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Re: How to seat on the lands?
Get a Bullet Seating Depth Tool from Sinclair, a set of decent calipers, and bullet comparators for whatever calibers you are shooting.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35491/Product/Sinclair_Bullet_Seating_Depth_Tool
Measure the length of your chamber from the bolt face to the lands, and then measure your loaded round to the ogive of the bullet with the calipers and comparator. Then do the math on the .010 and adjust the seating depth accordingly.
Sounds complicated, but it's not if I can do it.
Get a Bullet Seating Depth Tool from Sinclair, a set of decent calipers, and bullet comparators for whatever calibers you are shooting.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35491/Product/Sinclair_Bullet_Seating_Depth_Tool
Measure the length of your chamber from the bolt face to the lands, and then measure your loaded round to the ogive of the bullet with the calipers and comparator. Then do the math on the .010 and adjust the seating depth accordingly.
Sounds complicated, but it's not if I can do it.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
MOST not all factory chambers is out of the question. Our country's current legal system and people sueing for everything has taken care of that.
But... on the off side that you happen to have either a custom chamber or a fluke in a factory chamber, use a very long heavy bullet in a case with no primer or powder. It usually works better with a case that has only been slightly neck sized. Just enough to hold the bullet. You probably want it loose enough that you can push the bullet into the case with your bare hands.
Barely seat the bullet into the case. Then use a "Magic Marker, Sharpie, or Dykem Blue to mark up the front half of the bullet. After the coloring has dried, insert the cartridge and close the bolt. If you have a lot of neck tension this is not going to be an easy task. I have bruised the heel of my hand on several occassions doing this. Use extreme caution if you should choose to use ANY kind of a hammer. Even a dead blow or leather mallet. Bolt handles do go flying across the room.
After the bolt closes fully, open the bolt and carefully remove the cartridge. Don't let the extractor / ejector throw it across the room.
Measure your length. I prefer to use a base to ogive measurement. But some people still like to do the Over All Length. That number is your MAX length, FOR THAT PARTICULAR BRAND OF BULLET. If you change bullet makers, weight, design, flat base or hollow point, it will change. If you look near the ogive on the bullet you should find little marks where the lands scratch the bullet.
Adjust your dies to make the cartridge .010" shorter. You have it. But at this point I general reduce the powder charge a bit. Pressure spikes can ruin your day if they are too big or last too long. To measure time in nanoseconds for a pressure spike actually seems slow.
Read a lot more before you try this. Don't take my word for it. Ask a lot of people and read everything you can find on it.
Another thought, if you have a factory chamber that is short enough to do this. Double check your magazine length. Usually factory chambers are too long for most "touching lands" type loads to feed reliably. They have to be hand fed, one at a time.
Good luck in your choices.
MOST not all factory chambers is out of the question. Our country's current legal system and people sueing for everything has taken care of that.
But... on the off side that you happen to have either a custom chamber or a fluke in a factory chamber, use a very long heavy bullet in a case with no primer or powder. It usually works better with a case that has only been slightly neck sized. Just enough to hold the bullet. You probably want it loose enough that you can push the bullet into the case with your bare hands.
Barely seat the bullet into the case. Then use a "Magic Marker, Sharpie, or Dykem Blue to mark up the front half of the bullet. After the coloring has dried, insert the cartridge and close the bolt. If you have a lot of neck tension this is not going to be an easy task. I have bruised the heel of my hand on several occassions doing this. Use extreme caution if you should choose to use ANY kind of a hammer. Even a dead blow or leather mallet. Bolt handles do go flying across the room.
After the bolt closes fully, open the bolt and carefully remove the cartridge. Don't let the extractor / ejector throw it across the room.
Measure your length. I prefer to use a base to ogive measurement. But some people still like to do the Over All Length. That number is your MAX length, FOR THAT PARTICULAR BRAND OF BULLET. If you change bullet makers, weight, design, flat base or hollow point, it will change. If you look near the ogive on the bullet you should find little marks where the lands scratch the bullet.
Adjust your dies to make the cartridge .010" shorter. You have it. But at this point I general reduce the powder charge a bit. Pressure spikes can ruin your day if they are too big or last too long. To measure time in nanoseconds for a pressure spike actually seems slow.
Read a lot more before you try this. Don't take my word for it. Ask a lot of people and read everything you can find on it.
Another thought, if you have a factory chamber that is short enough to do this. Double check your magazine length. Usually factory chambers are too long for most "touching lands" type loads to feed reliably. They have to be hand fed, one at a time.
