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How to gauge one's mindset

moneey

moneey

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 22, 2008
26
0
The Evergreen State
I searched the site and SH google but didn't find anything.

First off, I am not LEO/MIL, just a civy. I have attended a few courses. I am not an "expert" in weaponcraft but I do feel comfortable with 'em. Every class I've been to always speaks of the mindset; how to build it, etc. My question is how do you know if you have it? I've asked but the answers seem to revolve around "You'll know when you find yourself in a self-defense situation" or "If you're taking classes then you have it".

I have friends who take classes but have said they would not be able to pull the trigger if they had to. They attend classes just to get some "range" time. Actually being in a self-defense situation may be the only way to know but there must be something that can help someone gauge their mentality. I am not satisfied with the answers so far so I'm still searching.

Basically, I would like to know so that I can analyze myself. That way, if I'm lacking then I can improve/correct it. I don't want to find myself in such a situation (hopefully I never will) and then also discover I can't defend myself/family because of the "lack" of it.

Sorry for the long post. I know it's probably one of those things you can't put a finger on but would appreciate the inputs.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

Great question.

I see self defense mindset is as simple as, being aware of your surroundings.

If you can do that you are good to go. Look ahead to where you want to go, look around you as you get there, and if you are walking in to a likely ambush location avoid it. If not avoidable notice your situation move forward with speed and a active mind and you will be fine.

To many fake trainers talk about mindset this, mindset that. Its easy to talk about something that is always changing and there is no wrong way per-say.

So take it for what its worth.

John
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

In the context of basic marksmanship, it's about getting the mind off what's not important and on to what is important. I know that covers a lot of ground, but, for the most part, it's about thinking about the relationship between the sight and target, rather than "gee that target is small". I think a mental management program is good for any who are distracted from what is important. For me, it's a procedure beginning with sight alignment followed by NPA and then focus of the sight, smooth trigger control, and follow through.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

As generic civilian that's also never been in a high stress/ use of force situation, I can honestly say I feel confident in what I would do. There's a lot more out today on the subject than there was years ago. Reading Col. Grossman or Gavin de Becker would probably be a good place to start gaining some insight into how the human mind and body works during a life threatening situation.

I think Sterling brings up a great point. The very act of training and concentrating on the fundamentals programs your brain do tell your body what it needs to do. Hopefully the body does without having to think about it. I think it's also a lot about visualization.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

when you start slicing the pie everytime you turn a corner - then you got it.

when you notice bulges in peoples clothes - then you got it.

when you run mental scenario's of what would you do if....?(when walking in walmart, or standing in line at the bank) - then you got it.

practice dry fire drills from concealment in the car with the seat belt on - then you got it.

practice dry fire drills from the bed and live fire from your traditional sleeping position at the range - then you got it.

realizing, accepting, and preparing yourself that you may have to do what needs to be done in a kill or be killed situation - even realizing that you may sustain injury yourself, without
hesitation, - then you got it.

it's not paranoia, it's situational awarness, and the MINDSET to act on the situation if need be.

much of it is muscle memory, all of it is mental and emotional willingness.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

im was breed for it 3 generations in the army great grandfarther-ira,grandfarther,secret service& intellegent officer+ sume other things,Dad was in navy... lol . i think most people hesitate to pull the trigger so would their only be 2 types of people in a combat situation those who can and those who cant >?
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

Top Predator and J.Boyette both nailed it. Situational awareness and training really is the key to being ready for the fight.

I'm sure you've heard this before, but to answer your question I believe you never really know if you have it until it is needed. That's just life and the human mind, as sometimes even someone who is highly trained chokes the first time. The best way to ensure it won't happen to you is through practice of techniques and skills. Even bringing something like Airsoft into the mix and going force on force with your buddies helps out too. It's a lot harder when the target is both moving and shooting back at you.

