Inconsistent Full Length Resizing

[Fire4EffectCA]

I have been reloading 308 Win and 6.5mm Creedmoor and now started reloading 223 Rem. I have never loaded 223 Rem before and have encountered inconsistent full length resizing when I was setting up and adjusting the full length resizing die.

EQUIPMENT

• Forester Co-Ax Press
• Redding Type S Bushing Style Full Length Die
• Once Fired Winchester 223 Rem Cases (Note: Fired from my rifles)

I have six rifles chambered in 5.56mm with varying headspace so I want to return the cases to 1.4636” (0 on my RCBS Precision Mic).

While adjusting the Redding FL die I found I had to cam-over a small amount to achieve 0 on my RCBS Precision Mic. When I checked more cases I found I was getting readings from -1 to +2.5. That’s a variance of 0.0035”.

I have a brand new set of Dillon carbide 223 Rem dies I purchased years ago and have never used. I decided to install these in the Co-Ax press to compare results with the Redding FL resizing die. Being carbide the Dillon dies are designed to not contact the shell holder and be able to full length resize a fired case. The results were:

Redding FL Die (20 cases resized): Maximum 0.005” variance. Most were from +1 to -1, which is 0.002” variance.

Dillon Carbide FL Die (20 cases resized): Maximum 0.0005” variance. That's 1/10 of the Redding FL Die variance. Very impressive.

I am thinking cam-over of the Forester press is creating the inconsistent resizing results and the fix would be to return the FL resizing die to Redding to remove 0.005” from the base of the die so I don’t need to Cam-over. Has anyone else experienced inconsistent full length resizing with cam-over?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Which shell holder is in the press? I had all kinds of inconsistencies with the CoAx auto shell holders for certain cartridges and certain types of operations. Cam Over was one and seating WSM with the S jaws was the other. The jaws flex so if you cam over a lot you may want to consider a shell holder adaptor plate. https://www.forsterproducts.com/product/shell-holder-adapter-plate-for-co-ax-press/

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

Which shell holder is in the press? I had all kinds of inconsistencies with the CoAx auto shell holders for certain cartridges and certain types of operations. Cam Over was one and seating WSM with the S jaws was the other. The jaws flex so if you cam over a lot you may want to consider a shell holder adaptor plate. https://www.forsterproducts.com/product/shell-holder-adapter-plate-for-co-ax-press/

I have the auto shell holder installed.

I did look for ejector extrusions on the case head and minor dents on the neck that could throw the RCBS Precision Mic off, but could not find any.

As an experiment I looked for unresized cases that measured +5 with the RCBS Precision Mic and set the Redding FL die to just before the die contacted the shell plate holder. This setup resized the cases to +3 on the RCBS Precision Mic and the resized cases were very consistent. This would be sufficient for most of my rifles, but the LMT LM8MRP has a tight chamber that requires me to go to 0 on the RCBS Precision Mic.

It sure seems to me the best course of action is to have Redding remove material from the bottom of the die so I can’t cam-over.

 

[Steel head]

Two things that I see commonly causes this.
1-inconsistent lube.
2-inconsistent brass hardness, range brass is famous for this as it adds various lengths into the equation, for pew pew loads it’s a non issue as long as it feeds.

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

Two things that I see commonly causes this.
1-inconsistent lube.
2-inconsistent brass hardness, range brass is famous for this as it adds various lengths into the equation, for pew pew loads it’s a non issue as long as it feeds.

I don't use range brass and I consistently apply Imperial Sizing Die Wax. The results with the Dillon carbide die indicates the problem is with the press cam-over.

 

[Steel head]

I don't use range brass and I consistently apply Imperial Sizing Die Wax. The results with the Dillon carbide die indicates the problem is with the press cam-over.

So all cases are same brand, fired from same chamber and annealed?

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

So all cases are same brand, fired from same chamber and annealed?

All cases are commercial Winchester from the same production lot once fired from several of my AR rifles. The results with the Dillon FL resizing die confirms the items you listed are not the issue.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I have the auto shell holder installed.

I did look for ejector extrusions on the case head and minor dents on the neck that could throw the RCBS Precision Mic off, but could not find any.

As an experiment I looked for unresized cases that measured +5 with the RCBS Precision Mic and set the Redding FL die to just before the die contacted the shell plate holder. This setup resized the cases to +3 on the RCBS Precision Mic and the resized cases were very consistent. This would be sufficient for most of my rifles, but the LMT LM8MRP has a tight chamber that requires me to go to 0 on the RCBS Precision Mic.

It sure seems to me the best course of action is to have Redding remove material from the bottom of the die so I can’t cam-over.

