daily carry (primary) Sig Blackwater 1911w/230gr. HornadyDefence rds.,( backup) Colt Defender1911 w/same loads, Gladius light ,2 spare mags. It is not the 10th-17th rounds that matter. It's the first 2-3. As Clint Smith said" 1 is none,2 is 1 and 3 is 2" It is better to have a backup weapon if primary fails to go BANG , than to put your whole life in the trust of one hi-cap weapon.ANYONE can take someones life, there are less that can live with it after it's over!Be careful it may not be what you think it is going to be . LIFE ISN'T A VIDEO GAME!!!
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

booyaaa!!! nail their ass to the wall Grim. Damn, if it's not the fashion police it's the BATFPC (Bureau of Alcohol,Tobacco, Firearms and potatochips) now it's the damn grammarpolice. What happened to the place where bros with a common interest could bullshit with each other and not be chastised by their sixth grade english teacher !!!!! I'll raise a ice cold adult beverage to you Grim.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Capacity is just another benefit to be weighed. For me, it weighs quite a bit. In a handgun I want as many rounds as possible to get a stop via CNS or other. For this reason I carry a FS M&P9.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't read every response in this thread, so if someone has covered my answer/reasoning...than I commend you
grin.gif


The argument of shot placement and capacity is age old, but envision this...

If you are shooting 3" groups on a paper trgt at 25yds from the bench seated (I can't do that)
then...
Stand up and see if you can maintain that 3" group
now...
shoot at that same trgt moving left, right, forward and backwards...still shooting 3" groups? (I think not).
now...
imagine that you are moving and now your trgt is moving too...how much bigger did your group get now that your trgt is moving too?
now...
imagine that you are moving and your trgt is moving, only this time your trgt is shooting back at you...how much greater did your group open up now???
now...
imagine that you are moving, your trgt is moving and shooting at you, their are obstacles and cover between you and your trgt.
now...
imagine that you are moving, your trgt is moving and shooting at you from behind obstacles in a low-light environment.

Shot placement is obviously important for obvious reasons, but dump real-world factors in the mix and you're a fool to negate capacity may it be a high-cap gun or extra mags .
</div></div>
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see the advantage to capacity, I still carry a single stack.
</div></div>

Great post, MZB, and this sums it up for me too.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: anthony20031</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also wanted a pistol that had good capacity becuase I more often than not, do not carry spare magazines and having 17+1, is a nice comfort even though I know more likely than not I will not need nearly that amount (I hope). </div></div>

The purpose for a second magazine isn't only for spare ammo, it's also for the mag itself. The magazine is the most easily and frequently damaged part of the system, and the middle of a gunfight with no spare would be a tough place to find that your previously perfect magazine now had a tweaked feed lip, the spring had finally given up, or the follower was hanging up on a spot of rust. I was running the timer for a newer shooter at a local competition the other day, and in the middle of a stage he kept having malfunctions. Sand in the mag or it got stepped on or something, it doesn't matter, drop it and grab another one. I have dedicated carry mags that I don't beat up, but it's still not a guarantee. </div></div>

Yes very true about the mag. Maybe I should really rethink carrying an extra mag
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

If I'm comparing two very similar guns, i.e. caliber, weight, physical size, then I will take it into consideration. But choose a gun solely on capacity? No.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

For me, capacity isn't the only factor when choosing my CCW. Most of the time, I'll carry a 1911 with 8+1 capacity and an extra mag. On occasion, my G17 (17+1) or Sig P226 BWT (20+1) is carried on my hip. Whatever I choose, I must be confident that it's reliable. Shot placement is more important than a ton of rounds. However, you may need those extra rounds for multiple threats, etc.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBoss0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Decent single stack 9mm? Hmmmm HK P7 series maybe? Oh yeah. Perfect for concealed carry. </div></div>

Friend loaned me one last year and I carried it quite a bit. It's a little heavier than a Glock 19, but it's single action and single stack. It really doesn't get much better than that!
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Even though capacity may trail in importance to mindset, training, preparedness, etc. There are still many reasons to err on the side of having more than less.

