how long do you keep your brass in the sizing die?

[Winny94]

I've been reading up on nuanced tips/tricks/advice to continue refining my loading practices and read several account of holding the brass in the sizing die for a 2, 3, 4 etc count to reduce spring/increase consistency.
Does anyone here do that and how long of a hold is preferred?

 

[bjay]

(FL)Sizing die needs warm up..you dont get actual shoulder bump till maybe after first 5-10 brass (using imperial wax lube) i always hold 2-4 second for my first 4-5 brass till it start giving consistent shoulder bump..if you dont do this you first 5-8 brass wont be the same as the rest of the brass..as inside sizer need to be totally lubed up..i always cleaned lube inside sizind die after using it..
Unless your die only sizing entire brass less than .001

 

[McHaggis]

I’ve found that it’s also important how you do the up stroke of the handle. If you go too fast it seems to stretch the brass back up and gives inconsistent bump. That’s what I’ve experienced anyway.

 

[RackOpsTactical]

I give it a pause at the top of the stroke. I'm not sure that it matters as much as being consistent in the pressure and speed of each stroke of the handle. Going fast sometimes and slow others is not good.

I think it does matter to do a 4 or 5 count on a mandrel die.

 

[TF160 Guy]

I put one piece in the die and while at the top of the stroke, I apply Imperial resizing wax to the next piece. Give the brass about 4 or 5 seconds. Won't work if you spray.

 

[Milo 2.5]

IME, brass coming out of the chamber is never the same size, or bump length unless your bump is tight, like a half thou.
Having consistent lube does every bit a holding pattern will do.

 

[Bradu]

IME, brass coming out of the chamber is never the same size, or bump length unless your bump is tight, like a half thou.
Having consistent lube does every bit a holding pattern will do.

I've had issues keeping consistent shoulder bumps from lack of lube as you mentioned. My biggest problem was not moving the inside of the case mouths enough. I noticed the most when I got my Giraud trimmer and found if I stood the cases up and sprayed the mouths with lanolin, that my problem went away. I use imperial wax when setting up dies and have even noticed a difference when changing to my normal lube.

As far as sizing, I just run it up at a slow, steady pace and bring it back down after cam over.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I've had issues keeping consistent shoulder bumps from lack of lube as you mentioned. My biggest problem was not moving the inside of the case mouths enough. I noticed the most when I got my Giraud trimmer and found if I stood the cases up and sprayed the mouths with lanolin, that my problem went away. I use imperial wax when setting up dies and have even noticed a difference when changing to my normal lube.

As far as sizing, I just run it up at a slow, steady pace and bring it back down after cam over.

I have not ran an expander ball in 20 yrs, for that reason and others. As a group we can argue which case lube is best till we want to fight, they all work if used properly. If one cannot feel a case dragging on the way into the die from improper lube, maybe loading isn't for them. Even then, a simple pull out, rotate the case 120-180 degrees and double pump it and it will be damn close.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Stop at the top, ease up to let everything relax, push again.
I don't do cam over.
I can feel when I get to Bump.
Body die, collet neck.

and to join in with the "till we want to fight"
I use the Lee tube stuff.
A dab on my index finger, wipe each case just before sizing.

 

[19Scout77]

There is ZERO need to hold it for any period of time. A complete stroke on the other hand ...

 

[Milo 2.5]

Stop at the top, ease up to let everything relax, push again..
I don't do cam over.
I can feel when I get to Bump.

Oh boy, what if the bottom of your die does not contact the shellholder? How would you feel that?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Oh boy, what if the bottom of your die does not contact the shellholder? How would you feel that?

The bottom of my body die does not touch the shell holder.
Maybe I'm mis-discribing what I do.
I feel no 'Cam over' with the lee turret press. I adjust the die at full stroke for the bump I desire.
When I get close to the top I can feel the shoulder hit then feel the bump as I go to full stroke.
Stops on the press linkage stop the stroke before 'cam over'.

 

[Holliday]

I've been reading up on nuanced tips/tricks/advice to continue refining my loading practices and read several account of holding the brass in the sizing die for a 2, 3, 4 etc count to reduce spring/increase consistency.
Does anyone here do that and how long of a hold is preferred?