If you're not already doing it, I would also recommend some type of unarmed defensive training, as the actual physical contact with an opponent does a lot to sharpen your defensive skills and bring out the aggression in a man necessary to win the day. Hand to hand training also completes the defensive fighting spectrum.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

Correct,... learn how to read people, and situational awareness. The how's and why's of any training taken there after will be easier to understand, and execute properly.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

Mindset is not just about skills. I know alot of very skillful people who have attended alot of "tactical" shooting classes and on the surface, they look like the real deal, always scanning for threats being prepared for the worst, always have their guns, knives and lights on their person. Now these folks are great shooters and appear to have the right mindset and, grant you, some of them might. But there are some in this category that I wouldn't want within a mile of me in a bad fight.
Mindset to me is a predisposition to win, no matter what, then augmenting that predisposition with appropriate training to help accomplish the desired result.
I used this analogy once: You have a choice of two people to take into a fight. First is a world class IPSC shooter who shoots hundreds of thousands of rounds a year and is sponsored by ammunition, firearms and gear companies, attended every major training school in the country but has never been in a fight. Second is a 38 year old 0300 Marine Gunnery Sgt who shoots well enough to earn his rifle and pistol expert badge but wouldn't win a practical pistol comp in a 100 years but has been fighting since he was 19 years old . Who do you want by your side in the fight?
Me personally, I'm going to take the guy that would beat you to death with your own femur when he ran out of ammo. That, to me, is mindset.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

Situational Awareness is the skills matrix of forming a mental representation and understanding of; objects, events, people, system states, interactions, environmental conditions, and other situation-specific factors affecting human performance in complex and dynamic tasks/events. Stated in layman’s terms, SA is simply “knowing what is going on around you, so you can figure out what to do or not do”. It is also “what you need to know so as not to be surprised”. Intuitively it is one's answers (or ability to think and react) to such questions as: What is happening? Why is it happening? What will happen next? What can or should I do about it?

An individual’s situational awareness skills and mindset are in direct proportion to their complacency level in what they do. Professionals continue to train and strive to ALWAYS improve. When those who work in LE or military that deal in the use of deadly force, become complacent or have a mind set of their work becoming mundane, watch out.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Question; can situational awareness be taught? Or is it a trait you either have or not?</span>

Bottom line.... As an armed citizen you need to keep training and have SA because if you ever have to use deadly force knowing what is going on around you is just as important as your shooting skill.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

I'm certainly no expert, however, in my opinion....

He who fully commits to violence first, usually wins.

Mindset is understanding that you need to train your brain to be willing and able to react at any moment to what ever presents it's self.

From a gun fight to car accident. Always aware, head on a swivel, really looking / scanning... all the time. ALL THE TIME!

It is a life style... I take responsibility for my environment.

I count on no one else.... it is always my fault.

I will always win.... period... whatever!
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

It's where the thought and strategy behind the violence lies. Presupposing a violent outcome, the gathering storm of a bar fight can provide some insight:

Victim mindset: "I just don't want to get hurt."

Reactionary mindset: "If he touches me, I'll knock the corn out of his shit."

Tough guy mindset: "I'll call him out in front of all my friends, and push him in the chest like I used to do on the playground."

Predatory mindset: "I'll wait until the bar is really crowded and his back is to me, grab somebody's beer mug and sink the heavy, sharp corner of it behind his ear as hard as I fucking can."

--Fargo007
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when you start slicing the pie every time you turn a corner - then you got it.</div></div>

Damn you too
shocked.gif
I thought it was just me
laugh.gif
.

IMHO the best mind set is to be aware of where you're at, who/what is around you. Always have a plan, even if it's just "CHARGE!!!". If you pay enough attention to the first line you will avoid 99.9% of the bad things that happen to dumb people. For the 0.1% See line 2.

Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

A bunch of years ago at the police academy... one of our instructors gave us a fantastic piece of advice:

Be polite. Be courteous. Be professional. And have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Planning means keeping up situational awareness. But also deciding in advance that if things go bad. Where are you going to move? What will you do first? Second? Are you going to back off? Move forward and go hands-on? Draw firearm? Draw Taser? Draw Pepper? Seek Cover? Radio for backup? Let the subject run and get him later? Call K-9? There are a million options. But all you have to do is pick a couple so you don't go into brain lock if something does happen. Your plan may go to he** in 2 seconds... but at least you have a plan for the critical first few seconds.

The planning also means watching where you sit in restaurants. It's watching other people in convenience stores. It's looking at people's eyes. It's looking at their clothing and mannerisms. It's making sure that 'individuals' aren't actually part of groups or supported by someone else. Be alert and scan all the time... but don't just go through the scanning motions... have some good ideas of what you are scanning for!