Good luck in your choices.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
Vic...
I'm going to make a comment on your magic marker system if I may. One needs to understand that doing it this way can result in a skewed COAL for several reasons. If the bullet is too loose in the dummy case then the lands/throat, can tug it out a little bit upon extraction. If the bullet is tight in the dummy case and you force the bolt closed then it will jam up into the lands and give you too long of a COAL....and the inexperienced may assume that it's correct. Unless of course, for whatever reason you actually want it jammed into the lands.
A refinement would be use a fully sized dummy case with the proper headspace and usual neck tension. Paint the bullet black with the marker as you suggested. Seat the bullet obviously long. Attempt to chamber the dummy round but by no means try to force the bolt closed if it won't go. Remove the dummy round and inspect the painted area. The lands should be clearly visable on the bullet by the marker being rubbed off by them. Seat the dummy a few thou deeper, repaint the bullet, and try again. IME, you will eventually find a spot where the bolt closes easy enough but there is still a heavy contact of the lands showing. I personally note how much contact there is at that point and even measure it with calipers. I then seat the bullet almost that much deeper and repeat the process with painting the bullet and chambering the dummy round. What I look for is a real light contact of the very beginning of the lands to show. If I screw up and go past it I stick the whole dummy in the kinetic puller and give 'er a whack to set the bullet back out a little longer, then start over. When I finally hit that COAL that just barely shows the lands contacting I seat another one or two thou deeper and call it good.
Of course, for the benifit of others who don't know, this needs to be done for each profile of bullet as ogives are all different from one type/weight bullet to the next, Even lots of the same bullet can be a little different.
Vic...
I'm going to make a comment on your magic marker system if I may. One needs to understand that doing it this way can result in a skewed COAL for several reasons. If the bullet is too loose in the dummy case then the lands/throat, can tug it out a little bit upon extraction. If the bullet is tight in the dummy case and you force the bolt closed then it will jam up into the lands and give you too long of a COAL....and the inexperienced may assume that it's correct. Unless of course, for whatever reason you actually want it jammed into the lands.
A refinement would be use a fully sized dummy case with the proper headspace and usual neck tension. Paint the bullet black with the marker as you suggested. Seat the bullet obviously long. Attempt to chamber the dummy round but by no means try to force the bolt closed if it won't go. Remove the dummy round and inspect the painted area. The lands should be clearly visable on the bullet by the marker being rubbed off by them. Seat the dummy a few thou deeper, repaint the bullet, and try again. IME, you will eventually find a spot where the bolt closes easy enough but there is still a heavy contact of the lands showing. I personally note how much contact there is at that point and even measure it with calipers. I then seat the bullet almost that much deeper and repeat the process with painting the bullet and chambering the dummy round. What I look for is a real light contact of the very beginning of the lands to show. If I screw up and go past it I stick the whole dummy in the kinetic puller and give 'er a whack to set the bullet back out a little longer, then start over. When I finally hit that COAL that just barely shows the lands contacting I seat another one or two thou deeper and call it good.
Of course, for the benifit of others who don't know, this needs to be done for each profile of bullet as ogives are all different from one type/weight bullet to the next, Even lots of the same bullet can be a little different.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
I do the same as Tripwire with my stuff. It is a little tedious, but I am confident that I know where the lands are. With normal neck tension, I don't have to worry about the bullet being moved while extracting. It takes longer, but the confidence is worth it to me.
I do the same as Tripwire with my stuff. It is a little tedious, but I am confident that I know where the lands are. With normal neck tension, I don't have to worry about the bullet being moved while extracting. It takes longer, but the confidence is worth it to me.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
Hornady OAL tool has served my needs
Hornady OAL tool has served my needs
Re: How to seat on the lands?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hornady OAL tool has served my needs</div></div>
+1 on Hornady OAL gauge I use it and it works for me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hornady OAL tool has served my needs</div></div>
+1 on Hornady OAL gauge I use it and it works for me.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
Tripwire...
You are correct with your observations.
If the rifle is new and the rifling sharp, it will indeed, sometimes "bite" into the bullet and sometimes pull the bullet back out when being extracted. An older rifle that has had the throat washed out will not be quiet as quick to "bite" on the bullet.
The best way for beginners to do it is by using one of the production guages like the Hornady / Stoney Point mentioned above.
Tripwire...
You are correct with your observations.
