So the range I belong only has 100 and 200 ranges. Is there a way/target used to zero for 300-yards at shorter distances?
- Thread starter sasquatch98226
- Start date
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
There seems to be two different trains of thought for zeroing at 300 yards on a short range.
I'm visiting my family and want to zero my rifle while I'm here for 300 yards on a 100 yard range.Being I'm no expert( actually a novice) I've asked my little brother (a former Marine) to help me. He said we would zero at 36 yards which gives me a BZO of 300 yards. The path crosses the same point at 36 yards as 300 yards. I searched the net many times over and the found the USMC maneul specifies zeroing at 36 yards on a range less then 300 yards to obtain a 300 yard BZO. But also from my reading I've come to understand the tradition method is/was 25 yards...
So for me I will zero at 36 yards and when I return home I can test my zero because the range I normally shoot at is out to 300 yards.
There seems to be two different trains of thought for zeroing at 300 yards on a short range.
I'm visiting my family and want to zero my rifle while I'm here for 300 yards on a 100 yard range.Being I'm no expert( actually a novice) I've asked my little brother (a former Marine) to help me. He said we would zero at 36 yards which gives me a BZO of 300 yards. The path crosses the same point at 36 yards as 300 yards. I searched the net many times over and the found the USMC maneul specifies zeroing at 36 yards on a range less then 300 yards to obtain a 300 yard BZO. But also from my reading I've come to understand the tradition method is/was 25 yards...
So for me I will zero at 36 yards and when I return home I can test my zero because the range I normally shoot at is out to 300 yards.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
Sasquatch your short range zero for a 300 yard zero is going to depend on the ballistics of the 5.56x45 (.223) round you are using and barrel length. The USMC 36yd zero is for a 20" rifle firing M855. If you have an AR - the ballistic drop compensator is calculated for METERS and not YARDS too.
Sasquatch your short range zero for a 300 yard zero is going to depend on the ballistics of the 5.56x45 (.223) round you are using and barrel length. The USMC 36yd zero is for a 20" rifle firing M855. If you have an AR - the ballistic drop compensator is calculated for METERS and not YARDS too.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
Shooter for Android says 36 yds. will work with XM193 from a 20" bbl.
Shooter for Android says 36 yds. will work with XM193 from a 20" bbl.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
If ballistics are similiar, different rounds may have similar SRZ. Rack grade battle rifles aren't match guns and not using match ammo, so the differences many times between some rounds are not alot. I've seen the M855 and M193 Army ballistic trajectories and very similar. Still to be precise, the BDC on the A2 (1 MOA clicks) and A4 (1/2 MOA clicks) hash marks are for meters and m855.
If ballistics are similiar, different rounds may have similar SRZ. Rack grade battle rifles aren't match guns and not using match ammo, so the differences many times between some rounds are not alot. I've seen the M855 and M193 Army ballistic trajectories and very similar. Still to be precise, the BDC on the A2 (1 MOA clicks) and A4 (1/2 MOA clicks) hash marks are for meters and m855.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
You didn't say what type of rifle you were trying to zero. Nor did you say if you were using optics or iron sights.
If you are shooting an m4 with irons, here is a target to help you. Make sure you properly zero out your irons before hand and you should be using the 0-1 sight.
http://ohmr.ohio.gov/forms/ohmr2444-b.pdf
If you are zeroing an a-2 style weapon system here is the target
http://www.bobdbob.com/~deneb/doc/targets/m16a2-25m-zero.pdf
Of course the type of ammo you are using is going to effect actual ballistics down range. You didn't mention that either.
You didn't say what type of rifle you were trying to zero. Nor did you say if you were using optics or iron sights.
