Ok,well I can enter the numbers into the online ballistic thing, print that out and take my rifle and nail the hell out of stuff out to 300yds (longest range around). I understand all that. Heres the deal though. I look at my grouping and I have 3 nice holes in a 1/2" spot at 100 yds how does that translate to mils? My scope is mil/mil. In short Im just missing something but to be honest Im not sure what so dont know where to look. Any ideas?
- Thread starter flemgunner
- Start date
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
not sure what you're asking, but 1 mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yards.
try here: http://www.mil-dot.com/articles/the-mildot-reticle
not sure what you're asking, but 1 mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yards.
try here: http://www.mil-dot.com/articles/the-mildot-reticle
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
Im not quite sure how to put it but I feel like Im missing something???? BTW I know what you call a MOA group what do you call a MIL group?
Im not quite sure how to put it but I feel like Im missing something???? BTW I know what you call a MOA group what do you call a MIL group?
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
What you are missing is an understanding of what MIl and MOA represent. They are not discrete units of distance or length. They are arcs of angle. So the value of 1 MOA whether expressed in inches or centimeters or handspans is different at different distances.
MOA is not imperial and neither is MIL a metric unit.
What you are missing is an understanding of what MIl and MOA represent. They are not discrete units of distance or length. They are arcs of angle. So the value of 1 MOA whether expressed in inches or centimeters or handspans is different at different distances.
MOA is not imperial and neither is MIL a metric unit.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
I call a Mil group too big.
Group size is not a goal, but rather a fleeting frame of reference about a person and their equipment's performance on a given day. All things change, and this is usually part of that.
I think more in terms of how many things I aim at and how many of those I actually hit effectively. In that context, group size has less meaning for me.
Greg
I call a Mil group too big.
Group size is not a goal, but rather a fleeting frame of reference about a person and their equipment's performance on a given day. All things change, and this is usually part of that.
I think more in terms of how many things I aim at and how many of those I actually hit effectively. In that context, group size has less meaning for me.
Greg
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call a Mil group too big.
Group size is not a goal, but rather a fleeting frame of reference about a person and their equipment's performance on a given day. All things change, and this is usually part of that.
I think more in terms of how many things I aim at and how many of those I actually hit effectively. In that context, group size has less meaning for me.
Greg </div></div>
Too big for what? If the objective is to score the lowest sized group then a MIL is simply a frame of reference. It's not a measurement.
Hitting effectively? As defined by? Hitting a 100% IPSC target is not the same as hitting a 25% IPSC target at the same distance. And where on the target?
Effective is defined by the motive behind the shot. If all you're doing is plinking then fine, a hit wherever is good. But even then at what rate of fire? UKD or KD? ranging with reticle or laser? Spotter supported or alone? Lowlight or blazing sunshine? Prone or sitting - bipod, sling etc.
I'm guessing but what the OP is saying is "this is too easy, there has to be more to this than getting 1/2MOA groups at 100yds because I can already do that."
Id' suggest trying to get the Dot Drill at 100, 200 300 yds. See if you match accuracy with high shot count over a longer period of time. It'll test concentration as well as mechanics etc.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call a Mil group too big.
Group size is not a goal, but rather a fleeting frame of reference about a person and their equipment's performance on a given day. All things change, and this is usually part of that.
I think more in terms of how many things I aim at and how many of those I actually hit effectively. In that context, group size has less meaning for me.
Greg </div></div>
Too big for what? If the objective is to score the lowest sized group then a MIL is simply a frame of reference. It's not a measurement.
Hitting effectively? As defined by? Hitting a 100% IPSC target is not the same as hitting a 25% IPSC target at the same distance. And where on the target?
Effective is defined by the motive behind the shot. If all you're doing is plinking then fine, a hit wherever is good. But even then at what rate of fire? UKD or KD? ranging with reticle or laser? Spotter supported or alone? Lowlight or blazing sunshine? Prone or sitting - bipod, sling etc.
I'm guessing but what the OP is saying is "this is too easy, there has to be more to this than getting 1/2MOA groups at 100yds because I can already do that."
Id' suggest trying to get the Dot Drill at 100, 200 300 yds. See if you match accuracy with high shot count over a longer period of time. It'll test concentration as well as mechanics etc.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EH I wish you'd just fuck off once in awhile. You're bloviating again. Can it. </div></div>
lol!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EH I wish you'd just fuck off once in awhile. You're bloviating again. Can it. </div></div>
lol!
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
LOL!
Man; you're quick on the keyboard. you must be camping out on your own posts. I reconsidered that post and deleted it after less than a minute, but sure enough, there you go, pissin' on an otherwise tolerable forum once again.
I get tired of you a lot, but don't feel bad, I get tired of me a lot too.
LOL!
Man; you're quick on the keyboard. you must be camping out on your own posts. I reconsidered that post and deleted it after less than a minute, but sure enough, there you go, pissin' on an otherwise tolerable forum once again.
I get tired of you a lot, but don't feel bad, I get tired of me a lot too.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
Before this crap escalates, I'm gonna go out in the garage and see if I can find that flat tire repair kit I had sometime back. Gotta fix my first flat in a buncha years. Dang!