If the rifle is new and the rifling sharp, it will indeed, sometimes "bite" into the bullet and sometimes pull the bullet back out when being extracted. An older rifle that has had the throat washed out will not be quiet as quick to "bite" on the bullet.
The best way for beginners to do it is by using one of the production guages like the Hornady / Stoney Point mentioned above.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
After the coloring has dried, insert the cartridge and close the bolt. If you have a lot of neck tension this is not going to be an easy task. I have bruised the heel of my hand on several occassions doing this. Use extreme caution if you should choose to use ANY kind of a hammer. Even a dead blow or leather mallet. Bolt handles do go flying across the room.
</div></div>
In this "beginner's" opinion, it's totally absurd to beat on a bolt handle hard enough to bruise your hand, and to have to resort to hammers and the possibility of breaking a bolt, to do something as simple as measuring for the OAL on a round. If that comes with the "experienced" level, I'll stay at "beginner".
Tripwire, I used your method before I got the gauge and comparators and it works fine. The tools just make it easier and more accurate. I can measure and record exact seating depths for different bullets and write down the micrometer reading for each from my seating die, and then I can dial back to any bullet I've used before and not have to go back through the try/fit process or keep dummy rounds on hand.
As far as I know, the Stoney Point and Hornady work on the same principle as the Sinclair. I just happened to get the Sinclair first, and I've never used the others.
Signed,
fw707 (aka "beginner")
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
After the coloring has dried, insert the cartridge and close the bolt. If you have a lot of neck tension this is not going to be an easy task. I have bruised the heel of my hand on several occassions doing this. Use extreme caution if you should choose to use ANY kind of a hammer. Even a dead blow or leather mallet. Bolt handles do go flying across the room.
</div></div>
In this "beginner's" opinion, it's totally absurd to beat on a bolt handle hard enough to bruise your hand, and to have to resort to hammers and the possibility of breaking a bolt, to do something as simple as measuring for the OAL on a round. If that comes with the "experienced" level, I'll stay at "beginner".
Tripwire, I used your method before I got the gauge and comparators and it works fine. The tools just make it easier and more accurate. I can measure and record exact seating depths for different bullets and write down the micrometer reading for each from my seating die, and then I can dial back to any bullet I've used before and not have to go back through the try/fit process or keep dummy rounds on hand.
As far as I know, the Stoney Point and Hornady work on the same principle as the Sinclair. I just happened to get the Sinclair first, and I've never used the others.
Signed,
fw707 (aka "beginner")
Re: How to seat on the lands?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The best way for beginners to do it is by using one of the production guages like the Hornady / Stoney Point mentioned above. </div></div>
fw707...
You too are correct. Maybe you didn't get to read my post above.
I stated how I started doing it 30 years ago. There were no factory made guages for handloaders to do this then. I promise that most of the new modern toys that are available today are the result of some old fart, (maybe not too different from myself) thinking, "there has to be a better way".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The best way for beginners to do it is by using one of the production guages like the Hornady / Stoney Point mentioned above. </div></div>
fw707...
You too are correct. Maybe you didn't get to read my post above.
I stated how I started doing it 30 years ago. There were no factory made guages for handloaders to do this then. I promise that most of the new modern toys that are available today are the result of some old fart, (maybe not too different from myself) thinking, "there has to be a better way".
Re: How to seat on the lands?
+1 on the Hornady oal gauge....
+1 on the Hornady oal gauge....
Re: How to seat on the lands?
Build a better mouse trap and old farts will beat a path to your door. I use the Hornady tool myself. LOL! Bruised hands got old a long time ago.
Build a better mouse trap and old farts will beat a path to your door. I use the Hornady tool myself. LOL! Bruised hands got old a long time ago.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
Cleaning rod trick works with some diligence and a calculator.
Insert cleaning rod into empty rifle, from muzzle to breach. (Bolt needs to be closed for this to work) Using masking tape, tape the rod at the muzzle.
Remove rod, insert dummy cartridge with intended projectile and gently close bolt. (You want the case mouth to hold the projectile, but without neck tension. This way the bullet will get pushed into the case when it touches the lands. You can lightly roll crimp the case mouth for this step.)
Reinsert cleaning rod (carefully and gently) until it makes contact with bullet tip. Tape rod at muzzle again.
Remove rod, remove cartridge. Measured distance between tape rings is your OAL* to the lands.
Do this at least 3 or 5 times to ensure consistant readings. It doesn't take much force to push the bullet further into the case, so if you feel like you 'tapped' the rod against the bullet then start over. Get an average of your 'good readings' for a more accurate measurement.
