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Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

M

MahaloMoFo

Private
Minuteman
May 18, 2010
3
0
48
Dallas, TX
I am wanting to get started in shooting tactical competitions and I have a concern. Would using a rifle with an internal magazine put me at a huge disadvantage? I’m currently shooting a Rem 700P. It’s been blueprinted, bedded, etc and shoots pretty well. But from watching some of the videos of these tactical competitions it looks like quite a few mag changes are needed. I’m going to be building a custom rifle over the spring and summer, so this setup would just be for part of the year.

I guess I’m just curious if it’s even worth it, especially being a beginner. Or if anyone has any suggestions on an easy way to access more rounds during an actual stage, i.e bag on the stock, etc. It would be much appreciated.

Thanks for any tips.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

Got to ask yourself if you are trying to win or , use your equipment the best you can. You can always add it later ,

you may change stocks or figure the $$ is better spent on a new trigger or reloading supplies.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

being a top loader has its challenges.....for some time now it has been glaringly apparent that this is an equipment race, and co-incedently most all countries of the world got a magazine fed bolt gun, stages at comps almost always dictate a 10 round DBM....and so it has become a way of the world to stay competitive
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I've been shooting a 5rd AE in the comps for years. The only time I've absolutely needed ten rounds is on mover stages at Rifles Only, and in that case I load four fives (two for each pass).

Not having a magazine is a bit of disadvantage on some of the shorter range run-and-gun stages, which are getting more popular now, but I have seen people with box mags do quite well.

If you are building a R700 for the comps, then a DBM is a good idea. But I wouldn't let it hold you back from competing. Either way, it's a fairly simple modification to make.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

It definitely requires you to step up your training to overcome any potential shortcomings associated to top feeding a bolt gun during a fast paced tactical competition.

While it might have its disadvantages in certain stages, it can be a benefit in other stages, especially if you learn to load it well.

For prone stages with a high round counts like movers, finding an efficient means to single feed it can keep you competitive. The biggest issue is when you happen to foul the internal magazine trying to load too many rounds or too fast. Usually there is a stopping point, like 3 rounds where you can load it effectively every time. After that you have to have a means of single loading it. Otherwise the related jam is much harder to clear and will cost you time and shots.

But in stages where you are running and gunning it can help by only loading the necessary rounds and then moving on. I have seen new shooters have just as much trouble loading an unloading a magazine at each stage as the guys top loading. So again, training.

Training can overcome 90% the limitations, but because it means a lot of very specific work, most opt to get a magazine and forgo the extra work.

Honestly though in this day and age, it's kinda silly not to have a DBM installed doesn't make the rifle any less accurate.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I started with a remington 5R internal magazine. There is a definite advantage to mag fed but it shouldn't make you sit out half the season. Keep in mind that 5 single loaded well placed rounds will beat 10 spray and pray rounds in most comps.

Honestly the easiest thing I found to single load from the belt are the plastic 10 round holders thet the FGMM come in. They have built in belt loops and cost nothing. Some stock ammo pouches cause you to have to break your cheek weld which really slows things down. Feeding from the belt allows you to stay on target.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I just did the Mammoth match with a blind mag. It felt like I was wasting time loading, and my spotter said it seemed like forever, waiting for the "click........click..........click.......click" of me loading to be over. In all honesty though, the blind mag really didn't hold us back very much at all, with me as primary shooter. I'd guess it cost us 2-3 points overall. As mentioned, if you're in contention to win/place/show, you'll want the DBM. You can do well without. Chances are (no offense intended), if you have to ask about it, you have a lot of bigger issues to contend with than lack of DBM. This applies to me as well!
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

Top Loaders are non-existant at matches anymore. When somone shows up with one its automatic to hear them saying never again at the end of the match.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I actually handed my rifle to George back in 2007 after losing points and coming in 4th at the Snipers Hide Cup by having a top loader and had him take it back to GAP and put a DBM in. All my rifles have DBMs. No reason not to.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When somone shows up with one its automatic to hear them saying never again at the end of the match. </div></div>

Very true....
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

Thanks for all the input. I agree whole heartedly that DBM is the way to go. But since I plan on building a more "competition style" rifle this summer, I probably won't spend the money just upgrading this one right now.