I haven't followed the whole thread but DK is dead on. The only rounds that count are those that you can put on target. You may be firing those rounds one handed as your other arm is full of loved one and you are hauling ass to cover. Do you want a few mulligans in that situation.

For those that think "oh I have all the capacity I need in my gun" have you considered a malfunction that negates the one magazine you have and now you are without a spare. on and on it goes.

Regardless of all the things you have read and or seen the statistics for, YOUR encounter will most likely be very different than you imagined it. Therefor I would suggest erring on the side of having more of everything (training, practice, mindset) to include capacity.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

My encounter may be different, but I have 16 rounds usually, not 3. It should be more than enough.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Man, you can tell (by some of the statements made on this thread) who has actually played on a two-way range and lived to tell about it and who has not. Those who have not probably shouldn't be stating opinion as fact. I'd strongly suggest that anyone looking for good input on this subject should pay close attention to both DK's and Smokshwn's posts. Both of them are spot on!! Great info and food for thought based on personal experience was shared in both posts!! Thats not to say that others postings don't have any merit, but experience speaks volumes...especially when it comes to this particular subject. Plan for Mr Murphy to show his ugly head in a deadly force situation. There is no such thing as being over-prepared!!

Chad

 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

^^^ +1 Especially true here in the Southwest, where there are multiple bad actors to contend with.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the tactics of CCW are similar to those of the "two way range." I can shoot pretty fast, but I can't imagine a scenario in which I'd hang around long enough to empty my gun. Perhaps I lack imagination, or perhaps you guys watch too many movies.....or are convinced that the American streets look like a war zone.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I like my glock Hi-caps, don't really worry about the weight, doesn't affect me much... the more rounds the better, IMHO.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the tactics of CCW are similar to those of the "two way range." I can shoot pretty fast, but I can't imagine a scenario in which I'd hang around long enough to empty my gun. Perhaps I lack imagination, or perhaps you guys watch too many movies.....or are convinced that the American streets look like a war zone. </div></div>

With all that you lack, it is no surprise that you can't imagine a scenario with more than one bad actor or say some significant distance between the event and cover/safety, or maybe even the protection of loved ones who can't unass the X (old or young) the way you may want to, on and on and on. I can think of at least 100 things that would intervene in the idea that I will simply remove myself from the situation.

But as usual, don't let your lack of knowledge, experience, or training stop you from showing off exactly how much you don't know.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but I can't imagine a scenario in which I'd hang around long enough to empty my gun.</div></div>

I'm always conjuring up scenarios in my hand where shit has catastrophically gone wrong
grin.gif
</div></div>

DK, come on now, that can't be any fun. You can post with so much more authority on the subject if you only conjure shit up in your head where shit goes catastrophically right...Follow zeros example, if you can't imagine it, it won't happen
laugh.gif
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but I can't imagine a scenario in which I'd hang around long enough to empty my gun.</div></div>
What if you didn't have a choice how long you hung around, ie. shot in the leg, etc.

Can you shoot weak-hand as well as you can strong-hand? I sure as hell can't and if I injured my right arm or my strong hand...I'd have to shoot weak-hand in which case I'd definitely want some extra rounds for since my accuracy sucks left-handed.

I'm always conjuring up scenarios in my hand where shit has catastrophically gone wrong
grin.gif
</div></div>

I definitely can't shoot weak hand as well as I do strong hand, but that's one thing that USPSA teaches you...to become better at both.

I have started carrying an extra magazine more than I used to, and I did carry one 100% of the time when I carried the P7.

I think I'd rather have an armed friend with me than an extra magazine if anything bad happens, though!
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

DK I may be reading badly but what I got from your link was 6 were held at gunpoint (victims I assume) 4 arrested (at least 4 perps) 1 person went to hospital from punch to face (not a bullet as far as I can tell)

It sounds bad enough already but I do not see anything like shots fired or people shot.

I know bad guys run in groups and my very limited personal sampling has been 2 or more per incedent.