Caveats: Not all bullet lengths are equal. If you measure your bullets you may find that ogive or meplat location can vary as much as ±.003". The more 'tangent' shaped ogives tend to vary in bullet length more than the 'secant' shaped ogives.
*OAL = over-all length. Not to be confused with COL or COAL, which stands for 'comparator overall length'. COAL is measured from case head to the ogive, whereas OAL is measured from case head to bullet tip.
Cleaning rod trick works with some diligence and a calculator.
Insert cleaning rod into empty rifle, from muzzle to breach. (Bolt needs to be closed for this to work) Using masking tape, tape the rod at the muzzle.
Remove rod, insert dummy cartridge with intended projectile and gently close bolt. (You want the case mouth to hold the projectile, but without neck tension. This way the bullet will get pushed into the case when it touches the lands. You can lightly roll crimp the case mouth for this step.)
Reinsert cleaning rod (carefully and gently) until it makes contact with bullet tip. Tape rod at muzzle again.
Remove rod, remove cartridge. Measured distance between tape rings is your OAL* to the lands.
Do this at least 3 or 5 times to ensure consistant readings. It doesn't take much force to push the bullet further into the case, so if you feel like you 'tapped' the rod against the bullet then start over. Get an average of your 'good readings' for a more accurate measurement.
Caveats: Not all bullet lengths are equal. If you measure your bullets you may find that ogive or meplat location can vary as much as ±.003". The more 'tangent' shaped ogives tend to vary in bullet length more than the 'secant' shaped ogives.
*OAL = over-all length. Not to be confused with COL or COAL, which stands for 'comparator overall length'. COAL is measured from case head to the ogive, whereas OAL is measured from case head to bullet tip.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
Take a sized case and put 1 or 2 slits in the neckdown to the shoulder. Clean up the burrs. Place a bullet in the case and leave it long. Place it in the chamber and either close the bolt on it or push it with a dowell until the case shoulder makes contact with the chamber. Remove and measure. I have found with some chambers the case and bullet will have to be pushed back with a cleaning rod or dowell. Repeat several times and take note of measurments. This will give you a way to measure where your bullets touch the lands and it will only cost you 1 sized case.
Take a sized case and put 1 or 2 slits in the neckdown to the shoulder. Clean up the burrs. Place a bullet in the case and leave it long. Place it in the chamber and either close the bolt on it or push it with a dowell until the case shoulder makes contact with the chamber. Remove and measure. I have found with some chambers the case and bullet will have to be pushed back with a cleaning rod or dowell. Repeat several times and take note of measurments. This will give you a way to measure where your bullets touch the lands and it will only cost you 1 sized case.
Re: How to seat on the lands?
I have used a dowel rod in a manner very similar to the cleaning rod method.
Take a dowel rod (obviously the diameter of the dowel has to be less than the diameter of the bore)and with a closed bolt, insert the dowel into the barrel from the muzzle end. With slight pressure hold dowel against your bolt face and mark the dowel at the muzzle end of the barrel. Then using a bullet and an unprimed case, slightly set the bullet in the case and load it into the chamber. Close the bolt and reinsert the dowel from the muzzle end of the barrel until it comes into contact with the tip of the bullet. Use just enough pressure to keep the dowel in contact with the bullet and mark the rod at the muzzle end.
This will give you two marks on the dowel to coincide with the OAL of your cartridge. If you can put a small piece of scotch tape or painters tape on the dowel, it might mark easier... I use a set of calipers to measure the two lines on the dowel and that gives me the OAL of the cartridge.
Hope that helps.
I have used a dowel rod in a manner very similar to the cleaning rod method.
Take a dowel rod (obviously the diameter of the dowel has to be less than the diameter of the bore)and with a closed bolt, insert the dowel into the barrel from the muzzle end. With slight pressure hold dowel against your bolt face and mark the dowel at the muzzle end of the barrel. Then using a bullet and an unprimed case, slightly set the bullet in the case and load it into the chamber. Close the bolt and reinsert the dowel from the muzzle end of the barrel until it comes into contact with the tip of the bullet. Use just enough pressure to keep the dowel in contact with the bullet and mark the rod at the muzzle end.
This will give you two marks on the dowel to coincide with the OAL of your cartridge. If you can put a small piece of scotch tape or painters tape on the dowel, it might mark easier... I use a set of calipers to measure the two lines on the dowel and that gives me the OAL of the cartridge.
Hope that helps.