And since I've never even witnessed a tactical competition first hand, I'll try and spectate a couple first just to get a better idea on what kind of setup I need.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MahaloMoFo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the input. I agree whole heartedly that DBM is the way to go. But since I plan on building a more "competition style" rifle this summer, I probably won't spend the money just upgrading this one right now.

And since I've never even witnessed a tactical competition first hand, I'll try and spectate a couple first just to get a better idea on what kind of setup I need. </div></div>

Don't just spectate. Register!
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSG Chris Rance</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or just so semi route. It's given us a great advantage at comps and overseas. </div></div>Semis are a pain when the rules say that you have to move with bolt open and magazine out, because you have to eject a live round and fiddle with the bolt.

Of course, if you have lots of free match ammo and you don't handload VLD's there's less of a downside to them.
wink.gif
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I have seen one shooter consistently do extremely well with a top loader. This individual spent a lot of time training with the rifle this way to become as proficient as he is with it.

That said, unless you are this particular shooter, you should be looking at a DBM as part of any gun you are buying or having built.

Also happy to read the SSG refer to precision/tactical competition as valid experience behind the gun. I've always believed it to be true as well.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

The US Army's M24 is a military adaptation of an off-the-shelf hunting rifle.

Of course the goal is one-shot / one-kill. If the are 20 goobers out there I want to kill all 20 with one shot. Hard to do if you're hand-jamming single cartridges.

Most games and training exercises are now set up for multiple target engagements. Combat proves that after the first shot and dropped knucklehead the others tend to scatter or try to squirt away from the first dead guy (instead of standing stationary like a steel target waiting for re-engagement).
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSG Chris Rance</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or just so semi route. It's given us a great advantage at comps and overseas. </div></div>Semis are a pain when the rules say that you have to move with bolt open and magazine out, because you have to eject a live round and fiddle with the bolt.

Of course, if you have lots of free match ammo and you don't handload VLD's there's less of a downside to them.
wink.gif
</div></div>

I dunno... I'm a brass rat and don't like shucking live rounds into the dirt, but after you spend $200ish match registration, travel, food, lodging etc etc, the $20 in lost live ammo is a drop in the bucket. Also, the AR isn't much different than a boltgun in this regard... When clearing your rifle to move to a new position, are you going to carefully remove the live round and pocket it, or shuck it out into the dirt?

An advantage to the blind mag is time awareness. You shoot 5 and start loading more, meanwhile you consider how much more time you're gonna spend in that position...2 more shots? 5? When you eject your last empty, its time to move.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An advantage to the blind mag is time awareness. You shoot 5 and start loading more, meanwhile you consider how much more time you're gonna spend in that position...2 more shots? 5? When you eject your last empty, its time to move.</div></div>

Or just load mags with the specific rounds you need and still get faster reloads? I would rather have more rounds incase of feeding or other issues so you can stay on pace.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I've shot the Shooter Bash top loading my Sako. Most stages were not a problem but when you had to shoot a 10 shot string under time limits, you are truely at a disadvantage. Like George said, I walked away saying " never again ".
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

Just go and try it out. I've only done one match so far and only having 1 5 round magazine is NOT why I didnt win lol. 5 rounds is enough for most things, and when it isn't it really isn't the biggest deal to load from the top like I did for one or two stages. For prone I just had the rounds right next to me and if in positions then just have them in your pocket.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

The Surgeon, Badger & Jerry Newman detachable mag box are an excellent upgrade to a top feeder if you are wanting to get into competitions.

If you want to have the option of running your stock with both systems or want to leave your stock unmodified then try out Wyatt Outdoors. He has a DMB system that's a drop in replacement to your BDL system.

http://wyattsoutdoor.com/index.php/cPath/2/osCsid/e0467af935f887394ffd8ff9795a326d
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

Or just drop the gun into a chassis system like the AICS, XLR, McCree, Ashbury, Eliseo. They all include a DBM.