Interesting, what little I have gleened about metallurgy and metal memory (mostly anecdotal) I have strongly felt that pausing for up to 5 seconds allows the metal to “relax” into its new form. I have not backed this up with an findings or data but simply put it in the “best practices” column.

 

[Milo 2.5]

The bottom of my body die does not touch the shell holder.
Maybe I'm mis-discribing what I do.
I feel no 'Cam over' with the lee turret press. I adjust the die at full stroke for the bump I desire.
When I get close to the top I can feel the shoulder hit then feel the bump as I go to full stroke.
Stops on the press linkage stop the stroke before 'cam over'.

Ok, not familiar with that press, but for most setting the die for a camover makes shit a lot easier.

On a side note, and doubt you'll know what I am saying,, but you almost entered "fguffy" territory with that statement.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Got me on that one???

 

[47guy]

Ok, not familiar with that press, but for most setting the die for a camover makes shit a lot easier.

On a side note, and doubt you'll know what I am saying,, but you almost entered "fguffy" territory with that statement.

now thats Fn funny right there!!! and again like i say reloading is WAYYY over thought.

 

[Milo 2.5]

now thats Fn funny right there!!! and again like i say reloading is WAYYY over thought.

Lol, I take it you are familiar with his thoughts, remember, you cannot move a shoulder.

 

[47guy]

Lol, I take it you are familiar with his thoughts, remember, you cannot move a shoulder.

not only familiar ive been guffy'd once myself LOL!!

 

[Steel head]

I worry more about consistent lube.

 

[spife7980]

I leave it for a few seconds but I dont have any measurable evidence it actually does anything. They come out the same length via calipers if I leave it to sit for 10 seconds or if I just give it a quick pump. Its easy to see that much for yourself with a handful of cases.

 

[47guy]

i ram em in and jerk them out...can anyone really notice a 0.002 difference in shoulders if shooting one or the other.

 

[Bradu]

I have not ran an expander ball in 20 yrs, for that reason and others. As a group we can argue which case lube is best till we want to fight, they all work if used properly. If one cannot feel a case dragging on the way into the die from improper lube, maybe loading isn't for them. Even then, a simple pull out, rotate the case 120-180 degrees and double pump it and it will be damn close.

It is more about application of the lube then the type of lube. When you apply it one at a time versus spraying 50 or so at a time, there is going to be a difference. Not sure if you are trying to imply that reloading isn't for me though because of my post?

 

[Milo 2.5]

It is more about application of the lube then the type of lube. When you apply it one at a time versus spraying 50 or so at a time, there is going to be a difference. Not sure if you are trying to imply that reloading isn't for me though because of my post?

Oh gosh no, why I said "one" instead of "you". lol, than again "them" instead of you
Carry on, I have no issues with what you post, solid advice. We are all different.

 

[Kyskeet]

Inconsistency in sizing, what is being experienced is elastic vs plastic deformation. Consistent sizing (deformation) has less to do with time in the die and more with condition of the brass. Work hardening of the brass being the major variable, Case neck/shoulder annealing will remove this variable from the equation. Consistent Lubrication will also ease in case release from the die without changing the dimension of the brass that has been correctly sized on the up stroke.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I'm using a Redding body die for my 22 Nolser.
It's a slightly tapered case, like most, and as -fired doesn't take much to size the body.
Release is quick. A small amount of variation in sizing length won't chance the case body much because of the small angle. When I reach the shoulder (guess I'm setting myself up again) and set back a very small amount, usually 0.001" to 0.0015", and let go of the handle I feel a small amount of spring back. I press down again and the spring back is pretty much done. I size the neck in a collet die.
I can tell by feel when chambering an unbumped round compared to one bumped a thou.
I don't think annealing once fired cases would help much.

Now, can I see the results on target? It's probably built in to my scatter.
Along with case capacity, bullet weight, seating depth, neck tension.

 

[Larry Jones]

I've always been curious on the type of lube used as well. If one is using a wax lube, does a delay in the die allow for the excess lube to flow out the space? I would think liquid lubed would equalize mush easier and be more consistent if you think about it.

