Rifle Scopes I could use some advice.

[toddious]

I could use some advice. I have two new rifles, a Remington 700 Milspec in 300 Win-Mag and a Smith Enterprise M14EBR. I have never owned or operated a rifle telescope. From the time I first set foot on Parris Island the iron sight and the mark one eyeball have been the uniform of the day.

I have been laboriously piling over reviews, advertisements and books related to the subjects. Most of the information I have compiled tells me that if you buy cheap that’s what you get.

I want to purchase a scope for each rifle, but I want to incorporate a common system or at least similar systems. I think it would be negative training to try and learn two separate systems at the same time.

Most stores I visit for advise try to sell me whatever they happen to have the best margin on. If I happen to ask the 19 year old behind the counter with the bone in his nose which one, in his experience I should consider his answer will likely not be worth the time to ask.

Many folks seem to like the Nightforce optics. Leupold MK4 is another one I’m told is top shelf. US optics, Schmidt and Bender, then I have read about the SWFA SS. The more I read the more confused I become. I don’t want to not spend enough and end up paying a premium after I bought cheap, and I don’t want to waste my money on the Hubble telescope.

The likely use of the 700 will be 80% known distance targets and 20% white tail and maybe if the stars align and I get an elk tag . The M14 I told myself would be for hogs or if need be defending the farm.

If anyone has been down this road before I could use some advice.

 

[gugubica]

Re: I could use some advice.

Best advice I can give?

Figure out the absolute most you can spend...then increase it by 50%

You are correct that you really do get what you pay for here. That said, there is a point of diminishing returns. You can get an optic that will serve your needs for many years for a lot less than one that is mariginally better...but it is better.

Nightforce is, in my opinion, the best value out there. They are tough as nails and offer a lot of features.

The first thing you should do is research front focal plane (FFP) vs second focal plane (SFP) and make a call as to which will work best for your intended use.

For someone with no preconcieved notions on optical adustment systems, I recommend going with mil/mil setups...that is miliradian reticle and miliradian adjustment turrets.

Last, one you have narrowed down what type of scope will work best in what price range, then come here and use the search in my signature to research all the models that fall into your requirements.

Oh, then bump your adjustec price rage a little more.

Eta, in the interest of full disclosure, I don't personally like Nightforce, but I still highly recomend them. It is just a personal thing, some of the features bug me. I have spent a lot of cash over the years using different scopes and wound up in the uber-high price catagory, it is worth it to me, even though I don't really need it.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: I could use some advice.

seek and know what wins in comps....and what also puts bacon on the table......MANY here hunt with their target guns.....heavy but its what many train with.....leupolds mark 4's or earlier vari3 gold ring stuff and nightforce has fit the bill for many here for years......

the only thing i could advise......is pop for a lit reticule....and get the same thing for each gun.......make the triggers identical

 

[TimK]

Re: I could use some advice.

I would have to agree with the poster above that Nightforce give the best value. Leupold is sometimes considered the minimum point of entry for scopes where you will dial for elevation rather than holding over, but my limited personal experience says that's not true. Having owned a couple, I won't own another.

Nightforce, on the other hand, makes very, very good scopes at relatively affordable prices. I own one and am extremely impressed. You could spend more and get more, but with NF I think you have reached the point of diminishing returns.

As for the whole mil/moa debate, I own both and can hardly find a reason to choose between one or the other. If forced to choose, I'd probably go mil/mil for no better reason than it's mathematically elegant.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Re: I could use some advice.

A decent rule of thumb:

How much did you spend on the rifle?

Budget that much for the scope.

Got a good friend I have introduced to "better" shooting, he used to think he was sighted in if he hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Now, he is competent to hit that plate past 400 yards, thanks to a couple classes I sent him to.

Upgraded his equipment too - all Leupold and Zeiss Conquest, not top of line, but solid hunting gear for HIS USE.

He got a new rifle, put a BSA on it. I started in on him, Dude, I thought I had shown you the error of that way??? He was like, it's just temp until I can order another Conquest - he is following very good advice about keeping it all the same.

So.... had lunch with him today - he has a black eye and a cut on his nose.... you see, the new rifle was a 338 RUM!!!!!!

And the scope was rolling around the back of his truck. YOu really do get what you pay for.

Mikee

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: I could use some advice.

Some questions to ask yourself.

How much do I want to spend?
Do I want moa or mil?

I take it you want a tactical/sniper type scope.
Most are pretty good. Even an inexpensive Nikon works great and will get you on paper or steel out to 1000 yards. One thing to know, you need enough elevation to adjust the scope for the distance you want to shoot. Usually you want at least 50moa (which is about 15 mils). Keep that in mind. Most everyone in tactical land puts their scope on a 20 moa base.

I suggest you read
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/

Some people buy the best right away. Others work their way up. Spend more money, you get a better scope.

I bought a Nikon Buckmaster and then bought a Nightforce. I kept the Nikon as a backup. They both work fine, as do most of the other scopes out there so long as they have enough elevation adjustment to shoot the distance you want to shoot.

 

[toddious]

Re: I could use some advice.

Thanks for the advice. You all have confirmed what I was thinking, I just needed to hear it again. One more question. Most folks use target turrets v.s. a BDC. Is that the norm to gain accuracy over speed of engagement?

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: I could use some advice.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toddious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the advice. You all have confirmed what I was thinking, I just needed to hear it again. One more question. Most folks use target turrets v.s. a BDC. Is that the norm to gain accuracy over speed of engagement? </div></div>

tactical/match shooters don't need bdc we spend enough time with the rifle and scope that you eventually memorize the mil or moa to certain distances and then you can accurately use your reticle for holdovers.

