Humidity ?

hrfunk

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 18, 2010
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Ohio
I was shooting at the range yesterday, just working on basic precision marksmanship from 100 to 300 yards. From the very beginning, I was hitting about .5 - 1 MOA low. This only about two weeks after shooting the same rifle/ammo and hitting dead on. The problem became even more apparent as the range increased. I don't think it was me, as my groups were hovering around the .5 MOA mark, they were just low.

I checked my data book from my last firing and noted the humidity was about 40% higher yesterday. In fact, most of the time I was shooting I was being rained on to greater or lesser degrees. I know humidity can increase drag on the bullet and cause low hits. I've just never seen it so dramatic before in the 100-300 yard range. Any thoughts?

HRF
 
Re: Humidity ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hrfunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know humidity can increase drag on the bullet and cause low hits. I've just never seen it so dramatic before in the 100-300 yard range. Any thoughts?

HRF</div></div>

I know you are completely wrong and actually don't know...

Humid air is "less dense" and does not cause drag on the bullet, so, that is wrong. As well a difference between 10% humidity and 90% humidity at 1000 yards is so small you can't even hold it.

The real answer is probably a combination of things, but I can assure you, the air "feeling dense" is a human response to it, something which the bullet is not...

see this is exactly what I was saying in the other thread about things that are wrong from the start being reprinted and passed on.
 
Re: Humidity ?

Yes. The temp. was very nearly the same. It appears I have been misinformed during some otherwise very good training. Could you please explain in a little greater detail. I'm just trying to increase my knowledge.

Thanks,
HRF
 
Re: Humidity ?

Not many shooters can tell the difference in humidity to 1000 yards or so.

BUT: Humidity just might be a problem if you are using a wood stock. If the stock isn't propertly impregnated with some sort of sealer.

Many people believes humidity afects the bullet with its really the stock.

We've all seen this with wooden doors that don't fit quite right. there is a difference in the fit on high vs. low humidity days.

This is another reason people say the M14/M1A doesn't
hold a zero. Ones that have sealent impregnated do hold up.
 
Re: Humidity ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hrfunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know humidity can increase drag on the bullet and cause low hits. I've just never seen it so dramatic before in the 100-300 yard range. Any thoughts?

HRF</div></div>

I know you are completely wrong and actually don't know...

Humid air is "less dense" and does not cause drag on the bullet, so, that is wrong. As well a difference between 10% humidity and 90% humidity at 1000 yards is so small you can't even hold it.

The real answer is probably a combination of things, but I can assure you, the air "feeling dense" is a human response to it, something which the bullet is not...

see this is exactly what I was saying in the other thread about things that are wrong from the start being reprinted and passed on. </div></div>

internet is full of it, that's why the online training is so good...
 
Re: Humidity ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hrfunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes. The temp. was very nearly the same. It appears I have been misinformed during some otherwise very good training. Could you please explain in a little greater detail. I'm just trying to increase my knowledge.

Thanks,
HRF</div></div>

You need to list your equipment...

Not all rifles, scopes, stocks, ammunition are created equal, as well we have to consider the shooters which are big part of the equation, so the more detail you provide the better.

Who knows you might be using an untreated wooden stock. However in most cases, things like rain effect the shooter and not the bullet.

With cheaper things like scopes, it could very well be your scope has not properly returned to zero from a previous trip. Which is why it is important to check tracking the maximum effective range of your rifle. Also, water pressure from the rain could have affected your muzzle velocity. Generally speaking that would have caused the rounds to hit high, overpressure should have increased with a wet round.

Finally, DOPE Is simply, Data on PREVIOUS Engagements and really only a starting point for some. The better your rifle and equipment the truer the data will hold, however it simply means that is what worked last time and not necessarily this time. Especially if you have not tested and confirmed the integrity of your system.
 
Re: Humidity ?