Done / Game over.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I have a top loader and have felt disadvantaged in both competitions I attended...
If your new to the game don't spectate... run a couple with your rig.
The best thing you can do is spend the money on a good class to get first class instruction out to 1000 yards first. Thunder Valley here in Ohio for $250 a day is well worth it. Check what is available locally.
Have fun!
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

i ran a top loader at fall pmg and our team finished 11th

didnt hurt me to bad but it is time consuming, switched to cdi dbm
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

LOL I guess my single shot Model 70 would be a "NO GO"

1000%20yd%20Rifle.jpg
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... Also, the AR isn't much different than a boltgun in this regard... When clearing your rifle to move to a new position, are you going to carefully remove the live round and pocket it, or shuck it out into the dirt?... </div></div>

Not quite. On a bolt gun, you're not going to chamber a fresh, live, round, you just drop the mag and lift the bolt handle....

I shot many a comp with a top loader, and YES, I felt somewhat handicapped on some high round count timed stages. Is that the only thing that kept me out of competitive standings? - NO....
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lucks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: A10XRIFLE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When somone shows up with one its automatic to hear them saying never again at the end of the match. </div></div>

Very true.... </div></div>

+1

I shot my first match last summer. Had a blast, but on a few stages (timed) I ran out of rounds a few times and was stuck trying to force more in the top as quick as I could. On the last stage (5 targets, varying distances) I missed the first target (I was shooting at the wrong part of it, hit the next 3 in a row, had to reload and ran out of time. Funny thing is that I hit more then most people out there and I will always wonder.... what if I hadn't run out. I walked away from that final stage and said NEVER AGAIN.

As for being a beginner and wondering if it's necessary. It absolutely is. At least that's my opinion. It's a small amount of money for what you're getting.

Never again.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I just watched The Hoff run a top loader at the panhandle challenge and it was like nothing you've ever seen. I think he came in 6th but considering the talent there it was quite a performance. He smoked a whole lot of shooters with DBM rigs.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just watched The Hoff run a top loader at the panhandle challenge and it was like nothing you've ever seen. I think he came in 6th but considering the talent there it was quite a performance. He smoked a whole lot of shooters with DBM rigs.</div></div>

Not taking anything away from the Hoff because he shot a fine match but the PC wasn't really set up to dump a lot of rounds downrange so if you time the movers right, and you're quick stuffing rounds in, then it is doable. Not arguing with you nor am I taking anything away from the Hoff but I think that when you look at the big multi-day matches vs. a day match the disadvantage of a top loader becomes more and more apparent.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

true mike but even at large matches you can do well our team came in 11th at pmg but i ask myself could we have done better is i had a dbm.

either way my stock is getting shipped off this week to be inletted for my cdi dbm that has been sitting in my safe for a few months.

thanks for the compliments battleaxe and mike you are somewhat correct it really depends on the match and cof. lol
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

hoff did shoot extremely well this weekend.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

The .30-40 Krag has a magazine that allowed a set number of rounds to be roughly dumped in, then they got aligned as the magazine hatch was closed.

I wonder if anyone has experimented with turning a rifle over, popping the mag baseplate, and dropping in the required number of cartridges. Certainly inelegant, but possibly still more efficient than filling a mag from the top, one round at a time.

I have done this on occasion with the ten round SKS magazine. It's definitely faster, but nothing beats the charger clip for a fixed mag. A scout mount would allow stripper clip reloading. Almost as good as a D/M?

Think deeper, think outside...

Diadvantage? maybe..., maybe not so much after all...

Greg
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I started shooting long range comps with a stock Remy 5R. While I think it is a slight disadvantage in timed competitions, I would not let it dissuade you from shooting your first competition.