 

[cvedrick]

Re: I could use some advice.

Some of the things will go against many peoples ingrained prejudices, please hold back the flames and put a pinch of salt on your plate, I am speaking from MY experiences not what I "have heard"

Freebie for a good load - In my Sendero, 300WM I use 77gr. RE-22 with 165gr. Speer BTSP for Hunting and 168gr SMKs for paper.

You might want to bump the bullet to 175/185, and reduce the powder charges by a grain, I hear from good sources that the 5R barrels tend to like slightly heavier bullets.

I have found that in order to hit something, you need to be able to see it. *Case in point with an 18x scope and bench rest/bag I can paint 12 round groups 1/2" dia or better at 100Yd.*

On the other hand, I have buddies that get perfectly good 1" and 2" groups with holosights at the same distance.

Ask around and see if you can look through various scopes, check that they are clear and do not distort about the edges.

Spend some time at www.opticstalk.com as well as other forums, pay attention to what other people are saying about various scopes, not just brightness, but also how the turrets feel and whether they can "shoot the box."

Money is always a criterion, unless you are a special recipient of government spending, you have to work for what you have and have other uses for it as well. (I know I do)

You are probably going to spend $250-$350 or so on your M1A (receiver)mount if you want one that actually does the job...

You might look into a scout mount that replaces your hand-guard, and use a holosight. It will be detachable for use with your iron sights. Keep in mind though that batteries can degrade quickly in cold weather and look into something that uses off the shelf AA batteries. I am led to understand the Laser Genetics illuminater Is one heck of an accessory, but the batteries tend to degrade quickly below 35F and the external thumb switch accessory has no life to it.

Think about it and give it a try, believe me there are around 1-zillion people out there who would be more than glad to get a used Eotech for $50.00 or so under retail

I would be willing to bet large cash that the guy that sold you your 5R wanted you to go with the Leupold MK4 scope, base and rings. You just plain do not need that.

MK-4 Base is Solid Steel and costs $100.00 or so. Any steel base will weigh more than Aluminum (We are talking about fielding these rifles aren't we? Not just pull them out of the trunk and take the elevator to the roof?) But my real kick is the fact that most scopes are aluminum which expands at a different rate than steel. I would rather have an aluminum base that expands at the same rate as the scope than having the scope rigidly fixed to something that will cause tension with temperature changes.

Also note that you really really do not have to drill and tap a Remington receiver out to 8-40, 6-48 works great if properly torqued, A couple of drops of lock-tite BLUE will hold that base up to anything short of a couple of taps with a mallet sideways to the receiver. (I KNOW this)

(got a rifle recently that had been drilled and the idjit stripped one of the holes out, I still burn about it)

On my latest mid-range rifle I went with an EGW 20MOA aluminum rail $32.00 +/- at Midway

Rings, If ya want to buy the MK-4s for $125.00 or so go ahead, but to me this is like buying a Humvee when what you need is a Wrangler or even a land cruiser. I admit you can remove the scope and rings just by loosening those big nuts on the side but Why??

I have Found that Warne Maximas work just fine and are more than sturdy enough to be "soldier proof" and they only cost $33.00 or so.

So Loopy MK-4 base and rings = $225 or so, EGW base with Warne Rings = $65.00 or so.

On to scopes, I know nothing about Vortex from personal experience, I suggest you call SWFA and pick their brains, they will spend as much time with you as you need. (I find I would rather spend my $1,000 or so with someone who takes the time to make sure what I am buying will make me happy)

Loopy MK-4 The last time I checked there were some complaints about needing to return the knobs all the way to zero before re-setting to a new range/elevation,{the box etc.}(P.I.M.A.) I also found that it was not as clear as the VX-3s. Again try to get a look through both models, It is not what everyone says, it is what you find that works for you that counts.

If you want to spend a bit less, look into the SS, and Wotac brands, this site has many raves about Wotac, I intend to get one when the bank fills up a bit more. I and several of my friends run various fixed power SS's. (Being an Iron sight guy, stick to the fixed 10 for now, you might not be able to pick which eyeball at 500yd, but you can sure turn the pumps into cranberry jelly) Also in this price range are the Swift riflescopes.

(Free Plug here... I put a SS 10x42 side focus on My .300WM Sendero the day I got it (3 years ago)and I have not yet come up with a reason to replace it with something else (not to mention the money), worth every penny, I wish someone would send me a dozen of them, [no SH##] If someone gave me a Premier or a USO I would really have to think about whether I wanted it on that rifle or one of my others, It works, It kicks rear, don't need to change it!)

Another point of interest is a result of Hurricane Katrina, A friend of mine had the opportunity to clean up and restore to service several rifles mounting 4) Leupolds 2)Schmidt and Benders 3)Kahls and 1) High end Nikon and a couple of Swarovskis........

The only scopes that were usable were the Leupolds....

As it may be a few weeks until I get another chance to check this thread, If yo have questions for me, e-mail me

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: I could use some advice.

Watch this review from Snipers Hide's owner. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1843898&page=1

Use the Shipers Hide discount code SSHIDE when you order for 10% off.
Great value.

 

[rifleman0321]

Re: I could use some advice.

Another vote for the SS from SWFA. Great scopes. Maybe a 10x on the .300, and their upcoming 1-4 on the M1A. Would make for a good-all-around two gun arsenal. 10x on the long bolt gun for hits on medium to long-range targets under most conditions, and a lit reticle 1-4x for the demands of hog hunting and defense from 0-600m.