Before this crap escalates, I'm gonna go out in the garage and see if I can find that flat tire repair kit I had sometime back. Gotta fix my first flat in a buncha years. Dang!
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
I'll be danged, that can of Fixaflat worked. Hopefully it'll be good enough to last until I replace the tires in November.
FWIW, I wasn't serious about any of this exchange. If Anyone needs to take it personally, I'll understand, but I never did.
Greg
I'll be danged, that can of Fixaflat worked. Hopefully it'll be good enough to last until I replace the tires in November.
FWIW, I wasn't serious about any of this exchange. If Anyone needs to take it personally, I'll understand, but I never did.
Greg
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
as mentioned, a mil at the 100 yrd mark is 3.6 inches. but you are a 1/2 moa, if they are a 1/2 inch of of POA. which is good. Your question really doesnt make sense. You arent missing anything but a range with 500 700 and 1000 yards so you can practice longer ranges. Drive farther to the range that has these.
as mentioned, a mil at the 100 yrd mark is 3.6 inches. but you are a 1/2 moa, if they are a 1/2 inch of of POA. which is good. Your question really doesnt make sense. You arent missing anything but a range with 500 700 and 1000 yards so you can practice longer ranges. Drive farther to the range that has these.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
this thread made me chuckle
good times.
hey flemgunner, try shooting groups of 5 or 7 and see how long you can maintain that 1/2 MOA group at 300 or so.
hey man, just an observation, but I think you would get a lot more out of your training if you shit can the printout ballistic stuff and just get more familiar with the scope/rifle. You'll become better at using your reticle, spotting your own rounds, reading wind, etc,etc
just my opinion, not trying to sound all expert and shit.
Especially since you're only shooting at 300... still pretty flat and fast at that range.
So next time...no printouts, no high speed ballistic computers, just you shooting at the 300, first round. Gotta push yourself if you feel like you're cheating, lol
$.02
-edit
as far as the measurement stuff-
ok, your scope is mil mil.
.1 mil runs about 1 cm at 100m, so..
.1 mil at 500m is about 5 cm
2.54 cm in an inch (which just so happens to be about 1 MOA at 100yds), so your .5 inch group translates to about .13 mil at 100m.
what is a .13 mil group at 600m? 6 x 1.3 ~ 7.8 cm group at 600m
this thread made me chuckle
good times.
hey flemgunner, try shooting groups of 5 or 7 and see how long you can maintain that 1/2 MOA group at 300 or so.
hey man, just an observation, but I think you would get a lot more out of your training if you shit can the printout ballistic stuff and just get more familiar with the scope/rifle. You'll become better at using your reticle, spotting your own rounds, reading wind, etc,etc
just my opinion, not trying to sound all expert and shit.
Especially since you're only shooting at 300... still pretty flat and fast at that range.
So next time...no printouts, no high speed ballistic computers, just you shooting at the 300, first round. Gotta push yourself if you feel like you're cheating, lol
$.02
-edit
as far as the measurement stuff-
ok, your scope is mil mil.
.1 mil runs about 1 cm at 100m, so..
.1 mil at 500m is about 5 cm
2.54 cm in an inch (which just so happens to be about 1 MOA at 100yds), so your .5 inch group translates to about .13 mil at 100m.
what is a .13 mil group at 600m? 6 x 1.3 ~ 7.8 cm group at 600m
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
Bloviation: is a style of empty, pompous, political speech which originated in Ohio and was used by US President, Warren G. Harding who described it as "the art of speaking for as long as the occasion warrants, and saying nothing".[1] The verb to bloviate is the act of creating bloviation. To orate windly.
To the OP,
What your missing is alot. Going into detail will serve no use to you as you are not familiar with the terminology even at this point. Stop shooting groups and run a dot drill. Shoot off a pack rather than a bipod and dont use a rear bag if you need a challenge. Try positional shooting. Use a sling (correctly) to shoot seated and prone.
Bloviation: is a style of empty, pompous, political speech which originated in Ohio and was used by US President, Warren G. Harding who described it as "the art of speaking for as long as the occasion warrants, and saying nothing".[1] The verb to bloviate is the act of creating bloviation. To orate windly.
To the OP,
What your missing is alot. Going into detail will serve no use to you as you are not familiar with the terminology even at this point. Stop shooting groups and run a dot drill. Shoot off a pack rather than a bipod and dont use a rear bag if you need a challenge. Try positional shooting. Use a sling (correctly) to shoot seated and prone.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flemgunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok,well I can enter the numbers into the online ballistic thing, print that out and take my rifle and nail the hell out of stuff out to 300yds (longest range around). I understand all that. Heres the deal though. I look at my grouping and I have 3 nice holes in a 1/2" spot at 100 yds how does that translate to mils? My scope is mil/mil. In short Im just missing something but to be honest Im not sure what so dont know where to look. Any ideas? </div></div>
I understand where you're coming from. I'm kinda in the same boat. I know where I want to go just can't figure out how to get there. My range is limited to 100 yards at present so I built a little 22 lr trainer. I am practicing reading the wind and calculating tragectory based on the ballistics of a 22.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flemgunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok,well I can enter the numbers into the online ballistic thing, print that out and take my rifle and nail the hell out of stuff out to 300yds (longest range around). I understand all that. Heres the deal though. I look at my grouping and I have 3 nice holes in a 1/2" spot at 100 yds how does that translate to mils? My scope is mil/mil. In short Im just missing something but to be honest Im not sure what so dont know where to look. Any ideas? </div></div>
I understand where you're coming from. I'm kinda in the same boat. I know where I want to go just can't figure out how to get there. My range is limited to 100 yards at present so I built a little 22 lr trainer. I am practicing reading the wind and calculating tragectory based on the ballistics of a 22.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call a Mil group too big.
