Interest in a more vertical grip for J allen?

Baron23

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    Tagging a few folks who expressed some initial interest in the other thread:

    @Dustyplyr @Tyler Kemp @kthomas @samb300 @Dthomas3523

    If you are reading this, chances are you own a J Allen chassis and have found that the existing OG grip is a bit too far from the trigger shoe and perhaps angles your shooting hand downward just a little so that your trigger pull can tend to be up and to the back a bit rather than straight back.

    In this thread, there was some interest expressed in an aftermarket grip skin (that is, one that replaces the pliable original grip cover) with a more vertical front strap.

    https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/vertical-grip-modification-to-j-allen.6937604/

    With a bit of initial confusion, it seemed like we needed to shelve this idea as MDT (who bought J Allen’s design/etc) expressed that they indeed will be offering a small variety of grip configurations when they reissue their version of this chassis.

    The confusion was that it turned out on further discussion that MDT’s grips will not be backward compatible to the original J Allen sold chassis. That is, MDT is changing the design in some areas for better producibility and cost control. If you read through the post linked above, you can see where @MDT_Josh explains why they are making a change and it’s very understandable.

    So, back to an aftermarket grip skin and I have been in contact with @Tyler Kemp, owner of MK Machining, who expressed interest in doing a 3d printed version with a more vertical front strap that will be compatible with OG J Allen chassis. Tyler feels that this can be easily done (well, easily if you have this type of expertise) in printed nylon of a type (11, I think he said) that will be strong enough to support captive fasteners for bolting it onto the chassis but still be pliable enough to get it over the underlying aluminum grip and sort of snap into place.

    I have an empty chassis that I have agreed to send to Tyler for scanning and prototyping.

    Please don’t laugh at my poor attempt at art work (I can’t even draw stick men haha), but this is kind of the idea

    Current grip configuration
    1611019417427.png

    Rough idea of what we are talking about…very rough haha
    1611019451082.png

    There is, of course, going to be some non-recurring design costs and before we launch into this, we felt that it would be prudent to determine a rough level of interest and solicit owner’s views on the configuration that they would prefer.

    So, if you have any interest, please reply below and answer the following few questions. Of course, we are very open to any other views and constructive suggestions that you wish to toss into the hat.

    • Price notwithstanding, would you like to buy something like this and if so, how many?
    • Would you be willing to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $75-$100 for it?
      • This is NOT a quoted price and is just a VERY rough guesstimate for the sole purpose of gauging approximate interest.
    • What configuration would you like:
      • Completely vertical front strap
      • Something a bit less that fully vertical
      • Something that extends forward even more than just going straight down vertically from the top of the existing grip skin?
      • Feel free to take the OG grip pic above and mod it to show what you would like…I did it in PowerPoint but anything will do like Paint or even hand drawn
    • Palm swell –
      • Are you happy with the existing palm swell?
      • If not, would you want more or less swell?
    • Texture – this will NOT be rubberized material like the OG skin, but it can be textured
      • Do you prefer a smooth finish
      • Do you prefer a bit of a pebbled finish
      • Any other finish/texture preference
    I’m hoping that we can make this a go. I have tried to use some other products to build up the front of the grip with workable but not optimal results. For those of us who can’t palm a basketball, I think this will really help improve the ergonomics of the chassis.
     

    Dustyplyr

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    This would be how I would prefer it myself though anywhere in between this and your drawing would be a vast improvement. The only caveat with being a far forward as mine would be that there would need to be a small notch to access the rear action screw. As far as texture goes id like some sort of texture for some grip during wet times but I'm not too concerned with what that is. Palm swell I actually like the width of the factory one though it would need to be moved forward moving the grip forward.. I would be down to buy 1 for sure and probably 2. This is probably the most needed improvement that the Jae needs and I am for sure excited and hope that this bears fruit.2D4A0D58-8512-4D49-9CDB-5BDBFDCD10DB.jpeg
     
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    Baron23

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    This would be how I would prefer it myself though anywhere in between this and your drawing would be a vast improvement.
    Uh...is something missing....like the "this" ??? 😅

    Did you intend to include a picture or drawing?
     