Dies are made to work in most of the presses on the market. If you remove the chamfer at the base of the die some presses will struggle feeding the case into the die or shave brass. If you simply shorten the die, cases fired from larger chambers won't be sized enough at the case web. If you don't want to change the shell plate you may have better luck with different dies such as Forster.

I bought a CoAx, in part, because of the automatic jaws. What I quickly realized is that for some cases and some type of operations they are a hindrance. There are some cartridges where the auto jaws are brilliant so if you're loading one of them you're going to be very happy. If you're loading a cartridge that doesn't play well with the jaws you're probably going to ruin brass or waste your time. I converted my press to universal shell holders.

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

Dies are made to work in most of the presses on the market. If you remove the chamfer at the base of the die some presses will struggle feeding the case into the die or shave brass. If you simply shorten the die, cases fired from larger chambers won't be sized enough at the case web. If you don't want to change the shell plate you may have better luck with different dies such as Forster.

I bought a CoAx, in part, because of the automatic jaws. What I quickly realized is that for some cases and some type of operations they are a hindrance. There are some cartridges where the auto jaws are brilliant so if you're loading one of them you're going to be very happy. If you're loading a cartridge that doesn't play well with the jaws you're probably going to ruin brass or waste your time. I converted my press to universal shell holders.

Thanks so much. Your comments have been very helpful. I don't know if removing .004 to .005 inch of material will impact the bevel to make a difference. I will talk with Forester and Redding tomorrow about this issue. It is good to know a universal shell holder is an option.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Have you tried running the longer ones again?

Have you measured them before and after? I find that for some reason cases that start longer can come out longer. Like the spring back is greater. I'll set those aside and adjust the die to run them again. It may be that your 6 rifles chambers vary enough to create a varying fired sizes.

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

Have you tried running the longer ones again?

Have you measured them before and after? I find that for some reason cases that start longer can come out longer. Like the spring back is greater. I'll set those aside and adjust the die to run them again. It may be that your 6 rifles chambers vary enough to create a varying fired sizes.

The results with the Dillon FL carbide dies disproves that.

 

[1moaoff]

You can have springboard with the body also. Just like neck tension. Each chamber and a load can change the brass. With that many rifles I think thats actually pretty good. This is a game of variables does, press, brass, chambers etc.

Try sorting your brass by gun and see if that helps.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

The results with the Dillon FL carbide dies disproves that.

Well it looks like you got this all figured out. GL

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

I just did another experiment and moved the Redding FL resizing die to my Dillon RL 550 press. I was able to achieve 0 (1.4636") without having to cam-over. I resized 10 once fired cases from the same Winchester 223 lot and the resized cases were just as consistent as I was able to achieve with the Dillon carbide FL resizing die on the Forester Co-Ax press. The problem is obviously with the flexing of the auto shell holder with cam-over on the Forester Co-Ax press.

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

You can have springboard with the body also. Just like neck tension. Each chamber and a load can change the brass. With that many rifles I think thats actually pretty good. This is a game of variables does, press, brass, chambers etc.

Try sorting your brass by gun and see if that helps.

Thanks. I understand what you are saying with springback, but I thought a sampling of 20 cases would cover the range. When I have time I will go through 100 cases and pull out an equal number of once fired cases that are +2 and +5 and run them through the Dillon resizing die on the Forester Co-Ax press and compare consistency.

I no longer have traceability on the brass with respect to which brass came from which rifles. I recently sorted all the brass by manufacturer and lot for cleaning. The brass I have accumulated comes from many years of shooting. I do keep track of the number of rounds fired from each rifle and the headspace measurement of the fired brass. It will be easier to keep track of which brass was fired from which rifle going forward.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I just did another experiment and moved the Redding FL resizing die to my Dillon RL 550 press. I was able to achieve 0 (1.4636") without having to cam-over. I resized 10 once fired cases from the same Winchester 223 lot and the resized cases were just as consistent as I was able to achieve with the Dillon carbide FL resizing die on the Forester Co-Ax press. The problem is obviously with the flexing of the auto shell holder with cam-over on the Forester Co-Ax press.

I did the same, I have four different presses and isolated it to the jaws very quickly. If you're reloading PPC parent cartridges like 6.5G/ARC, 7.62x39, 6PPC the automatic jaws are magical. 6.5PRC, SAUM, 223Rem, etc with the S jaws and anything camming over are a mess. I also got tired of swapping between the S and L/S jaws. I eventually went to the standard shell holders, the trade off is long cartridges are a tight fit.

 

[Yondering]

The results with the Dillon FL carbide dies disproves that.

No, it doesn't. You're placing way too much faith in these carbide dies. Try the same die with adequate lube (not Imperial as you've been doing, use something slicker or more of it). If you still have a lot of variation, it's most likely due to different brass hardness. That's the only thing that will make the press cam-over inconsistent.