If you want some good reading, look at the FBI LEOKA studies and books. They are free online. They dissect a lot of LE engagements where officers get hurt or killed. Most of the studies include the participation of either the officer or the perp or both. The case studies are very worthwhile reading.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moneey</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My question is how do you know if you have it?</div></div>

Pressure test it, then you will know for sure.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moneey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I searched the site and SH google but didn't find anything.

First off, I am not LEO/MIL, just a civy. I have attended a few courses. I am not an "expert" in weaponcraft but I do feel comfortable with 'em. Every class I've been to always speaks of the mindset; how to build it, etc. My question is how do you know if you have it? I've asked but the answers seem to revolve around "You'll know when you find yourself in a self-defense situation" or "If you're taking classes then you have it".

I have friends who take classes but have said they would not be able to pull the trigger if they had to. They attend classes just to get some "range" time. Actually being in a self-defense situation may be the only way to know but there must be something that can help someone gauge their mentality. I am not satisfied with the answers so far so I'm still searching.

Basically, I would like to know so that I can analyze myself. That way, if I'm lacking then I can improve/correct it. I don't want to find myself in such a situation (hopefully I never will) and then also discover I can't defend myself/family because of the "lack" of it.

Sorry for the long post. I know it's probably one of those things you can't put a finger on but would appreciate the inputs.</div></div>

There are plenty of people that just can't pull the trigger, even in a self-defense situation, which is what I think your trying to get at. I forget the exact statistics from Grossman's "On Killing" , but it was pretty amazing how many soldiers in WWII didn't have the mindset to kill. The interesting thing, however, that it could be overcome with "training" or socialization. Some of it was religious background, the fear of breaking the Ten Commandments and the "thou shall not kill" - which in some versions of the Bible is "thou shall not murder" - providing a distinction between murder and killing. You have to believe in that difference if you are going to protect your family.
In a self-defense class at Thunder Ranch, Clint Smith insisted we yell at our targets while shooting; I remember him saying "that's not just a paper target that's the m*f* that wants to rape your wife and kill your child". I've been to 5 self-defense handgun classes, that was the only one that trained that way.
Another useful training tool, if you haven't already done so, is force-on-force or simmunitions training. Is it still going to guarantee you can pull the trigger to defend if you have to? No, but its probably the closest thing you can do to the real thing. Irregardless, its something you really do need to sort out in your head before you ever decide to display a weapon. And if you still have doubts, get a big dog.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

bottom line is that it is self defense, it's either you or them. or a family member or them. someone is going to have to walk away, it might as well be you.

and as self defense, "surviving" should be at the top of the mindset. you don't HAVE to put an attacker down, you just have to ESCAPE a situation so that an attacker doesn't put <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">you or one of yours </span></span>down.

...of course there's that saying about a particular person's being not telling tales.

but in the end, it is about surviving the conflict, and surviving it is, or at least should be at the top of the list.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

From what I've seen in simmuniton training and in actual case events, one of 3 things happens when a person is surprised by fire:
1) you freeze - what a vast majority do
2) you take cover - what some do
3) return fire - the fewest

Your goal should be to eliminate #1 from your responses and to utilize #2 and #3 for the appropriate situation.

Keep in mind that shooting isn't always the goal. I forget which SWAT agency it was where the secondary entry team engaged the primary entry team and vice versa. The primary response to "why did you fire?" was "I heard the shots from.."

As was thrust upon earlier, but there is more to it than the "kill or be killed", fight back , do what needs to be done mentality. Granted, the ability to respond with APPROPRIATE force (which would include deadly force) is a key component of situational awareness. However, one must also recognize when force is not an appropriate or the best option. For example, are you aware of the best way out of a structure....and alternative routes? Are you prepared to deal with a surprise situation...such as medical trauma to yourself or others? Statistically speaking, you're much more likely to have to use an AED than a firearm.


In short, if you are good, you will be able to recognize dangerous situations, identify targets, and respond appropriately in a matter of a few seconds.

If you're really good, you should be able to avoid a lot of these situations.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Statistically speaking, you're much more likely to have to use an AED than a firearm.