    Baron23

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    Now this kind of brings up an interesting point....most J Allens incl mine have the palm shelf as shown in my pics above. But not all.

    So, how do you guys think we should handle this...one version for chassis with palm shelves and bring it down to blend in with the front of the shelf and one that doesn't.

    If we just come down to the bottom of the current grip skin and bring the front strap forward, there will be a bit of a gap between the bottom of the new grip and the palm shelf?

    Not trying to design it here...I will leave that to Tyler.

    Just wondering how people think we should accommodate the palm shelf or its absence.

    P.S. - edited to call the palm shelf by its proper name.
     
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    Dustyplyr

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    Now this kind of brings up an interesting point....most J Allens incl mine have the grip cap as shown in my pics above. But not all.

    So, how do you guys think we should handle this...one version for chassis with grip caps and bring it down to blend in with the front of the cap and one that doesn't.

    If we just come down to the bottom of the current grip skin and bring the front strap forward, there will be a bit of a gap between the bottom of the new grip and the grip cap?

    Not trying to design it here...I will leave that to Tyler.

    Just wondering how people think we should accommodate grip caps and no grip cap.
    Or what about throwing one more alternative in there. Since we are replacing the grip on this theory why not just integrate the bottom palm shelf into the new grip. By removing the existing one for ones like yours and mine it would allow the new grip to have 2 more attachment points via the screws holding it in currently. Whether guys choose to use the palm shelf or not the screw holes are still there unless I'm mistaken.
    So this would be a seamless 1 peice vs the 2 it currently is.
     
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    Baron23

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    Are you calling the palm shelf a grip cap?
    Yeah, I guess that's sort of like cheek piece vs comb.

    I would call it a grip cap but I couldn't remember the J Allen term and, yes...you are absolutely correct...its a palm shelf... and thanks for reminding me.
     

    Baron23

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    Or what about throwing one more alternative in there. Since we are replacing the grip on this theory why not just integrate the bottom palm shelf into the new grip. By removing the existing one for ones like yours and mine it would allow the new grip to have 2 more attachment points via the screws holding it in currently. Whether guys choose to use the palm shelf or not the screw holes are still there unless I'm mistaken.
    Ah, probably make it too stiff to flex and pull over the underlying chassis grip? Have you taken your grip skin off yet....its illuminating.

    I think there is good reason they are separate.
     

    Tokay444

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    I personally like my palm shelf. If an extended shelf was made available to accompany the vertical grip, it might make manufacturing easier by only only needing make one grip style.
     

    Baron23

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    I personally like my palm shelf. If an extended shelf was made available to accompany the vertical grip, it might make manufacturing easier by only only needing make one grip style.
    Great idea...thanks. I kind of like it too.
     

    Dustyplyr

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    Ah, probably make it too stiff to flex and pull over the underlying chassis grip? Have you taken your grip skin off yet....its illuminating.

    I think there is good reason they are separate.
    I would say you appear to very right. I guess I had never tried to fully remove the grip.
     
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    Tyler Kemp

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    Hello everyone, yes we can do this to an "OEM" level quality, including texture. I believe I've got a good idea of how the final product needs to be ergonomically, excited to get a chassis in hand and knock it out.
     

    kthomas

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    Tagging a few folks who expressed some initial interest in the other thread:

    @Dustyplyr @Tyler Kemp @kthomas @samb300 @Dthomas3523

    If you are reading this, chances are you own a J Allen chassis and have found that the existing OG grip is a bit too far from the trigger shoe and perhaps angles your shooting hand downward just a little so that your trigger pull can tend to be up and to the back a bit rather than straight back.

    In this thread, there was some interest expressed in an aftermarket grip skin (that is, one that replaces the pliable original grip cover) with a more vertical front strap.

    https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/vertical-grip-modification-to-j-allen.6937604/

    With a bit of initial confusion, it seemed like we needed to shelve this idea as MDT (who bought J Allen’s design/etc) expressed that they indeed will be offering a small variety of grip configurations when they reissue their version of this chassis.

    The confusion was that it turned out on further discussion that MDT’s grips will not be backward compatible to the original J Allen sold chassis. That is, MDT is changing the design in some areas for better producibility and cost control. If you read through the post linked above, you can see where @MDT_Josh explains why they are making a change and it’s very understandable.