I am positive your experence is far beyond mine and I think your trying to say that anyone should expect to be out numbered when this kind of thing goes down. I concur and believe most civilians do not expect it or train with this in mind.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Anytime you have bullets flying your way you are playing on a two way range, whether its as a cop, ccw holder, or military. A gunfight is a gunfight and you damn well better be prepared in case anything goes wrong. If it doesn't go wrong, thats one less thing you have to worry about. Its NOT a shooting competition, and real lives are on the line in a firefight. There are no do overs.

Chad
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think your trying to say that anyone should expect to be out numbered when this kind of thing goes down. I concur and believe most civilians do not expect it or train with this in mind.
</div></div>

A. Most folks that own firearms don't "train"; most of them don't even carry a firearm everywhere / everyday; and most are only semi cognizant of others in their immediate surroundings - let alone cognizant and constantly scanning for exits and hard cover. Everyone should read SouthNarc's PSP on 'Managing Unknown Contacts' and consider how YOU manage unknown contacts.

B. Most folks unconsciously negate the one major draw back of training sessions on (most any) square range, and confuse it with real life - thus they think in terms of a 180 field of view. It is rare to see people on a sq range doing 360 scans after a COF.

C. Getting back to what people should expect, expect everything and expect nothing. My today was - arms length to 50 yrds (100 w/ a carbine); SH only, WH only and freestyle; spint forward, backward, and laterals (laterals to my left suck - esp with a carbine); multiple targets, carbine to handgun transitions, hostage shots with only 1/3 of the eye box visible from the 10 and 15. On the way out, a couple of the other guys had a vehicle COF set up that ended al la North Hollywood - at 20 yrds: roll over prone under your vehicle, hit the leg (bowling pins)- the only thing visible under the car in the distance, which in turn actuated the silhouette to fall under that car - put two rounds on that target while it is down.

You need to be able to shoot A's - any time, any distance, either hand, standing, sitting, laying down, running.....It doesn't happen magically, you gotta put the work in - consistently.



Good luck
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I have spoken to the cop/neighbor of that church who was the first responder, in T-shirt, shorts, and vest.

As a civilian it's still hard to imagine the courage to run to the shooting.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

What does "have enough ammo" really mean, though?

If I carry the P7 + extra mag, I have 19 rounds. If I carry the Glock 19 and nothing else, I have 16. An extra mag brings that to 31. Is 16 enough? How about 19? 31? My friend usually carries two spare G17 mags and his pistol for a total of almost 50 rounds. Is that too much?

If I was planning on running towards the fight, I'd want a LOT more ammo on my person. But I'm not in the military anymore, I don't hang out in dark allies at 3 am, I'm not a gang banger or a drug dealer, and the public isn't paying me to run towards a wall of bullets. I'm also 5'5" and 150 pounds. I DO carry a gun every time I leave the house for any reason, which makes me more prepared than over 98% of the population. I also refuse to carry a gun unless it is .38/9mm or larger.

I guess what this all comes down to is line drawing and practicality. I could carry more than one gun, a lot of ammo, etc. Usually I choose to carry a single pistol with 16 rounds. And I still think I'm a much better sheepdog armed with that than the cowards who don't carry at all.

It's really not an easy question to answer at all.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Maybe it is just me or b/c I have been walking around with a single stack for too long - but I carry two spare mags at the 9:00 regardless if it is a single stack, a BHP or a G17. It balances out the weight of pistol and the loaded mag. Again, spare mags are as much about ammo as they are about a mechanical contraption that can fail - so you should carry a spare.


As an additional plug - always carry a knife. Consider a flashlight as well - even in the day time.