</div></div>
Statistically speaking, as taught in TR, you are more likely to die in bed by fire than an intruder (keep a fire extinguisher by the bed?). On the AED - I mentioned in a recent post the price point has come way down- can get them for under $1300 now.

And FYI - TR is no longer down south - they moved to Oregon!
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moneey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically, I would like to know so that I can analyze myself. That way, if I'm lacking then I can improve/correct it.</div></div>

Do you participate in any combative sports?

I am not talking about training to be a fighter. I am talking about any activity that pits you against another human being in a test of physical strength through aggressive action where there is the potential for pain.

It's easy to talk about "combat mindset" and drill with firearms, etc. It's much harder to carry through with it after you have just been busted in the face, bloodied, cut, broken, etc.

Boxing is a good example. I suck at it. It sucks as a defensive art because there are too many rules and no ground fighting. However I don't think there are many better contests that require you to put yourself at risk of physical harm to accomplish the goal. If you are in range to hit, you are in range to get hit. After getting busted in the face a couple times you learn. You know you are going to get hit. Do you still step in the ring and go after your opponent? That is the mindset you have to develop.

When you are faced with violence, the only answer is violence. If you have never experienced violence in a controlled manner, then you are unlikely to have developed the systems to deal with it.

In no way, shape or form is recreational shooting a means to train to deliver violence in response to violence.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

I second the recommendation of "Book of Five Rings".

Keep training and thinking. Under grave stress, you won't "rise to the occasion", you will revert back to your level of training.

When you train, if you find yourself doing the hard things that you don't know well, or are difficult to do, rather than the things that you already know and are good at, your mindset is heading in the right direction.

You really won't know how you will react until you actually "see the elephant", but if you train often and hard, chances are very good that your training will kick in and help you to do better...maybe even succeed.

The harder you train, the luckier you get when you do see the elephant.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And FYI - TR is no longer down south - they moved to Oregon!</div></div>

Thanks. I actually meant south from WA.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moneey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically, I would like to know so that I can analyze myself. That way, if I'm lacking then I can improve/correct it.</div></div>

Do you participate in any combative sports?

</div></div>

I have done goju ryu and escrima in the past. I've stopped because I haven't had time for it..actually probably not trying hard enough to make time for it. We use to spar and that was an eye-opener. You feel the first strike of a stick, etc but after that your so focused on defending yourself that you don't even know how many times you've been struck until you count your bruises. I've never done any competition or anything like that.

I have a few more things to think about now so thank you for the replies.

In the end, I hope I never "find" the answer to this question.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

I used to do a jujutsu style where for the advanced tests, they would work you to exhaustion before the testing even started. It didn't make sense to me until later. If you are extremely tired, your mind doesn't work as well as when you are fresh.

Decisions made with the conscious mind (outside block, strike) take too long. Then, if the people testing you realized that you were functioning out of the unconscious mind, then they knew that you had trained long enough for the moves and concepts to be truly in place in your unconscious. At that point, you simply "do" without having to think "I need to do an outside block, then a punch". In a fight, if you can use the unconscious mind, you are much faster.

At that point, when stress causes you to revert back to the level of your training, you are much better off.

You don't "rise to the occasion", you revert back to your training. That is why the Marines and other branches of the military train people so hard. Many people from outside see the training as overly harsh, but when it eventually saves the life of the trainee, the "harsh" training it took to push the knowledge and muscle memory into the unconscious mind is well worth it.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

Pretty new to the site and just read this thread...

The right mindset is doing the right thing for the situation at the right time. That right thing could be different things depending how fast you react as others have pointed out.

Can you learn it? I think yes it is learned but most that REALLY have a good SA have developed it over a vast amount of time. Finding yourself in specific situations for long periods can speed it up tremendously.

Ever see an old vet that can't sit in a restaurant without having his back to a wall? If you want to know if YOU have a good mind set STUDY yourself. What did YOU think about when I said that? Do you think "Why does he do that?" do you start asking yourself questions and weighing the odds of the possible answers? What is he seeing? Who is he watching? What is his plan?

Do YOU think about these things when you are eating a meal? Walking into a convenience store? Going into a public restroom?

