How many calories??

[TheGerman]

Ok so I've been doing KETO for a bit and have had decent results. My problem is it seems I can't figure out how much to eat in terms of calories to match what I want my outcome to be. I'm definitely not overweight at 6 foot, 185 but want to get rid of that last 10lbs of fat as well as flatten the stomach. For the first time in practically forever, I've started lifting real weights and I think this is where my problem is coming from. In order to make muscle, I need calories. In order to flatten out, less calories. So WTF do I do? Current KETO layout is: 2000 calories (was actually thinking of doing 1800 for a cutting phase) 145g from fat 150g from protein 25g from carbs Workout routine: M - Cardio x 2; AM run for 30 mins @ 7mph pace, PM HIIT for 25 mins, 1 min @ 6mph (or walk) 1 min at 11mph (have been starting to alter the times to increase the run time) T - Weights, 5x5 program, Squat, Deadlift, Overhead press. Throw in some accessory work for quads/calves like step ups, etc. W- Cardio x 2; AM run for 30 mins @ 7mph pace, PM HIIT for 25 mins, 1 min @ 6mph (or walk) 1 min at 11mph (have been starting to alter the times to increase the run time) Th- Weights, 5x5 program, Squat, Bench, Rows. Accessory work on arms and core. Weighted 75lb ruck march in the desert, 6 miles in 1.5 hour (havent been doing this as its 110+ outside) F - Cardio x 2; AM run for 30 mins @ 7mph pace, PM HIIT for 25 mins, 1 min @ 6mph (or walk) 1 min at 11mph (have been starting to alter the times to increase the run time) Sa - Weights, 5x5 program, Squat, Deadlift, Overhead press. Throw in some accessory work for quads/calves like step ups, etc. Sun - Off. Go shoot stuff. So question is, WTF should I be eating here? I literally do this and feel like I am getting absolutely nowhere and suspecting its because of the food intake. Just do cardio and light weights while cutting and then go to 3k calories and lift?

 

[Rerun7]

That's a lot of working out for only 2k calories, sounds like you need a change if you've stalled out. Keep in mind the leaner you get the harder it is to lose.

Need more info:

Whats your current BF%?

Are you currently losing, maintaing or gaining weight?

How often do you do a refeed day?

Are you eating healthy foods or just whatever as long as you stay in your macros?

Whats your workout background (how many years have you been lifting?)

How long have you been doing the same routine?

Are your lifts still progressing on the 5x5 or are you stalling out?

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

I had to cut back on my protein and fat. I stopped losing pretty quickly into keto.
How's your fiber intake? High fiber is the single common denominator of all the most successful diets.

I also only eat twice day. I try to space my meals as far apart as possible. Are you being honest with yourself and monitoring the hidden calories? At 2000 calories a day and that activity level you should be losing weight.

 

[TheGerman]

I had to cut back on my protein and fat. I stopped losing pretty quickly into keto.
How's your fiber intake? High fiber is the single common denominator of all the most successful diets.

I also only eat twice day. I try to space my meals as far apart as possible. Are you being honest with yourself and monitoring the hidden calories? At 2000 calories a day and that activity level you should be losing weight.

That's why I asked; I'm under the impression I may be basically putting my body into 'holy shit, we're not getting enough food so lets no lose any more fat!' mode. This is why I keep second guessing everything. The other issue I think the lifting is actually counterproductive at 1800-2k calories as you won't build muscle from it.

I use the MyFitnessPal app and am right around 2k each day, concentrating more on the fat/protein intake than the actual calories.

 

[TheGerman]

That's a lot of working out for only 2k calories, sounds like you need a change if you've stalled out. Keep in mind the leaner you get the harder it is to lose.

Need more info:

Whats your current BF%?

Honestly no idea. I'm 6 foot, 185lbs. Only fat is a little that needs to go from the stomach. When I was deployed, I weighed 175 but that was with way more muscle.

Are you currently losing, maintaing or gaining weight?

I weight 185-187 every fucking time I weigh myself.

How often do you do a refeed day?