Anyone got any real world data comparing the two lune types.

 

[flyer]

Inconsistency in sizing, what is being experienced is elastic vs plastic deformation. Consistent sizing (deformation) has less to do with time in the die and more with condition of the brass. Work hardening of the brass being the major variable, Case neck/shoulder annealing will remove this variable from the equation. Consistent Lubrication will also ease in case release from the die without changing the dimension of the brass that has been correctly sized on the up stroke.

Kind of this.

As long as you hit plastic deformation, spring back isn't going to be an issue.

If the bump you are trying to do is tiny and your work hardening condition isn't consistent, spring back could be inconsistent. That's being on the edge between elastic and plastic deformation.

I think a pause might be good just to ensure you are reaching full stroke every time but I'm not convinced that more than a moment would do anything.

 

[Rootshot]

There seems to be a fair amount of speculation / opinion here about holding the brass in the die for a few seconds. This seems like a really simple experiment to perform to confirm / refute the effect. Has anyone actually used a headspace gauge to gather data?

 

[Rocketvapor]

It might also depend on the type of press you are using.
My Lee turret isn't the strongest in the world.
When you run the brass in, feed rate, the velocity you move the ram, affects the force on parts as well as the brass. It might be difficult to see brass flowing down the body as you ram it in.
Fast, slow, stop etc.
(trying to think of terms that won't get in in dutch here ).

Body sizing for a tapered case, like .308, has a very slight taper angle, and it would take several thousandths variation of travel to make ANY noticeable difference in the case body. Mostly down by the base anyway.
I guess you could test some cases to see if the body relaxes if held in the die vs ram it in and pull it out.
Do some of each, then run them into the die a second time. One easier than the other the second time?
(no expander)


I also notice that when you seat bullets with very little ram force and go slow you get less bullet distortion
(bet the neck hurts less also) and better length consistency.

 

[bax]

Insert a case into the shellholder, lower the handle. Pick up a new piece of brass, smear Imperial on it, raise the handle, remove the old piece, insert the new piece, lower the handle. Repeat. I use it because it helps to reduce variation and the technique delivers consistent timing.

I ran tests with 10 pieces of LC LR brass and Lapua brass. Evaluation by measuring shoulder datum with RCBS Precision Mic.

1. as above
2. lube the case, insert into press, cycle the handle, next case.
3. same as option 2 only double pump

I do not cam-over. I do not use an expander button. I do expand with a mandrel; when expanding I use graphite in the neck. Variation: try with annealed and not-annealed cases.

Option 1 produced less variation than option 2. Option 1 was typically +- .001 (frequently less), option 2 was typically +- .002 - .003 with a few cases up to .005. Annealing helped to reduce variation in both options. Option 3 was similar to option 1. Results same for both brass types.

YMMV.

 

[Sheldon N]

I saw shoulder bump consistency improve with going to alcohol/lanolin lube and doing them all at once. Big plastic bin, spray/stir/spray until they are evenly coated, then letting alcohol all evaporate off.

I pull the press handle to full stop, and give it about a half second pause. Just enough to make sure I'm not bouncing off the end of the press cycle.

With annealing and the above, I typically hold shoulder bump consistency within a 1 thou window, usually less.

 

[47guy]

I saw shoulder bump consistency improve with going to alcohol/lanolin lube and doing them all at once. Big plastic bin, spray/stir/spray until they are evenly coated, then letting alcohol all evaporate off.

I pull the press handle to full stop, and give it about a half second pause. Just enough to make sure I'm not bouncing off the end of the press cycle.

With annealing and the above, I typically hold shoulder bump consistency within a 1 thou window, usually less.

The alcohol lanolin is the cats meow!!

I’ve tried a lot of different stuff and nothing makes sizing as smooth.

 

[demolitionman]

Does anyone here do that and how long of a hold is preferred?

However long you choose to do it, do it the same, everytime, with uniformely lubed cases.

 

[Huskydriver]

Wtf is this voodoo snake oil thread lol. Brass is either sized and springs back X amount or it doesn't. Time in your die will have 0 effect on how much sizing is done. The amount of lube used can and will change how much sizing is done.