If you are shooting an m4 with irons, here is a target to help you. Make sure you properly zero out your irons before hand and you should be using the 0-1 sight.
http://ohmr.ohio.gov/forms/ohmr2444-b.pdf
If you are zeroing an a-2 style weapon system here is the target
http://www.bobdbob.com/~deneb/doc/targets/m16a2-25m-zero.pdf
Of course the type of ammo you are using is going to effect actual ballistics down range. You didn't mention that either.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
I've played with this a few times before when I only had access to 100 yds. Correct me if my method was wrong, but what I did was acquire the drop data from a ballistics calc (JBM Ballistics) for 100 yds with a 300 yd zero and calc'd the difference (~4 moa). I placed a desired point of aim and desired point of impact reflecting the 300 yd zero at the 100 yd target difference (~4 in) and zero'd for the 300 yd point of impact.
I've played with this a few times before when I only had access to 100 yds. Correct me if my method was wrong, but what I did was acquire the drop data from a ballistics calc (JBM Ballistics) for 100 yds with a 300 yd zero and calc'd the difference (~4 moa). I placed a desired point of aim and desired point of impact reflecting the 300 yd zero at the 100 yd target difference (~4 in) and zero'd for the 300 yd point of impact.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
generally those military zeroes floating around are for rack battle rifles firing GI issue ammo using irons. in the case of USMC and their SRZ mentioned above with M855, that published zero in their field manual MCRP 301-A is based on iron sights. since ballistic calculations and zeroes are calculated by sight height above the bore, the calculations may vary between sights at different heights (i.e., irons v. day optic).
OP these might help if you have AR and want a battle zero of 300 yd/meters
http://home.comcast.net/~j_colt123/Improved M16A2_A3_A4 Zero Targeta.pdf
generally those military zeroes floating around are for rack battle rifles firing GI issue ammo using irons. in the case of USMC and their SRZ mentioned above with M855, that published zero in their field manual MCRP 301-A is based on iron sights. since ballistic calculations and zeroes are calculated by sight height above the bore, the calculations may vary between sights at different heights (i.e., irons v. day optic).
OP these might help if you have AR and want a battle zero of 300 yd/meters
http://home.comcast.net/~j_colt123/Improved M16A2_A3_A4 Zero Targeta.pdf
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HAVOC615</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M4 zero target at 25 yards. Place 6 rounds in a 4cm circle or within 1.6" and you are good. </div></div>
Oh so anywhere on the target, as long as it's a 4cm circle, I'm good? haha
Come on guys, this guy said nothing about what type of ammo he's using. Hell, he didn't even say he was using an AR!! Ballistics of a 14.5in M4 with ball ammo are going to be a hell of a lot different from a 24in bolt gun, and you guys know this! That's like saying "oh you can zero your rifle at 72 yards, that'll put you dead on at 250! Caliber? No it doesn't matter, just zero at 72!"
Sasquatch, Look up the brand of ammo you're shooting to see if they have a ballistics table. If you're lucky and it's for a 100 yard zero, just look at the 300 yard drop in inches. (example, 11.5 inches)
Divide by 3. (since you want to go from 300 yds to 100. Equals 3.8 in)
Place/draw a mark 3.8 inches above your 100 yard aiming mark. AIM at the original aim point, but zero your rounds onto the new mark you've just drawn.
Now if you're not lucky enough for them to show a 100 yard zero in the chart, Mateofeo said it right on, but a little wordy so I'll try to simplify.
Google "hornady" and click on their ballistics calculator (simplest and quickest to use).
Input your ammo's data (which you can find on manufacturer's website)
Just input that you want a 300 yard zero. It will show you that at 100 yards you will then be X amount high. Then it's the same concept as before, place a mark X amount above your 100 yard target's aiming point, and zero so your rounds are on that mark. Good to go!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HAVOC615</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M4 zero target at 25 yards. Place 6 rounds in a 4cm circle or within 1.6" and you are good. </div></div>
Oh so anywhere on the target, as long as it's a 4cm circle, I'm good? haha
Come on guys, this guy said nothing about what type of ammo he's using. Hell, he didn't even say he was using an AR!! Ballistics of a 14.5in M4 with ball ammo are going to be a hell of a lot different from a 24in bolt gun, and you guys know this! That's like saying "oh you can zero your rifle at 72 yards, that'll put you dead on at 250! Caliber? No it doesn't matter, just zero at 72!"