I usually have an 'off' day on Sundays where I'm not actually re-feeding to the point of gorging on carbs, but I kind of just eat whatever that day.

Are you eating healthy foods or just whatever as long as you stay in your macros?

Breakfast is usually 9tbsp egg beaters cooked in 1tbsp butter (I have regular eggs) with 1/3 cup cheese mixed in and 2-3 bacon or 3 or so oz of preservative free sausage. Coffee with creamer (my only vice)

Lunch is either chicken thigh, rib end pork sirloin or a sirloin steak cooked in butter with either an avacado and a little salsa, or a entire bag of cauliflower/green beans/broccoli.

Dinner is whatever meat I didn't eat for lunch (can be pork, chicken, ground beef with cheese melted on it, etc) and iceberg lettuce with olive oil and balsamic.

Any protein deficiency I fix with Myprotein shakes. Any fat deficiency I fix with Aunt Patty's raw Coconut oil.

Whats your workout background (how many years have you been lifting?)

Other than lifting before deployments, I never really have. All my strength and conditioning is from running and things like weighted ruck marches, being out in the field, climbing, hiking, etc.

How long have you been doing the same routine?

I've been changing it up. Recently added the HIIT portion. The 5x5 I started a while back but had an injury and layed off of it. I've actually be changing up cardio with machines and outside. The only thing that stays the same is the 5x5, other than adding weight.

Are your lifts still progressing on the 5x5 or are you stalling out?

Lifted quite a bit more pre-injury than I am doing now. Mainly because I focus on form over just being able to throw more plates on. The last few sessions I've actually added weight each time.

 

[Rerun7]

Normally you have to pick either cut or bulk. But if you haven't done a lot of lifting in the past then it's possible to gain muscle and cut weight at the same time. It's a slower process but it can be done.

Also, the leaner you are the more calories are partitioned to muscle building vs fat. So if you get down to about 10-12% BF then it's easier to build muscle. However, keep in mind that any calories you eat over what you need will turn to fat so don't go crazy. Going from 2k to 3k is a big jump. Keep your workouts progressing and keep lifting heavy. Just adjust calories to make changes and change lifting routines about every 12 weeks.

There's a lot that could be said but here's a simplistic view of some options.

1- start a cut to get down to below 12%bf and try to maintain muscle mass. Don't lose more than 1lb a week while continuing to lift heavy. Start by cutting 200 calories out of your diet and see what that does. Increase the deficit by 100 calories if you don't see a change after 2 weeks. You are already at a low calorie level so I wouldn't go too much deeper personally. I end my cuts at about 1600 a day but I weight less than you.

(Note, if you've been in a calorie deficit for a long time you could actually start losing again by adding some calories or taking a couple weeks at maintenance then cutting down again)

2- start bulking. Keep lifting heavy and add 500 calories a day to your diet. This will keep you gaining without a lot of fat packing on. Keep going until you hit 15%bf and then cut back down below 12%. Rinse and repeat.

3- this is what I would do. Add 300 calories a day and change to a different weightlifting routine. If you haven't lifted a ton in the past you can get great gains by going to a 3x a week full body routine or a 3x a week upper/lower split. This would allow you to gain muscle with minimal fat gain and maybe even lean up more while you are doing it. Aim for about .5-1lb gain a week. Adjust calories as needed until you hit this rate.

I would also also ease up on cardio a bit if you want to gain more muscle. I typically hit cardio hard when cutting but keep it moderate when trying to gain.

 

[MarinePMI]

Basically what Rerun said...if you've been working out (weight training) more than 6 months, you're past the newbie/novice stage where you can recomp (lose BF and add muscle). You'll need to add some calories to gain muscle, and then cut. That's where I'm at now. Got down to 11%BF and stalled in lifts and BF loss. Now bulking, and am up to 13% BF, but seeing significant muscle growth. The plan is to continue to bulk until I hit ~15% BF, and then cut again. As Rippetoe says, "Losing fat is easy, adding muscle is the hard part". Once significant muscle is added, they become their own calorie sinks (burns shit loads of calories all by themselves), and cutting becomes less of a chore.