The key is doing whatever you do the same everytime.

 

[19Scout77]

My understanding is that if you actually operate your press as fast as humanly possible and rather than pause at the top of the stroke, you actually try to get through the up/down transition as quickly as possible. The idea is that if you move fast enough, the brass will not have a chance to work harden as you are not working it to a long enough period of time.

 

[19Scout77]

?

 

[Kyskeet]

? discovery of new theories in mechanical metallurgy

 

[dbshiner]

+1 on huskydriver, consistency is the most important part

 

[Deleted member 10043]

No, I don't do anything stupid when resizing for fuck's sake.

 

[Shifty6BR]

 

[bax]

Insert a case into the shellholder, lower the handle. Pick up a new piece of brass, smear Imperial on it, raise the handle, remove the old piece, insert the new piece, lower the handle. Repeat. I use it because it helps to reduce variation and the technique delivers consistent timing.

I ran tests with 10 pieces of LC LR brass and Lapua brass. Evaluation by measuring shoulder datum with RCBS Precision Mic.

1. as above
2. lube the case, insert into press, cycle the handle, next case.
3. same as option 2 only double pump

I do not cam-over. I do not use an expander button. I do expand with a mandrel; when expanding I use graphite in the neck. Variation: try with annealed and not-annealed cases.

Option 1 produced less variation than option 2. Option 1 was typically +- .001 (frequently less), option 2 was typically +- .002 - .003 with a few cases up to .005. Annealing helped to reduce variation in both options. Option 3 was similar to option 1. Results same for both brass types.

YMMV.

On Sunday I shot 42 rounds, 20 rounds through a gun with headspace = zero with my headspace gauge and 22 rounds through a gun with headspace -.003. All brass is 308 Lake City LR. I measured and sorted the brass using an RCBS Precision mic. The brass fired through the HS=zero gun measured zero, +- .0005 - very little variation. The brass fired through the HS=-.003 gun measured -.003 - also very little variation.

All cases tumbled and annealed. I set the FL sizing die to reduce the HS=zero cases to -.002 and sized all cases following my procedure above. After FL sizing, I tumbled the Imperial sizing die wax off, trimmed the cases to 2.015-6, ran them over a mandrel, then re-measured to sort them. I have 20 cases with shoulders either -.002 or -.003 and 22 cases with shoulders -.004 to -.006. In both groups the distribution is roughly equal across the range. Case neck inside diameter is .304 measured with a pin gauge.

I consider that this is good consistency and I see no reason to improve it. I do not understand why the shorter cases were also sized down by .002. Ideas from you guys?

 

[Huskydriver]

On Sunday I shot 42 rounds, 20 rounds through a gun with headspace = zero with my headspace gauge and 22 rounds through a gun with headspace -.003. All brass is 308 Lake City LR. I measured and sorted the brass using an RCBS Precision mic. The brass fired through the HS=zero gun measured zero, +- .0005 - very little variation. The brass fired through the HS=-.003 gun measured -.003 - also very little variation.

All cases tumbled and annealed. I set the FL sizing die to reduce the HS=zero cases to -.002 and sized all cases following my procedure above. After FL sizing, I tumbled the Imperial sizing die wax off, trimmed the cases to 2.015-6, ran them over a mandrel, then re-measured to sort them. I have 20 cases with shoulders either -.002 or -.003 and 22 cases with shoulders -.004 to -.006. In both groups the distribution is roughly equal across the range. Case neck inside diameter is .304 measured with a pin gauge.

I consider that this is good consistency and I see no reason to improve it. I do not understand why the shorter cases were also sized down by .002. Ideas from you guys?

When you size a case regardless if it's shorter or longer than your desired shoulder set back, the case is first sized longitudinally as it passes into the die. As the brass approaches the top of the die, brass flows in the path of least resistance which is upwards. Once the brass is pushed totally to the top of the stroke, the brass is then forced to bump the shoulder back but the brass above the shoulder has to go somewhere so it flows into the neck. Now your case grows in length a few though. That's why you trim after sizing.