    So, back to an aftermarket grip skin and I have been in contact with @Tyler Kemp, owner of MK Machining, who expressed interest in doing a 3d printed version with a more vertical front strap that will be compatible with OG J Allen chassis. Tyler feels that this can be easily done (well, easily if you have this type of expertise) in printed nylon of a type (11, I think he said) that will be strong enough to support captive fasteners for bolting it onto the chassis but still be pliable enough to get it over the underlying aluminum grip and sort of snap into place.

    I have an empty chassis that I have agreed to send to Tyler for scanning and prototyping.

    Please don’t laugh at my poor attempt at art work (I can’t even draw stick men haha), but this is kind of the idea

    Current grip configuration
    View attachment 7531526

    Rough idea of what we are talking about…very rough haha
    View attachment 7531528

    There is, of course, going to be some non-recurring design costs and before we launch into this, we felt that it would be prudent to determine a rough level of interest and solicit owner’s views on the configuration that they would prefer.

    So, if you have any interest, please reply below and answer the following few questions. Of course, we are very open to any other views and constructive suggestions that you wish to toss into the hat.

    • Price notwithstanding, would you like to buy something like this and if so, how many?
    • Would you be willing to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $75-$100 for it?
      • This is NOT a quoted price and is just a VERY rough guesstimate for the sole purpose of gauging approximate interest.
    • What configuration would you like:
      • Completely vertical front strap
      • Something a bit less that fully vertical
      • Something that extends forward even more than just going straight down vertically from the top of the existing grip skin?
      • Feel free to take the OG grip pic above and mod it to show what you would like…I did it in PowerPoint but anything will do like Paint or even hand drawn
    • Palm swell –
      • Are you happy with the existing palm swell?
      • If not, would you want more or less swell?
    • Texture – this will NOT be rubberized material like the OG skin, but it can be textured
      • Do you prefer a smooth finish
      • Do you prefer a bit of a pebbled finish
      • Any other finish/texture preference
    I’m hoping that we can make this a go. I have tried to use some other products to build up the front of the grip with workable but not optimal results. For those of us who can’t palm a basketball, I think this will really help improve the ergonomics of the chassis.

    I would be down.

    If it works out, I have x2 JAE chassis, so I would buy that many grips.

    Slightly less then vertical would be favorable for me. Perhaps by a few degrees. I really like the KRG Bravo grip angle, for reference.

    I would like the grip to be textured, and soft if possible. I do love the softness and texture of the original grip, so I would personally really like to replicate that.

    $75-100 is reasonable for a good quality grip replacement.
     

    cwinner

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    I'm definitely in for a couple depending on how they turn out..... I'm ok with as close to 90* as you can get and prefer the palm shelf as well but it's not a requirement. My preference would be as soft a material as possible to match the OEM.

    i never chimed in on the linked thread but watched it And hoped something developed...I'll be watching this one and interested in what Tyler comes up with and $75-$100 would be no problem for me if they are high quality.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    I’m no longer interested in this project. I’ll wait and see what mdt comes up with.

    But, as pointed out, you’ll need the grip to come all the way to the trigger guard, or pretty close.....to fix the issue with the now legacy chassis.
     
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    Baron23

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    What if you had a....detachable palm rest?
    Not sure I understand, but then again I'm easily confused! haha

    The OG palm rest is a separate part and can be detached separately from the grip skin. It’s got two screws on the bottom holding it on.

    I assumed that if we needed A new palm rest to properly blend w the revised grip, that it would be the same, no?

    I guess I never anticipated the palm shelf being combined with the grip skin even being a consideration.

    Cheers
     
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    Tyler Kemp

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    Once I get the chassis in I'll be able to check out the palm shelf more. It could be made to attach directly to the chassis, or attach to the new grip panel. My opinion is making it modular offers the option of running with or without! I'm actually working on a chassis grip that integrates this......cats outta the bag.
     

    Tokay444

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    The extended palm shelf should attach to both, the chassis and the grip.
     