Like Rerun says, if you want to gain muscle you'll need to back off the cardio (like cut it out completely), and focus on gaining muscle (high protein, higher carb, and moderate fat intake).

 

[akg102]

Unless you're really dedicated to a keto diet, I wouldn't even bother going down that route. Also, don't confuse your goals by trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time -- you could get there on a recomp as a beginner, but it will take forever with very little visible progress. With that said, you're simply not going to look how you want to at the bottom of this cut. BUT, the calorie partitioning benefits of being lean will make it worth the temporary pain when you start your bulk. Also, when you do begin your bulk......please don't over do it by binging. You want to add as much quality mass as possible and minimize fat gains. If you don't take it slow, you'll regret it when you have another 30lbs of fat to lose all over again.

Typically, I prefer extreme measures over more modest/sustainable forms of fat loss because I want to spend the majority of my time bulking and immediate, visible fat loss has its own motivational effect. If you're absolutely sick of weighing the same, do a 11-12 day PSMF followed by a carb refeed weekend. Keep lifting heavy twice per week. Repeat until you're at your level of desired leanness. I guarantee you won't weigh 185lbs at the end.

If you're finding that you can't make it the full 11-12 days of hell, a more sustainable approach would be a calorie/carb cycling approach. By CC cycling, you get the benefits of psychological breaks in your diet and you guarantee that you're keeping leptin levels high, with the added benefit of maintaining as much lean mass as possible on the days you lift.

Sunday: PSMF + LISS Cardio
Monday: PSMF+ LISS Cardio
Tuesday: Carb Refeed + AM Full Body
Wednesday: PSMF+ LISS Cardio
Thursday: PSMF+ LISS Cardio
Friday: Carb Refeed + Upper Body
Saturday: Carb Refeed + Lower Body

This is actually my preferred method of cutting once you're fairly lean -- it's a bit more modest than an extended PSMF, but you'll still be losing 1.5lbs per week if your calories are on point.

 

[TheGerman]

Unless you're really dedicated to a keto diet, I wouldn't even bother going down that route. Also, don't confuse your goals by trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time -- you could get there on a recomp as a beginner, but it will take forever with very little visible progress. With that said, you're simply not going to look how you want to at the bottom of this cut. BUT, the calorie partitioning benefits of being lean will make it worth the temporary pain when you start your bulk. Also, when you do begin your bulk......please don't over do it by binging. You want to add as much quality mass as possible and minimize fat gains. If you don't take it slow, you'll regret it when you have another 30lbs of fat to lose all over again.

Typically, I prefer extreme measures over more modest/sustainable forms of fat loss because I want to spend the majority of my time bulking and immediate, visible fat loss has its own motivational effect. If you're absolutely sick of weighing the same, do a 11-12 day PSMF followed by a carb refeed weekend. Keep lifting heavy twice per week. Repeat until you're at your level of desired leanness. I guarantee you won't weigh 185lbs at the end.

If you're finding that you can't make it the full 11-12 days of hell, a more sustainable approach would be a calorie/carb cycling approach. By CC cycling, you get the benefits of psychological breaks in your diet and you guarantee that you're keeping leptin levels high, with the added benefit of maintaining as much lean mass as possible on the days you lift.

Sunday: PSMF + LISS Cardio
Monday: PSMF+ LISS Cardio
Tuesday: Carb Refeed + AM Full Body
Wednesday: PSMF+ LISS Cardio
Thursday: PSMF+ LISS Cardio
Friday: Carb Refeed + Upper Body
Saturday: Carb Refeed + Lower Body

This is actually my preferred method of cutting once you're fairly lean -- it's a bit more modest than an extended PSMF, but you'll still be losing 1.5lbs per week if your calories are on point.

Holy shit that sounds like some Somali level starvation from what I just read PSMF was.

This is just for your cut phase correct?

If I did the math right (and just totally guessed and probably way overestimated BF% at 20%) it would be 931 calories, daily on 163 grams of protein. Holy. Shit.