Good luck
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Capacity is very important to me for reasons stated by DK.
You never know, and yes I've had instances where mags fail. It's just so much easier to dump and move on to the next mag. This is why I carry not one but 2 spare mags...18rnd mags. So all in all in my p226 (my everyday all day ccw) I have 19 rnds, plus the 36 on my hip. And yes, I think 55 is enough..lol
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Capacity is very important to me for reasons stated by DK.
You never know, and yes I've had instances where mags fail. It's just so much easier to dump and move on to the next mag. This is why I carry not one but 2 spare mags...18rnd mags. So all in all in my p226 (my everyday all day ccw) I have 19 rnds, plus the 36 on my hip. And yes, I think 55 is enough..lol </div></div>

Granted, I won't make too many assumptions as to what you do for a living. Can you please present to me a rational real-life ccw scenario that would justify the necessity to carry 55 rounds of 9mm? And while I do advocate the carry of a spare mag due to the fact it is one of the weaker links in the chain of handgun functionality, do you honestly believe that you need a third that 66% of your gear could fail?

I know HK recommends that their jet funnel/ultra high cap white mags not be used for duty or defense. I have only ever seen the Sig 19 rounders to be used with the xfive (competition based). You might be right in the fact that you carry so many mags. A reasonable man might think that you may be sacrificing something for those few extra rounds.

And not to poke fun (I have a 226 9mm and love it), but why the 9mm and a ton of ammo?
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

So we actually agree, okay. I usually carry my G19 without a spare mag. When I've carried a single stack pistol, I usually do carry a spare mag.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I <span style="font-style: italic">like</span> high capacity and big bullets. Buuuuuuut.........carrying a high cap 45 is not really fun, or even practical in some cases. As has been mentioned time and again, shot placement is final, so an easily concealable gun in a decent caliber with a quality bullet that I can shoot with precision under difficult circumstances gives me more of a feeling of security than a clubby wunder-whatever.

For concealed carry in cold weather, I favor a lightweight 1911 in 45. In hot weather, I carry a Ruger LCR. In both instances, I carry spare ammo; a mag for the slabside, and two speedloaders for the wheelgun. I practice reloading under stress to make up for the lack of capacity.

I cast my own bullets and handload so I can afford to shoot plenty of rounds. I dry fire practice. I practice speedloads in the dark after doing pushups. I practice point shooting, from the shoulder and from the hip. Weak hand, strong hand, from around cover, under cover, sitting, kneeling, etc. I shoot competition and am constantly striving to improve.

I don't feel handicapped by the lack of capacity of my concealed carry pieces. I can, however, see where extra ammo could be a boon for someone unable or unwilling to put in as much time, effort, and ammunition practicing. This includes most LEOs and military personnel. I also have personal experience with a situation that may have required a substantial number of rounds (six moral reprobates giving serious consideration to taking my new Jeep while I was still in it).

So while I see both sides of the issue, I personally sacrifice capacity for concealability and user-friendliness.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I like a .45ACP in the Sig220 but I also like to have a little more ammo so I opt for the Sig229 in .40S&W. I don't think I'd ever carry a 9mm by choice no matter how much ammo one could carry. I carry daily and always have one spare mag for a totla of 25 rounds available if trouble finds me.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

This isn't a debate about caliber. If it were, I would show empirically that there is no benefit to carrying a .40 or .45 over a 9mm. Leave that out of this and stick to the topic.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Carrying extra mags should be common sense and accuracy is final. Practice BOTH. Spray and pray (not considering the path of one's bullets and just spraying an area, which differs from 'place and pray' - spray an area "safely placing the rds" and pray you get from point A to B, etc.) is not an acceptable CCW technique, but neither is dumb and dumber (carrying no extra mags).

I normally carry a 1911 w/ two spare mags on my person (extras in the glove box of each car, etc.). I also carry a S&W 357 in the 'ol front pocket as a back up (ammo wallet in rear pocket). How much spare ammo one carries should depend upon their level of proficiency, where they are going (at times I carry a NY back-up - i.e. two 1911s + the 357), and their comfort level, etc.

Carrying no extra mags is not good. Murphy's law dictates that you will never have enough ammo and be: outgunned, outnumbered, out-trained, and/or lose use of your strong hand. Most will probably never be in a situation where they need to use their pistol, but you'll be happy that you are carrying if you become one of the selected few. The same is true of carrying extra mags. You <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">may</span></span> never need one, but ...

From 2009:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yesterday, while attending a music program at an open-air amphitheater, I shifted in my seat and experienced a catastrophic failure of the magazine inserted in my G27, which I was carrying concealed in an IWB holster.