    Baron23

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    Once I get the chassis in I'll be able to check out the palm shelf more. It could be made to attach directly to the chassis, or attach to the new grip panel. My opinion is making it modular offers the option of running with or without!
    Agree completely about getting you the chassis and let you see and propose the best approach. I'm personally in favor of separate, modular, parts if that works out well.

    I'll PM you tonight about shipping the chassis to you.

    The extended palm shelf should attach to both, the chassis and the grip.
    Willing to expand on your thinking a bit more on this....why attach to the grip at all. The OG one does not and as thick and sturdy as it is, it seems like mounting using the two screws holding it on to the bottom of the grip are very strong.

    Cheers
     

    Tokay444

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    The OG grip doesn’t extend nearly as far as this will need to from the chassis. Don’t bolt the extended palm shelf to the grip and it’ll be a diving board until it snaps off.
     

    Tyler Kemp

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    Hello all, looking for input here.

    I've been playing with the palm swell here and got it where I like it.

    T-Slot for interchangeable thumb rests (or should it just be built in?)

    I don't think a palm shelf is necessary, but my thought is make it where a palm shelf can slide in and be bolted on if desired.

    Here are a few views, the hex pattern is going to cut material usage some. Other side is identical, but mirrored.

    j allen insid.JPG

    j allen outside.JPG

    j allen front.JPG
     

    TacticalDillhole

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    Hello all, looking for input here.

    I've been playing with the palm swell here and got it where I like it.

    T-Slot for interchangeable thumb rests (or should it just be built in?)

    I don't think a palm shelf is necessary, but my thought is make it where a palm shelf can slide in and be bolted on if desired.

    Here are a few views, the hex pattern is going to cut material usage some. Other side is identical, but mirrored.

    View attachment 7566754

    View attachment 7566755

    View attachment 7566756
    Interchangeable thumb rest for me. Everyone has different hands. I like the idea of a removable shelf.
     

    Baron23

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    Ok, I will be the voice of contrarianism.

    1. If you include a thumb rest, IMO it should be solid with the grip half. Removeable parts are an invitation to broken interfaces, parts wearing and coming loose, parts falling off and being lost. Frankly, I'm a smallish size guy and do not have large hands and I'm comfortable with the thumb rest that's provided at the top of the chassis itself. Not sure why we would need another thumb rest and in particular why we would want to add more seperate parts to what is supposed to be a solid feeling grip. KISS is it. Simple, solid, functional, robust and durable....just my view.

    2. I agree that a palm rest should be made available for those who want it (which would include me). Again, smallish hands but I rather like the palm rest and it provides a finished look to the grip. And I'm fine with it being a separate part in this case, as it is with the OG grip, because it is seperately bolted to the chassis. I have looked at a LOT of JAE chassis while shopping for one (and now have three...sigh! LOL) and I do believe that the fact that you rarely see a JAE without the palm rest is indicative of the great majority of people's desires. Please do make one available.

    3. Honeycomb - not sure i understand what you are doing here. Is the honeycomb surface to be on the outside (that's how it looks to me) in lieu of a texture? I can't tell from the image how deep the honeycombs are...in some places it looks shallow and some places deep...probably just an artifact of the rendering. But what exactly are you aiming for here? Personally, I would be quite happy with a solid grip with a pebbled texture.

    Great work and it looks like this is coming along nicely. Any idea how long to first article? And any thought about putting out a prototype or few for OT&E field testing (as in shooting the gun with it on) before launching into production?

    Looking forward to trying this out on my JAE gun. I'm sure I'll love it.

    Cheers
     

    TacticalDillhole

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    Ok, I will be the voice of contrarianism.

    1. If you include a thumb rest, IMO it should be solid with the grip half. Removeable parts are an invitation to broken interfaces, parts wearing and coming loose, parts falling off and being lost. Frankly, I'm a smallish size guy and do not have large hands and I'm comfortable with the thumb rest that's provided at the top of the chassis itself. Not sure why we would need another thumb rest and in particular why we would want to add more seperate parts to what is supposed to be a solid feeling grip. KISS is it. Simple, solid, functional, robust and durable....just my view.