Ok retarded question; how do you figure out what a carb refeed would be as far as calories, carbs, overall macros for that day? I doubt you're just gorging on twinkies those days.

 

[akg102]

Holy shit that sounds like some Somali level starvation from what I just read PSMF was.

This is just for your cut phase correct?

If I did the math right (and just totally guessed and probably way overestimated BF% at 20%) it would be 931 calories, daily on 163 grams of protein. Holy. Shit.

Ok retarded question; how do you figure out what a carb refeed would be as far as calories, carbs, overall macros for that day? I doubt you're just gorging on twinkies those days.

Tell me about it -- the pain is real! But as long as you keep it within the limited timeframe, you're able to lose a lb of fat every 2-3 days. It's not easy and you'll definitely needs some sort of ECA stack to curb your hunger and a ton of fibrous, low calorie vegetables. I'd also try to bump the protein up to 180-200g to be safe. That'll put you around the 1200-1300kcal mark.

Carb refeeds are going to be lower protein, low fat, high carb in a 500kcal surplus. Because part of your goal is to replenish muscular glycogen stores, try not to get the bulk of your carbs from fruits. Fructose goes, primarily, to replenishing liver glycogen. You'll want to focus on starches. (Breads, grains, starchy vegetables, etc....)

The consensus seems to be that an average male can store somewhere around 400-500g of carbs, but refeeds are intended to be calculated overfeedings to restore glycogen AND increase leptin levels. Protein/Fat have only a very small effect on leptin, so carbs need to be prioritized once you've hit your protein goal for the day. I try to eat ~500g of carbs on my refeed days and aim at a 500kcal surplus. If it's a 2-day refeed, you could do more of a taper. (600g C on day 1 & 400g C on day 2) Personally, I prefer 2-day refeeds as muscle fullness doesn't really show up until the 48hr mark for me and studies seem to indicate the prolonged overfeedings have a more dramatic effect on leptin.

 

[MarinePMI]

I would NOT cut that aggressively; it's a great way to totally fuck up your metabolism, which would then mean 3-4 months (minimum) at maintenance level calories until your metabolism stabilizes. Never mind the hormonal havoc you'll create.

While there is solid science and anecdotal evidence to support refeeds while in a caloric deficit, that same science shows diminishing returns with cuts that exceed 25% of your maintenance level caloric intake. Super lean cuts are just brutal and not very productive, with huge side effects (did I mention a fucked up metabolism?). Crash diets/harsh cuts just trigger your body to go in starvation mode, even with refeeds.

Smh...there is no rocket science behind this. Once you body has begun to adapt (i.e. become efficient) with exercise, your strength and energy will be directly affected by what you eat (again, not rocket science). How much fat you burn and muscle you gain will be based on diet and the amount of stress your place upon your muscles. More stress = more adaptation, more adaptation + more recovery=bigger muscle mass, bigger muscles = more calories needed to burn. As your muscles increase they will reach a point where you are not feeding them enough to grow if you stay at the same caloric intake. This is where you get lean and strong, but plateau. At some point you will have to eat more to gain muscle. How much you eat (or over shoot your caloric requirements) will determine how much fat you put on. If you don't over shoot your TDEE, you'll be hard pressed to grow muscle at any significant rate.

This is all to say or ask, what exactly is your goal? To look good, or to be strong? The two are not always mutually inclusive, especially when you're talking about efficiency in getting strong or looking good. Ironically, the easiest way to look good, is to put on muscle.

Worry about six pack abs after you're carrying a significant amount of lean muscle mass (giant caloric oven). And that isn't going to happen on 2k cal a day with that work out routine.

Here's an idea, go to maintenance level calories; I bet you'll start loosing BF (it happens to me every time after I cut, I continue to lose a % or two before start seeing muscle growth). If you do, then you have your answer. If you don't, shrug, you'll at least be growing/increasing muscle mass.

 

[FuddLord]

I know this is old, but check out T nation they've done quite a few articles on keto