The magazine base-cap broke and fell off. The magazine spring and follower immediately fell out, along with several rounds. The rest of the rounds remained within the magazine shell, still locked in the pistol's magazine well.

Happily, the only two people aware of the problem were me and my oldest daughter, who was sitting directly behind me. As discreetly as possible, I removed the shell, and remaining loose rounds from the pistol, and, with my wife's assistance, recovered the spring and follower, all as I remained
seated, trying to look as normal as possible.

My G27 stayed in the holster. With the shell and loose rounds cleared from the magazine well, I quietly inserted my spare magazine. Ultimately, only two people, besides me, knew what had happened.

We enjoyed the rest of the concert and returned home without further incident.

Lesson: Always carry at least one spare magazine, not only so that you can reload, but also so that you can get your pistol back into service when the magazine that is already in it, breaks!</div></div> There are several ways to carry extra mags comfortably. Of course, the standard carry, then something like a Safariland 123 (i.e. horizontal carry), in your pocket, or even on your ankle.

Some Carriers:
Holsters.jpg


NY Back-up: (learn to shoot with your non-dominate hand ...)
DSC_0001.jpg


TGL makes a double 1911 holster called "Double Trouble" (I could not find a pic) and then Bell Charter Oaks makes:
nyrrev.JPG

nyr21911.JPG

Last I checked, a full size coffin weights more than an extra weapon or magazine.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Less is not more.

In my travels, I've been in contact with many Former Marines, of whom a considerable number ended up in LE. When discussing their use of force experiences, there is a common theme. Essentially, a lot of them confess that the first two or three rounds end up in the dirt somwhere between the perp and the LE, a direct result of adrenaline surge.

You can train for this and you can train for that, but until that first round cracks past you nearby, you still don't get it. The idea is you shoot them until they go down. Their adrenaline works <span style="font-style: italic">for</span> them and your adrenaline works <span style="font-style: italic">against</span> you. Putting fire at them balances the equation somewhat; but for reality's sake, assume that your hit/miss ratio just got divided by three. At least.

Greg
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I really don't think that's an accurate assessment at all. Adrenaline doesn't just work against you. There's a reason why it is part our natural response to fight or flight. The difference between a warrior and a wannabe is learning to manage that adrenaline response and use it in your favor.

I've never seen a video of a police use of force incident where the first two to three rounds hit the dirt. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've watched enough of these videos to know it if was a serious problem.

CCW isn't a war zone or a police use of force incident anyway. There has to be some reasonable line drawing.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Capacity is very important to me for reasons stated by DK.
You never know, and yes I've had instances where mags fail. It's just so much easier to dump and move on to the next mag. This is why I carry not one but 2 spare mags...18rnd mags. So all in all in my p226 (my everyday all day ccw) I have 19 rnds, plus the 36 on my hip. And yes, I think 55 is enough..lol </div></div>

Granted, I won't make too many assumptions as to what you do for a living. Can you please present to me a rational real-life ccw scenario that would justify the necessity to carry 55 rounds of 9mm? And while I do advocate the carry of a spare mag due to the fact it is one of the weaker links in the chain of handgun functionality, do you honestly believe that you need a third that 66% of your gear could fail?

I know HK recommends that their jet funnel/ultra high cap white mags not be used for duty or defense. I have only ever seen the Sig 19 rounders to be used with the xfive (competition based). You might be right in the fact that you carry so many mags. A reasonable man might think that you may be sacrificing something for those few extra rounds.

And not to poke fun (I have a 226 9mm and love it), but why the 9mm and a ton of ammo?

</div></div>

For those few extra rounds I am sacrificing a little comfort, but like Greg said, it's a lot lighter than a cop or a coffin. Also like DZ, this isn't a discussion on cal. I'll accept that 9mm allows for more cap. than a 45, so when you're talking about capacity, the cal. does have a little bearing on the discussion. So why the 9mm and a ton of ammo? Because it's a far sight easier to carry than a .45 and a ton of ammo. So if I'm being asked if I believe I will need 55 round in a use of deadly force situation, I say hell no. I also doubt I will need my spare tire today...so should I leave it at home? After all I can still have a flat and not have it be a life or death situation.