Sasquatch, Look up the brand of ammo you're shooting to see if they have a ballistics table. If you're lucky and it's for a 100 yard zero, just look at the 300 yard drop in inches. (example, 11.5 inches)
Divide by 3. (since you want to go from 300 yds to 100. Equals 3.8 in)
Place/draw a mark 3.8 inches above your 100 yard aiming mark. AIM at the original aim point, but zero your rounds onto the new mark you've just drawn.
Now if you're not lucky enough for them to show a 100 yard zero in the chart, Mateofeo said it right on, but a little wordy so I'll try to simplify.
Google "hornady" and click on their ballistics calculator (simplest and quickest to use).
Input your ammo's data (which you can find on manufacturer's website)
Just input that you want a 300 yard zero. It will show you that at 100 yards you will then be X amount high. Then it's the same concept as before, place a mark X amount above your 100 yard target's aiming point, and zero so your rounds are on that mark. Good to go!
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
True he didn't say AR, but this is the semi-Auto section and 300 meters is military battle zero for the AR. OP what's your rifle?
OP if you do decide to us a ballistics calculator for an AR, FPS are usually as reported by factory ammo makers are high. The barrel length for test barrels are typically longer (e.g., 24"). Best to ask someone for chrono data with same set up as your rifle. FPS will not be the on the same round between a M4 14.5" barrel and a 24" factory test barrel on same ammo, and the extra FPS might affect ballistic computations.
True he didn't say AR, but this is the semi-Auto section and 300 meters is military battle zero for the AR. OP what's your rifle?
OP if you do decide to us a ballistics calculator for an AR, FPS are usually as reported by factory ammo makers are high. The barrel length for test barrels are typically longer (e.g., 24"). Best to ask someone for chrono data with same set up as your rifle. FPS will not be the on the same round between a M4 14.5" barrel and a 24" factory test barrel on same ammo, and the extra FPS might affect ballistic computations.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
Thought carbines were zeroed @ 50 for a 300 yard zero? What gives? I'm zeroed at 50 and 1-2" high @ 100. I was told that would put me poa/poi around 300 yards. I only have access to 100 yards so I'm not sure. Was I lied to?
Btw- this is all 556, 14.5", shooting 62gr to 75gr
Thought carbines were zeroed @ 50 for a 300 yard zero? What gives? I'm zeroed at 50 and 1-2" high @ 100. I was told that would put me poa/poi around 300 yards. I only have access to 100 yards so I'm not sure. Was I lied to?
Btw- this is all 556, 14.5", shooting 62gr to 75gr
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
Sorry about that guys, total brain fart on my end.
Rifle info.
AR Pattern
18" Barrel
1-7 twist
69 SMK's
25 Grs Varget
Not sure of velocity
This is a 3-gun load
Sorry about that guys, total brain fart on my end.
Rifle info.
AR Pattern
18" Barrel
1-7 twist
69 SMK's
25 Grs Varget
Not sure of velocity
This is a 3-gun load
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
With the data you provied and using my 77 gr load from JMB Ballistics (free online software):
For a 300 Yd Zero you need to be about 5" high at 200 yds; or 4" high at 100 yds. (I'm at 5,000 ft altitude and ~25.0" HG Pressure; running ~2,725 fps in summertime temps, so you could be off a little, but probably not enough to matter for 3-Gun accuracy.)
I do 3-Gun and a 300 Yd zero is not a good choice, however. Better to use a 200 Yd zero since you are only 1.5" - 2" high at 100 and 8" low at 300 Yds (and 9" low at 300 Meters). For 300 Yd steel plates (with a 200 Yd Zero), just hold at the top edge or a hair over.
With the data you provied and using my 77 gr load from JMB Ballistics (free online software):
For a 300 Yd Zero you need to be about 5" high at 200 yds; or 4" high at 100 yds. (I'm at 5,000 ft altitude and ~25.0" HG Pressure; running ~2,725 fps in summertime temps, so you could be off a little, but probably not enough to matter for 3-Gun accuracy.)