In my experience, long range guys are the nicest, most humble, and helpful group of dudes you can find (unlike IPSC). Go give it a shot, take a look around, ask questions, get behind some rigs, and figure out what you want.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

agreed 100% just get out and shoot, you will learn a lot along the way and will see the progress you make if you train hard and learn from others and your mistakes. and dont be intimidated by thevbig time shooters like mike, taliv, cka, etc. they are some of the nicest guys i know and most will help you any way they can
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

In my opinion it's not a very big disadvantage at all. I shot the June Woody's Designated Marksman Match with my remmy xcr with internal mag. I went there with a group of 8 counting myself. My partner and I finished middle of the pack but it had nothing to do with the internal mag. Two of the guys that went with us won and one was shooting a single shot savage in 6mmbr and the other was shooting a remmy 700 6mmbr and both were single feeding the rounds. They would set their ammo box beside them and add one round after each shot. Thats what I was doing also after my internal mag would run out, instead of taking the time to load four rounds. Were all going to the Aprils woody's match to try it again, this time I do have a 10 round detachable mag, I'll let you know what the differences seem like and if the single shots do as good this time..
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

Much is going to depend on the way the match is setup.

When time limits are short and targets plentiful a top-loader is going to be an issue.

Keep in mind I still own a couple and strive to run them to their limit. There are a couple tricks to maximizing a top-loader.

The first is practice. You need to be able to drop a round in the loading port without breaking position. If you can't do that, you are screwed. Train to do everything with your cheek glued to the rifle and your eyes looking downrange.

Second, you need a stock pack with ammo loops, a Redman Ammo Card or something similar stuck to the stock. You need ammo close at hand and oriented the correct way. When I can stay prone for the whole stage, I open one of my Ammo Burritos and pre-stage the cartridges partially out of the loops. This allows me to grab them quickly and not fight with boxes, carriers, etc.

If you fumble a round and drop it, forget it. It's gone. You will spend more time trying to pick it up then you will just slamming another one in. If you fish for it, you will run out of time.

Run what's in your magazine and then single load the rest. This is KEY. The only time you should stop and load the magazine again is if you are ABSOLUTELY sure that you have enough time to finish the stage firing all the rounds in the magazine. Wasting time putting rounds into the magazine that you will not fire is stupid. If you practice, single loading is FAR faster than pressing that round into the magazine.

If you blow the reload, don't waste time unfucking the rounds in the magazine. Dump the floorplate and drive on. I have watched guys blow their allotted time trying to correct a round when they could have dumped the mag and at least gotten a couple downrange single loading.

Given the choice, in a big match I will always take the removable magazine rifle. If it's not a long range match or requiring razors edge precision, I am beginning to lean more towards the AR10. It has been seeing more and more of the local matches because the accuracy is only slightly less than some of my bolt guns and the speed is amazing when you learn to really drive it.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

I watched more top loaders run last weekend at the K&M match than I've seen in a long time. One thing I will point out ,though, is that Mr.Shannon was letting the top loaders start off stages full of ammo with the bolt back. Whereas mag fed rifles were starting mag in hand, bolt back. It was a great concept on his part, as there were several new shooters, and several shooters with top loaders, and several new shooters with top loaders. But in most big matches, you start with an empty gun just like everyone else. And THAT makes it a disadvantage. The Hoff asked Mr. Shannon what people were supposed to do that were running toploaders. And his reply was, and I quote, "I suggest you step up your training regiment, or spend the extra dollars for a bottom feed system." That being said, don't let it keep you from going to your first match!
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

Damn Hoff....you don't have that DBM cut in yet?.....I would have dremeled it in by now.
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

haha true morris I laughed so hard when he said that lol. that stage was interesting without a dbm but still manageable.

barrel nut im hoping to send the stock off this week to get inletted. procrastination is a b*tch lol. we're still on for pmg right?
 
Re: Huge Disadvantage with Internal Magazine?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Hoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

barrel nut im hoping to send the stock off this week to get inletted. procrastination is a b*tch lol. we're still on for pmg right? </div></div>

I'm definitely in......we should win it this time.
 
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