I don't want to be that one guy.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: squirrelsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Capacity for a CCW is more important to me than the capacity of a duty weapon. That may sound a little odd, but here's why...
With my duty rig, I can carry plenty of extra mags (typically 4 or more for a single-stack 1911) plus a small back-up gun. With CCW stuff, I'll likely only have one spare mag, as any more than that becomes harder to hide than the gun itself.

I have carried only a 5-shot snubby on several occasions when nothing else could be hidden, but it's not my preferred choice, it's a back-up to a real gun.

The theory of making every shot count sounds good, and at one time I believed in that very thing and thought it ridiculous that someone whould need more than 5rds to save their ass. While that may hold true when someone else is in danger and you are going on the offensive to protect them, when <span style="font-weight: bold">you</span> are the primary target and responding to an immediate threat toward yourself, you'll likely waste the first few rounds in an adrenaline-fueled response.

I carry a G19 (15+1) and one spare mag.</div></div>

Macho BS aside, I think there's something to this. The guns are small enough now that if you can carry a 100 round magazine, why not? If it's over in 1 round, awesome, if it takes 99, I'd rather have it.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This isn't a debate about caliber. If it were, I would show empirically that there is no benefit to carrying a .40 or .45 over a 9mm. Leave that out of this and stick to the topic. </div></div>

The sad fact to this thread is no matter how imaginative you are or empirical your data, the gunfight doesn't give a shit what you think you know.

To paraphrase Louis Awerbuck....There are no absolutes, select the best potential equipment for the mission, prepare yourself, and roll the dice.

Anything else is just you trying to comfort your denial.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

This thread is like a train-wreck...I can't seem to look away!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can train for this and you can train for that...but for reality's sake, assume that your hit/miss ratio just got divided by three. At least.
</div></div>
Bingo!!! Larry Vickers says this in just about every course he teaches.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The difference between a warrior and a wannabe is learning to manage that adrenaline response and use it in your favor.</div></div>
I think the difference between a warrior and a wanna-be is <span style="font-weight: bold">courage & commitment</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">I've never seen a video</span> of a police use of force incident where the first two to three rounds hit the dirt. <span style="color: #FF0000">I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've watched enough of these videos to know</span> it if was a serious problem.</div></div>
...and here in lies the fallacy of your own statement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CCW isn't a war zone or a police use of force incident anyway.</div></div>
Define CCW in your terms? ...all it means to me is Concealed Carry Weapon.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't think that's an accurate assessment at all. Adrenaline doesn't just work against you. There's a reason why it is part our natural response to fight or flight. The difference between a warrior and a wannabe is learning to manage that adrenaline response and use it in your favor.</div></div>

So how do you define someone who continues to make absolute statements without any frame of reference or experience....warrior or wannabe?



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've never seen a video of a police use of force incident where the first two to three rounds hit the dirt. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've watched enough of these videos to know it if was a serious problem.</div></div>

The hit ratios in the vast majority of OIS' is relatively low. In your infinite wisdom and real world experience of video viewing, would you care to share with us where numerous rounds in OIS' do end up? (hint very many do not connect with the intended target)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> CCW isn't a war zone or a police use of force incident anyway. There has to be some reasonable line drawing. </div></div>

Why do insist on this line of thought that putting a gun into use during a lethal force encounter somehow changes drastically if it happens to be in an IWB covered by a baggy shirt?
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CCW isn't a war zone or a police use of force incident anyway.</div></div>
Define CCW in your terms? ...all it means to me is Concealed Carry Weapon. </div></div>

DK I think you already explained quite well to DZ that a gunfight is a gunfight is a gunfight.

Simply having a gun ceases to be that once a use of deadly force situation arises. Then it DOES become a war. Is there a difference between police use of deadly force and civilian use of deadly force? Since we're going all statistical and shit.... Do I even really need to carry at all?
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Is there a difference? You bet your ass there is! I don't get paid to run towards a wall of bullets anymore. I CCW so that I can defend myself and get the hell out of there.