I do 3-Gun and a 300 Yd zero is not a good choice, however. Better to use a 200 Yd zero since you are only 1.5" - 2" high at 100 and 8" low at 300 Yds (and 9" low at 300 Meters). For 300 Yd steel plates (with a 200 Yd Zero), just hold at the top edge or a hair over.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
I am using the 300-yard zero due to the scope, and advice from friends with the same scope.
It's a Trijicon TR24 with the triangle. With a 300-yard zero, the "triangle" is good for just about every paper out to 200+, and with the steel at 300-400 you you can use the base of the triangle as "windage" reference left to right.
It's all just a big experiement for me now, as I am borrowing a buddies rifle for the competition. I am intrigued about the new 1-6's that are coming out from SWFA, Leupold, and Bushnell.
I am using the 300-yard zero due to the scope, and advice from friends with the same scope.
It's a Trijicon TR24 with the triangle. With a 300-yard zero, the "triangle" is good for just about every paper out to 200+, and with the steel at 300-400 you you can use the base of the triangle as "windage" reference left to right.
It's all just a big experiement for me now, as I am borrowing a buddies rifle for the competition. I am intrigued about the new 1-6's that are coming out from SWFA, Leupold, and Bushnell.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
These questions get asked frequently on blog boards by AR owners, and not everyone reloads, technically knows how to compute ballistics graphs w/ software like jbm, or even has access to extended ranges. so last year I decided to do some sample beta testing of interest of ballistic booklets with wind graphs, bullet drop, click tables, zeroing, for common rounds (e.g., M193, M855, BH77, BH69) for 20" AR. Glad I made only a sample few booklets to test the market - The shooter interest was ZERO.
OP this past SH thread might also help
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2823294&page=1
These questions get asked frequently on blog boards by AR owners, and not everyone reloads, technically knows how to compute ballistics graphs w/ software like jbm, or even has access to extended ranges. so last year I decided to do some sample beta testing of interest of ballistic booklets with wind graphs, bullet drop, click tables, zeroing, for common rounds (e.g., M193, M855, BH77, BH69) for 20" AR. Glad I made only a sample few booklets to test the market - The shooter interest was ZERO.
OP this past SH thread might also help
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2823294&page=1
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
in my experience short zeros are off at range because ballistics on the round never match up you have to shoot it to zero it, but it will usually put you on the paper.
in my experience short zeros are off at range because ballistics on the round never match up you have to shoot it to zero it, but it will usually put you on the paper.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
Understood. That's the problem with the TR24 - the reticle is just not a good choice if 400 Yd/Meter targets are in the mix. It's near optimal for speed shooting from close to about 300, however.
Not having an available practice range to test it at the actual longer distances means you are pretty much screwed - but that applies to any optic.
We occasionally shoot 3G to 400 Meters (~438 Yds), but that's rare due to the difficulty level. A half visible 10" flasher at that distance (and from awkward positions)is above the ability and equipment levels of most of our shooters.
FWIW, I shoot a SPRish AR with a 2.5x10 NF (usually at 6x), and a .308 FAL with a Plain Jane 3-9 Compact Leupold. The Leupold is sighted at 200 Meters - but the lower post (at 9X only) is on at 400.
Fairly easy head shots or smaller steel targets at 100 (or 150/200)yds become really hard if your rifle shoots 4-6" high at that distance. IMO, this more than offsets what you might gain against the 400 Yd target. Take what you can hit and don't waste a lot of time on what you can't.
Understood. That's the problem with the TR24 - the reticle is just not a good choice if 400 Yd/Meter targets are in the mix. It's near optimal for speed shooting from close to about 300, however.
Not having an available practice range to test it at the actual longer distances means you are pretty much screwed - but that applies to any optic.
We occasionally shoot 3G to 400 Meters (~438 Yds), but that's rare due to the difficulty level. A half visible 10" flasher at that distance (and from awkward positions)is above the ability and equipment levels of most of our shooters.
FWIW, I shoot a SPRish AR with a 2.5x10 NF (usually at 6x), and a .308 FAL with a Plain Jane 3-9 Compact Leupold. The Leupold is sighted at 200 Meters - but the lower post (at 9X only) is on at 400.