If you are always ready you are gonna act not only faster, but smarter...
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moneey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically, I would like to know so that I can analyze myself. That way, if I'm lacking then I can improve/correct it.</div></div>

Do you participate in any combative sports?

I am not talking about training to be a fighter. I am talking about any activity that pits you against another human being in a test of physical strength through aggressive action where there is the potential for pain.

It's easy to talk about "combat mindset" and drill with firearms, etc. It's much harder to carry through with it after you have just been busted in the face, bloodied, cut, broken, etc.

Boxing is a good example. I suck at it. It sucks as a defensive art because there are too many rules and no ground fighting. However I don't think there are many better contests that require you to put yourself at risk of physical harm to accomplish the goal. If you are in range to hit, you are in range to get hit. After getting busted in the face a couple times you learn. You know you are going to get hit. Do you still step in the ring and go after your opponent? That is the mindset you have to develop.

When you are faced with violence, the only answer is violence. If you have never experienced violence in a controlled manner, then you are unlikely to have developed the systems to deal with it.

In no way, shape or form is recreational shooting a means to train to deliver violence in response to violence. </div></div>

I have not personally been in military combat, but I have been in a few scrapes in the past, and concur 100% with this assessment.

"Combat sports" tend to amp up the stress level and give you some sense of what it might be like in a real combat type scenario, where you have to be aggressive and fight, or get hurt. Believe it or not, paintball is a great way to get past that fear reaction and force yourself to actually perform under stress.

I have played paintball about a half dozen times, and every time it takes me a round or two to get back to the idea that I need to be aggressive, take the fight TO the enemy, and fight past exhaustion, pain, etc. so I don't' get "killed."

Paintballs HURT, and even though you know they won't kill you, you don't want to get hit either, and there is just something about small fast moving objects flying your direction which brings out the survival instinct. I actually think too much paintball would be a bad thing, as you would get accustomed to not being injured or killed, and might take it too lightly. But I do think it could be useful to integrate into a periodic training regime.

Maybe try that and let us know.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magnum_99</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moneey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically, I would like to know so that I can analyze myself. That way, if I'm lacking then I can improve/correct it.</div></div>

Do you participate in any combative sports?

I am not talking about training to be a fighter. I am talking about any activity that pits you against another human being in a test of physical strength through aggressive action where there is the potential for pain.

It's easy to talk about "combat mindset" and drill with firearms, etc. It's much harder to carry through with it after you have just been busted in the face, bloodied, cut, broken, etc.

Boxing is a good example. I suck at it. It sucks as a defensive art because there are too many rules and no ground fighting. However I don't think there are many better contests that require you to put yourself at risk of physical harm to accomplish the goal. If you are in range to hit, you are in range to get hit. After getting busted in the face a couple times you learn. You know you are going to get hit. Do you still step in the ring and go after your opponent? That is the mindset you have to develop.

When you are faced with violence, the only answer is violence. If you have never experienced violence in a controlled manner, then you are unlikely to have developed the systems to deal with it.

In no way, shape or form is recreational shooting a means to train to deliver violence in response to violence. </div></div>

I have not personally been in military combat, but I have been in a few scrapes in the past, and concur 100% with this assessment.

"Combat sports" tend to amp up the stress level and give you some sense of what it might be like in a real combat type scenario, where you have to be aggressive and fight, or get hurt. Believe it or not, paintball is a great way to get past that fear reaction and force yourself to actually perform under stress."

Paintballs HURT, and even though you know they won't kill you, you don't want to get hit either, and there is just something about small fast moving objects flying your direction which brings out the survival instinct. </div></div>

I never thought of combat sports in this discussion but it is an excellent point.

And although paintballs hurt, I have heard simunitions hurt more; and to me (I stated this in a post along time ago), a Brazilian (wax) hurts much, much more than being hit with simunitions, even in close range within a shoothouse.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question; can situational awareness be taught? Or is it a trait you either have or not?</div></div>

Situational awareness cannot be taught, as "taught" implies transmission of knowledge from one individual to another in an effective way.

SA can be <span style="font-weight: bold">learned</span>, though. Each must learn it for themselves through consistent personal practice.
 
Re: How to gauge one's mindset

I agree 100% spend a nite out of the week getting the crap beat of ya
it will build some positive motivation should you have to defend youreself...
 
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