If you don't think that there's a remarkable difference between CCW and police tactics, I just pray that you're never put in a situation.

You might not think they're different, but a jury definitely will.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I can't speak about courage. Courage would seem to me to make a difference if there are options, but when you're ambushed, there are damned few of them. If it ain't an ambush, it's outside my experience, and I have no knowledge of it.

Even after the fact, I found it virtually impossible to find a significant role for courage, or to determine whether what happened had anything to do with it. Courage is a word, a mental concept, fighting for your life is visceral and has very little to do with words.

In my opinon, the less one has to know about these things the better; but life deals us what life wants, and not what we want.

Training helps, and forms one of the legs of one's preparedness. The other is having adequate implements. The rest is not up to us. Survival is not a tripod, it has only two legs; and is no more secure than the specific pair of legs <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> stand on.

I did my job and I survived. In truth, I really don't know much more about it now than I did as a Greenie FNG, but I <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> know right now, enough is as much as you can carry, and not one round less.

What you don't use then, you'll probably use later. Combat patrols are not organized into easy segments. Just 'cause you got through one firefight doesn't mean you're done with firefights for the day.

Nobody I know ever died from carrying too much ammo. Woulda', coulda', shoulda' is not a lifesaving strategy.

The biggest killer of American Soldiers has always been their own simplistic assumptions. I don't know what comes next and anyone who tells me they do, I keep away from.

I've been laughed at for being cagy, jumpy, and suspicious; and I <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> had opportunity to laugh back at a corpse or two.

You don't like my thinking, more power to you. Genuine best luck with your approach. Mine's worked OK for me so far.

These days, as I said earlier, I don't carry firepower. Yes, I'm vulnerable. For what it's worth, I carry a pocketknife, and that ain't worth much. I manage my survival by managing my risk. You don't find me on the NY Subway anymore these days. Keeps me smarter, maybe smart enough to avoid trouble in the first place. Awshuckin' may have a place after all. Maybe not; that's what the knife is for. Better'n nothin'; even if just a little.

Greg
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

People should seriously sit down and ask themselves if they have a moral obligation to defend someone that is facing a life or death threat of violence from another - I say we do. When shots go off in the mall (or anywhere else) - are you really going to join the rest of cattle and stampede for the door? Call me funny but IMNSHO if the situation is black and white - innocents being victimized and you possess the skill - you have a moral obligation to find the will to do what you can to end it. Not saying it is going to be easy, just saying that it is my belief that we are morally obligated. Look into the eyes of a child and say it ain't so.

Things that are spot on:

SmokShwn:

<span style="font-style: italic">To paraphrase Louis Awerbuck....There are no absolutes, select the best potential equipment for the mission, prepare yourself, and roll the dice.</span>

GregL:

<span style="font-style: italic">You can train for this and you can train for that...but for reality's sake, assume that your hit/miss ratio just got divided by three. At least.</span>

DK: <span style="font-style: italic">this thread is a train wreck</span>

IMHO the short answer is this - capacity is a smart move given that (with the best projectiles) there is no real effective difference between 9mm and .45ACP, 9mm is often lighter and smaller, more controllable, as well as cheaper to practice with. Capacity also (may) mean no / few mag changes - yet another skill set that needs consistent work. Bottom line, while capacity gives you more chances to end an attack, mindset and skillset are what are most important. Everything else is for idle conversation.

I see the advantage of capacity, I carry a single stack and two spare mags.


Good luck
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a difference? You bet your ass there is! I don't get paid to run towards a wall of bullets anymore. I CCW so that I can defend myself and get the hell out of there.
</div></div>

so you're not taking the time to make sure your bullets go where you intend? Are you spray and praying while retreating? Are you trying to make those rounds have a positive effect on target rather than becoming a liability? Or do you make sure the threat is neutralized first?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you don't think that there's a remarkable difference between CCW and police tactics, I just pray that you're never put in a situation.</div></div>


police.... put rounds on target while trying to keep from being liability.
anyone else....put rounds on target while trying to keep from being a liability.
The tactics for drawing and firing on a deadly threat are the same no matter who you are.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You might not think they're different, but a jury definitely will. </div></div>

this is completely beyond the topic of conversation. A jury has no bearing on how anyone deals with use of deadly force situation until after it's already over.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I don't think of misses as wasted rounds.