Group size is not a goal, but rather a fleeting frame of reference about a person and their equipment's performance on a given day. All things change, and this is usually part of that.
I think more in terms of how many things I aim at and how many of those I actually hit effectively. In that context, group size has less meaning for me.
Greg </div></div>
agree 110%
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call a Mil group too big.
Group size is not a goal, but rather a fleeting frame of reference about a person and their equipment's performance on a given day. All things change, and this is usually part of that.
I think more in terms of how many things I aim at and how many of those I actually hit effectively. In that context, group size has less meaning for me.
Greg </div></div>
agree 110%
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
Stuck @ 300? Shoot only on the nastiest, windy days you can. In the winter I mostly shoot at a nearby range because it's quick to get to and on bad weather days it's usually all mine.
Stuck @ 300? Shoot only on the nastiest, windy days you can. In the winter I mostly shoot at a nearby range because it's quick to get to and on bad weather days it's usually all mine.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
I would agree on the dot drills for you! if you can hit all those dots on the snipershide dot drill target at 100 and 200 yards I will have you come shoot mine from now on!
200 yard do drill would be super impressive!
I would agree on the dot drills for you! if you can hit all those dots on the snipershide dot drill target at 100 and 200 yards I will have you come shoot mine from now on!
200 yard do drill would be super impressive!
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
I'm not sure what the OP wants to learn; but, the whole point to grouping is to zero the rifle. And, since most of us cannot shoot to zero dispersion, trangulation gives us an idea for what sight adustments are necessary to hit where aimed. Of course, you need to be able to produce a group to get a zero. And since It appears the OP can do this, I don't understand his problem.
I'm not sure what the OP wants to learn; but, the whole point to grouping is to zero the rifle. And, since most of us cannot shoot to zero dispersion, trangulation gives us an idea for what sight adustments are necessary to hit where aimed. Of course, you need to be able to produce a group to get a zero. And since It appears the OP can do this, I don't understand his problem.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
First of all to be clear I don't know my ass from a ho,e in the ground when it comes to long range shooting (or even "precision rifle" So as a complete noob I think I understand the OP's question. Basically he's saying, "I am getting what sounds like a fairly acceptable group by punching some numbers in my ballistic calculator and looking at charts etc.and applying good fundamentals as I know them. However, I KNOW that long range shooting has to be harder than this as there is a whole website filled with page upon page of information put out by people who are way more experienced than I. Therefore, while I am getting results I feel like it's fairly easy and I know it's not. Why isn't this harder?
Does that about sum it up?
First of all to be clear I don't know my ass from a ho,e in the ground when it comes to long range shooting (or even "precision rifle" So as a complete noob I think I understand the OP's question. Basically he's saying, "I am getting what sounds like a fairly acceptable group by punching some numbers in my ballistic calculator and looking at charts etc.and applying good fundamentals as I know them. However, I KNOW that long range shooting has to be harder than this as there is a whole website filled with page upon page of information put out by people who are way more experienced than I. Therefore, while I am getting results I feel like it's fairly easy and I know it's not. Why isn't this harder?
Does that about sum it up?
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
There's a lot to learn on this site. For instance, I intend on using my new word "Bloviation" three times today in a sentence during conversation. And like the OP shooter at 100 yards, I'm naturally good at it I've discovered....
There's a lot to learn on this site. For instance, I intend on using my new word "Bloviation" three times today in a sentence during conversation. And like the OP shooter at 100 yards, I'm naturally good at it I've discovered....
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes).
A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes).
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes).</div></div>
Wow.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes).</div></div>
Wow.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes). </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes). </div></div>
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes).</div></div>
It's not minute of accuracy, it's minute of angle, where 1 MOA equals 1/60th of 1 degree. There are 360 degrees in a cricle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A ballistics calculator is just calculating the amount of drift and drop at a given distance, muzzle velocity, etc. The reason mil/moa is used is because by 'clicking' the scope, you're changing the interior optics to shift the focus of the scope to compensate for windage and elevation. It's the most straightforward solution to changing optics for environmental conditions, so that's why it's used. MOA just means minute of accuracy, or 1 minute of arc (where a full circle is 360 degrees, and each degree comprises of 60 minutes).</div></div>
It's not minute of accuracy, it's minute of angle, where 1 MOA equals 1/60th of 1 degree. There are 360 degrees in a cricle.
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
LMAO hahah
LMAO hahah
Re: I kinda feel like Im cheating
that is funny!
that is funny!
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