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

I did the same, I have four different presses and isolated it to the jaws very quickly. If you're reloading PPC parent cartridges like 6.5G/ARC, 7.62x39, 6PPC the automatic jaws are magical. 6.5PRC, SAUM, 223Rem, etc with the S jaws and anything camming over are a mess. I also got tired of swapping between the S and L/S jaws. I eventually went to the standard shell holders, the trade off is long cartridges are a tight fit.

You are the only one that appreciates what is happening with the auto shell holder. I never should have mentioned that the Dillon resizing is carbide. What others do not understand is you have to lubricate the cases resized in a FL rifle carbide resizing die the same as steel resizing dies. This is not a lubrication issue. What is significant is that the Dillon 223 carbide resizing die does not have to touch the auto shell holder to properly resize the case. If fact, it can resize the case to 0 (1.4636”) a full turn out from touching the case. If you turn the Dillon 223 carbide die down just before it touches the shell holder it will seriously undersize a case below 0 (1.4636”).

What I have been able to show is that the combination of the Redding FL resizing die with the Forester Co-Ax press will consistently resize cases as long as you don’t cam-over. I can consistently resize cases to +3 (1.4639”) with out resorting to cam-over. If I try resizing to obtain 0 (1.4636”), I get inconsistent resizing.

If I install the Dillon 223 carbide die on the Forester Co-Ax press I have no problem setting the die so it resizes to 0 (1.4636”) without having to cam-over.

If I install the Redding FL resizing die on my Dillon RL 550 press I can achieve 0 (1.4636") without having to cam-over and obtain consistent resizing.

Someone on another board suggested I resize the cases twice with the Redding die and Forester press while turning the case 180˚ between passes. I find this significantly improves the consistency, but I am concerned about overworking the brass with the expander ball. This is the method this person uses with the Forester press, but he also anneals the neck each time he reloads.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I probably wouldn’t use junk brass to prove or disprove anything.....

Also, if you’re using calipers, you’re not getting any measurements to .0005 reliably.

 

[Fire4EffectCA]

Thank you to everyone who has provided input. I am not going to respond individually, but instead provide a recap of what I am experiencing.

I purchased a Redding 223 full length Type S resizing die and I am using it with my Forester Co-Ax press. Upon initial setup I have been having a difficult time resizing cases to 1.4636”. I get one case resized to 1.4636” then the next one is 1.4656” and the next one is 1.4626”. I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax and Imperial Application media with Dry Neck Lube and you carbide expander ball. The cases resize effortlessly. NOTE: I have to cam-over to achieve 1.4636”. All the brass is commercial Winchester 223 Rem from the same lot and fired once from different AR rifles that I own.

I have a new Dillon 223 resizing die I have never used and decided to see how it performed with the Forester Co-Ax press. I found I was able to consistently resize cases to 1.4636” without resorting to cam-over.

Next I installed the Redding 223 Rem resizing die on my Dillon 550 press and found I was able to consistently resize cases to 1.4636” without resorting to cam-over.

I suspected the auto shell holder on the Forester press might be the issue (flexing under cam-over) and I reinstalled the Redding 223 Rem resizing die in the Forester Co-Ax press to retest. I set aside once fired cases that measured +5 on my RCBS Precision Mic and tried resizing them and found I was able to obtain consistent resizing until I tried to go lower than +3 on the RCBS Precision Mic. I noticed that any attempt to resize lower than +3 required the press to cam-over.

What I have been able to show is that the combination of the Redding FL resizing die with the Forester Co-Ax press will consistently resize cases as long as I don’t cam-over. I can consistently resize cases to +3 (1.4666”) without resorting to cam-over. If I try resizing to obtain 0 (1.4636”), I get inconsistent resizing.

I did inquire on the Internet and another reloader responded that he had experienced the same issue with 223 Rem resizing dies and the Forester Co-Ax press and traced the problem to the press auto shell holder when cam-over is applied. I am hoping removing .005” from the base of the Redding resizing die will eliminate cam-over and result in consistent resizing. I am going to send my die along with fires cases for Redding engineers to evaluate.

In the meantime, a reloader on another thread I started said he gets consistent resizing with his Forester Co-Ax and a 223 Rem resizing die that cams-over if he resizes the case twice without the expander button. He rotates the case 180˚ between passes and then in a separate operation he runs the resized cases through the expander ball. I tried that this morning with 50 once fired Winchester cases and I am obtaining resized brass that is consistently within 0.001”. This will be my fallback position if removing 0.005” of material from the base of the Redding resizing die is not an option.