 

[bax]

When you size a case regardless if it's shorter or longer than your desired shoulder set back, the case is first sized longitudinally as it passes into the die. As the brass approaches the top of the die, brass flows in the path of least resistance which is upwards. Once the brass is pushed totally to the top of the stroke, the brass is then forced to bump the shoulder back but the brass above the shoulder has to go somewhere so it flows into the neck. Now your case grows in length a few though. That's why you trim after sizing.

Yes. Understand and agree.

The problem I have is not that the overall case became longer. The problem is: case 1 measured from the datum to the base, is nominal call that length zero. Case 2, measured from the datum to the base is -.003 call that -3. I set my FL sizing die to bump case 1's shoulder to nominal -2. Step 1 run case 1 into the die, pull it out, measure the datum to base, it is -2 and all is good. Step 2. Run case 2 into the die. It is already -3. When it comes out of the die, it is -5.

The problem is if the FL die is set to form a case to length -2 and that works when I size a longer case. Then why, when sizing a shorter case, does it create a case that is -5? I can imagine the case initial length -3 being squeezed radially thus getting longer and ending up -2. I don't understand how the shorter -3 case gets bumped to a shorter length -5 than the long case going from 0 to -2. I have to be missing something.

 

[Winny94]

Yes. Understand and agree.

The problem I have is not that the overall case became longer. The problem is: case 1 measured from the datum to the base, is nominal call that length zero. Case 2, measured from the datum to the base is -.003 call that -3. I set my FL sizing die to bump case 1's shoulder to nominal -2. Step 1 run case 1 into the die, pull it out, measure the datum to base, it is -2 and all is good. Step 2. Run case 2 into the die. It is already -3. When it comes out of the die, it is -5.

The problem is if the FL die is set to form a case to length -2 and that works when I size a longer case. Then why, when sizing a shorter case, does it create a case that is -5? I can imagine the case initial length -3 being squeezed radially thus getting longer and ending up -2. I don't understand how the shorter -3 case gets bumped to a shorter length -5 than the long case going from 0 to -2. I have to be missing something.

My first question is why is there is a .003 difference in you cases if they're the same mfg, lot, and chamber?

 

[clcustom1911]

Got me on that one???

What is this "camover" thing people speak of?

I love my Lee presses!

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Yeah

 

[FishDr]

Yes. Understand and agree.

The problem I have is not that the overall case became longer. The problem is: case 1 measured from the datum to the base, is nominal call that length zero. Case 2, measured from the datum to the base is -.003 call that -3. I set my FL sizing die to bump case 1's shoulder to nominal -2. Step 1 run case 1 into the die, pull it out, measure the datum to base, it is -2 and all is good. Step 2. Run case 2 into the die. It is already -3. When it comes out of the die, it is -5.

The problem is if the FL die is set to form a case to length -2 and that works when I size a longer case. Then why, when sizing a shorter case, does it create a case that is -5? I can imagine the case initial length -3 being squeezed radially thus getting longer and ending up -2. I don't understand how the shorter -3 case gets bumped to a shorter length -5 than the long case going from 0 to -2. I have to be missing something.

Not sure what kind of press you are using … O type press, open C type press or progressive? Steel or aluminum or iron? Perhaps press flex could be an issue. I measured press flex once with an indicator - and then moved to a steel O-type press. Still flexes, just more consistent.

 

[bax]

My first question is why is there is a .003 difference in you cases if they're the same mfg, lot, and chamber?

See earlier post. 20 cases shot in a gun with a nominal length chamber. Those resized to -2. 22 cases shot in a gun with a -3 chamber. Without changing the sizing die, those resized to -5. So, different chamber.

 

[bax]

Not sure what kind of press you are using … O type press, open C type press or progressive? Steel or aluminum or iron? Perhaps press flex could be an issue. I measured press flex once with an indicator - and then moved to a steel O-type press. Still flexes, just more consistent.

Press is an RCBS A-2. Steel. It's a beast. I have several of them. I insert bronze washers to tighten up side play, all of the clearances are very close to zero. The only bad thing about an A-2 is primers. I rotate the ram 180 degrees to make the primers fall out the front. Oh well.