Ok. The rifle is a Rem. 700P (obviously a synthetic stock). I have put 1640 rounds through it (the person it was issued to before me did not maintain his data book, so I have no idea what the exact round count may be. Knowing that person, however, I doubt the total count is much higher than mine). The rifle is topped with a Leupold 4.5-14X40 Tactical scope, and I was using it on 14 power during both previous shooting sessions. The system is supported by a Harris bipod, and I was shooting from the prone position. Ammunition was 168gr. Federal GMM, of a lot that I have been using for some time. Day in/Day out this system holds about .65 MOA with me in the driver's seat.

The environmentals for the prior session were: 64 degrees F , 46% Humidity, and 30.29" BP. Last Friday they were: 66 degrees F, 81% Humidity, 29.98" BP, and,as I said, it was raining.

The data I was using for my come-ups has been dead on for years, and while its deviation on the date in question is not tremendous, it was significant enough to cause me to look for its source.

Thanks,
HRF
 
Re: Humidity ?

First off,

Lesson 1, environmental effects either need a very big swing, like the difference between sea level and going up to say 6000 ft before you see any real changes early, like inside 300 yards. The slight changes you posted in humidity, temperature and Barometric pressure aren't enough to show up at 300 yards and in... to demonstrate this simply go to JBM and run the numbers yourself. It's free.

Me just winging it with some basic 168gr numbers and your environmental data I have 16.7 MOA both ways at 600 yards and at 800 yards it changes slightly to 27.3 MOA versus 27.7. So that shows you what effects the weather has on your shots. This helps you understand that you can rule this out.

So you know, the second numbers you posted, as in the day it was raining JBM shows you need "less" dope than the range session before. At a 1000 yards which is actually below supersonic for you, the difference is 42.4 MOA for the rainy day, versus 43.1 MOA the time before. Anecdotally speaking.

For your reference: Bullets like:

High Temperatures
Low Barometric Pressure
High Humidity

Under these conditions the air molecules are excited and therefore spread out causing less air molecules for the bullet to run into per cubic foot of space.

They dislike:

Low Temps,
High Barometric Pressure
Low Humidity

As these conditions cause more parasitic drag on the round by packing more air molecules into the same cubic feet of space.

That is first off...

Now, you the look to your system or you. Were you being affected by the rain ?

Were your round wet, although higher chamber pressures should give you increased velocity, but we can't rule that out just yet.

Most importantly you need to test your scope. The water could have easily affected that, or you can be in the early stages of a problem. Leupolds have a bit of history with things like backlash, so it's possible you had a bit of memory in the springs and it didn't return to zero. The fact it worked last time means very little as it is a mechanical device and subject to failure.

Another question I would have, would be the stock. Is it the over-mold 700P or the H&S stock ? It is bedded, are the action screws torqued properly and have your checked ?

As you can see there is no easy answer, and something that requires you to look at it further. First another day at the range is needed to see if your zero changes again. If it does, I would test the scope across at least 48", an 8" box test will tell you nothing. Then you need to turn the knobs and check zero in a methodical way. If that turns out fine, I would chalk it up to the rain effecting you or the rounds ? But you can't rule you out. Maybe your cheek weld was off, maybe you were scrunching your shoulders, I don't know. But there is no simply answer other to say, I would suspect something in the system. It's not uncommon for your exact set up to drift a bit.
 
Re: Humidity ?

The stock is HS Precision with the aluminum bedding block (I wasn't aware the 700P ever came with an over- molded stock). Action screws are properly torqued to 65 inch-pounds, and the scope mounting hardware is also properly mounted and secured. The scope itself has been boringly repeatable for a long time. I suppose it's possible that it could be getting tired, but I wouldn't expect that. Also, whenever I shoot at ranges beyond 100 yards (or less than 100 yards for that matter), I ALWAYS return to 100 yards and re-set the scope for that distance. In fact, I have a specific drill for just that purpose. I do that in case I have a call out. In such an instance, I don't want any doubt about where my scope settings are. Once the zero is reset, the rifle is cleaned and returned to the case. No one ever touches this system but me.

I guess, at least until I can get back to the range, I'll have to chalk this one up to shooter error. Thanks for the info.

HRF