Fairly easy head shots or smaller steel targets at 100 (or 150/200)yds become really hard if your rifle shoots 4-6" high at that distance. IMO, this more than offsets what you might gain against the 400 Yd target. Take what you can hit and don't waste a lot of time on what you can't.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
bdc reticles are set up for a specific round with specific barrel length. like the Trijicons - TA31RCO-A4CP used by USMC. it's stadia lines are specifically for M855 round fired from 20" barrel, not 14.5" barrel or a rifle shooting BH 77 grain match.
which happens to be my problem with ACOGs. I may not always be shootign that ammo, and I may want to use my scope on another rifle.
bdc reticles are set up for a specific round with specific barrel length. like the Trijicons - TA31RCO-A4CP used by USMC. it's stadia lines are specifically for M855 round fired from 20" barrel, not 14.5" barrel or a rifle shooting BH 77 grain match.
which happens to be my problem with ACOGs. I may not always be shootign that ammo, and I may want to use my scope on another rifle.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
Not everyone wants or needs to run ballistic tables that fine tunes a specific load/optic combination to the max. BDC reticles - for 3 Gun requirements - will work surprisingly well with the different barrel lengths and load combinations one would normally expect. Even when switching from .223 to .308, (SBRs excepted).
I ran a TA01NSN for a number of years on 16" to 20" setups with 55gr .223 reloads, 55gr M193, 68 Hornady, and 77 gr SMK reloads plus some misc in-between. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Provided it was first sighted in at 300M</span> (using the 300M stadia), it worked very well at the distances expected for 3G, and beyond. Even at 500 Meters on an 18" gong it was more or less bottom edge vs center hold between guns. One MOA +/- or so difference at mid-range distances in no big deal if the game is speed on steel and you know the drill.
Not everyone wants or needs to run ballistic tables that fine tunes a specific load/optic combination to the max. BDC reticles - for 3 Gun requirements - will work surprisingly well with the different barrel lengths and load combinations one would normally expect. Even when switching from .223 to .308, (SBRs excepted).
I ran a TA01NSN for a number of years on 16" to 20" setups with 55gr .223 reloads, 55gr M193, 68 Hornady, and 77 gr SMK reloads plus some misc in-between. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Provided it was first sighted in at 300M</span> (using the 300M stadia), it worked very well at the distances expected for 3G, and beyond. Even at 500 Meters on an 18" gong it was more or less bottom edge vs center hold between guns. One MOA +/- or so difference at mid-range distances in no big deal if the game is speed on steel and you know the drill.
Re: How to 300-yd zero w/ .223 on a short range?
true you could get away with it. on 20" AR up to about 500 yards (assuming 300 yard zero), there may only be 1 MOA difference between common 5.56mm rounds. i would concede for a non-match rack grade rifle, using a ACOG for the M855 and shooting a different 5.56 mm round -it would not probably make a noticeable difference in real world. Afterall AR's are not bench rest match rifles shooting match ammo. Most rack M16's I've seen are 3 MOA guns anyway using M855, and being 1 moa off wouldn't make a noticeable difference. still I would take an 4x scope like the nightforce nxs compact over ACOG (both ~ same $) that I could swap and use on different rifles and calibers - which is what i was referring to above. ACOG just overspecializes too much for my equipment requirements.
true you could get away with it. on 20" AR up to about 500 yards (assuming 300 yard zero), there may only be 1 MOA difference between common 5.56mm rounds. i would concede for a non-match rack grade rifle, using a ACOG for the M855 and shooting a different 5.56 mm round -it would not probably make a noticeable difference in real world. Afterall AR's are not bench rest match rifles shooting match ammo. Most rack M16's I've seen are 3 MOA guns anyway using M855, and being 1 moa off wouldn't make a noticeable difference. still I would take an 4x scope like the nightforce nxs compact over ACOG (both ~ same $) that I could swap and use on different rifles and calibers - which is what i was referring to above. ACOG just overspecializes too much for my equipment requirements.