In an earlier thread, I made mention of fire-and-maneuver warfare, and the influence it has on statistics. Yes, a lot of rounds get fired for each enemy casualty, but the proportion of that fire which constitutes covering fire is absolutely never wasted.

Incoming fire, accurate or near accurate, has a direct influence on outcomes. It causes a shooter to miss and it causes a shooter to favor cover. I know it does these things because it's done it to me. Ignoring it is a coin that has two sides; courage and blissful stupidity. In no small number of circumstances, they are one and the same. Courage is incredibly overrated. Clear thought outweighs it by a mile, and is one of the scarcest commodities on the planet, even in the most peaceful of times.

So spray and pray has its benefits. Easy to go shame, shame. Less easy to say I've been there, not least of all because many who where can't say anything.

I owe my presence here today to many others who fit that description. We honor them this weekend.

There is no substitute for decisive firepower.

Greg
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People should seriously sit down and ask themselves if they have a moral obligation to defend someone that is facing a life or death threat of violence from another - I say we do. When shots go off in the mall (or anywhere else) - are you really going to join the rest of cattle and stampede for the door? Call me funny but IMNSHO if the situation is black and white - innocents being victimized and you possess the skill - you have a moral obligation to find the will to do what you can to end it. Not saying it is going to be easy, just saying that it is my belief that we are morally obligated. Look into the eyes of a child and say it ain't so.

Things that are spot on:

SmokShwn:

<span style="font-style: italic">To paraphrase Louis Awerbuck....There are no absolutes, select the best potential equipment for the mission, prepare yourself, and roll the dice.</span>

GregL:

<span style="font-style: italic">You can train for this and you can train for that...but for reality's sake, assume that your hit/miss ratio just got divided by three. At least.</span>

DK: <span style="font-style: italic">this thread is a train wreck</span>

IMHO the short answer is this - capacity is a smart move given that (with the best projectiles) there is no real effective difference between 9mm and .45ACP, 9mm is often lighter and smaller, more controllable, as well as cheaper to practice with. Capacity also (may) mean no / few mag changes - yet another skill set that needs consistent work. Bottom line, while capacity gives you more chances to end an attack, mindset and skillset are what are most important. Everything else is for idle conversation.

I see the advantage of capacity, I carry a single stack and two spare mags.


Good luck </div></div>
I like this guys ideas, they fit well with my own.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

Most serious guys I know carry at least one extra mag. That's my input. Add 40 hours of training to that and the odds might start leaning in your favor, whatever situation arises.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

the stopping power % difference between good 9mm ammo, good 40 ammo, good 45 ammo is around 1 to 5% ie. the one shot stopping data collected by evan marshall.

9 is ~91%
40 is ~94%
45 is 96%
10mm and 357sig are in that area too.

That's just one shot to the chest. So out of 100 incidents 91 times out of 100 9mm is going to stop with one shot and 96 times out of 100 with 45. Are you going to shoot them one time only and take the risk? You can if you want but I'm not goin to.

Now figure in the fact that your likely going to miss etc.

Figure in the fact that you'll be under stress etc etc.

Give me something I can shoot well in any situation and has a lot of bullets.
 
Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think of misses as wasted rounds.



So spray and pray has its benefits. Easy to go shame, shame. Less easy to say I've been there, not least of all because many who where can't say anything.


Greg</div></div>
I never commented on pros and cons of spray and pray, nor did I ever mention covering fire. But, since you brought it up, I agree. The only other thing I have on this is that in a urban situation, whether it be in war or a self defense situation, loose rounds have the potential of becoming liabilities. It's one's responsibility to do ones best to try and make sure this doesn't happen.
 
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