    2. I agree that a palm rest should be made available for those who want it (which would include me). Again, smallish hands but I rather like the palm rest and it provides a finished look to the grip. And I'm fine with it being a separate part in this case, as it is with the OG grip, because it is seperately bolted to the chassis. I have looked at a LOT of JAE chassis while shopping for one (and now have three...sigh! LOL) and I do believe that the fact that you rarely see a JAE without the palm rest is indicative of the great majority of people's desires. Please do make one available.

    3. Honeycomb - not sure i understand what you are doing here. Is the honeycomb surface to be on the outside (that's how it looks to me) in lieu of a texture? I can't tell from the image how deep the honeycombs are...in some places it looks shallow and some places deep...probably just an artifact of the rendering. But what exactly are you aiming for here? Personally, I would be quite happy with a solid grip with a pebbled texture.

    Great work and it looks like this is coming along nicely. Any idea how long to first article? And any thought about putting out a prototype or few for OT&E field testing (as in shooting the gun with it on) before launching into production?

    Looking forward to trying this out on my JAE gun. I'm sure I'll love it.

    Cheers
    Honeycomb is probably just interior to save material and weight then it will be solid on outside. Not uncommon in 3D printing
     

    Baron23

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    Honeycomb is probably just interior to save material and weight then it will be solid on outside. Not uncommon in 3D printing
    Absolutely what I thought and that would be fine....but look closely at the pics above....the 2nd pic is def the outside face so....we'll see what Tyler comes back with.

    But agree completely....inside to reduce material and maybe even give it some added strength...all for it. Outside, I guess I would prefer a simple pebbled texture.

    Cheers
     

    TacticalDillhole

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    Absolutely what I thought and that would be fine....but look closely at the pics above....the 2nd pic is def the outside face so....we'll see what Tyler comes back with.

    But agree completely....inside to reduce material and maybe even give it some added strength...all for it. Outside, I guess I would prefer a simple pebbled texture.

    Cheers
    Same here.
     

    Tyler Kemp

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    Hello everyone!

    I'm wanting to know what texture you guys are after......aside from the stock "pebbly" texture. This is unfortunately not very doable. I can do a variety of textures, but the very fine surface sandiness is not possible with our design software. At least not with a massive amount of time to do it manually.

    We had done the hex on the outside to reduce some material and provide some texture, but it appears you guys would prefer another pattern.

    We're not long from finishing things up I believe.
     

    Baron23

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    I guess I’d want as much of a reasonably fine texture as you can do reasonably. That is, I have a hard time seeing how that octagonal honeycomb would be comfortable to grip.

    so no deep pebbling. Got that.

    can they be made w just a bit of a rough surface or the nipples you have on the backstrap of your Adaptive Grip.

    In terms of surface finish, what can you do?
     
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    Tyler Kemp

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    "Patterns" are doable. Ultra fine randomized type things are not doable. So little points diamonds, plus signs, knurling, etc.
     

    Baron23

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    I would assume if you go to his web page and look at the different textures he has on his modular grip that those are all options
    Great idea...I'm an idiot! haha

    @Tyler Kemp - just my view but of the textures you show on your adaptive grip, I would be happy with grooved or random on the J Allen grips

    1616204761383.png

    1616203755668.png

    1616203719657.png

    Still sort of interested in what knurling looks like.

    Given that this will be made out of rather hard plastic, I'm thinking that some of the other patterns may indeed just be too sharp...maybe?

    Others may express a desire for either plus symbol or diamonds

    Cheers
     
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    cwinner

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    My vote would be for the one in the middle.....
     

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    Tyler Kemp

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    Here's how I think we'll roll. This has been by far the most popular texture on my new vertical grips, and I think it'll look good on the j allen as well!

    After MJFing these prototypes it should be really close.
     

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    Baron23

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    Here's how I think we'll roll. This has been by far the most popular texture on my new vertical grips, and I think it'll look good on the j allen as well!

    After MJFing these prototypes it should be really close.
    I'm way fine with the random pattern you show. All good, Tyler.

    About when do you think you will have final orderable product to ship?
     

    TacticalDillhole

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    Here's how I think we'll roll. This has been by far the most popular texture on my new vertical grips, and I think it'll look good on the j allen as well!

    After MJFing these prototypes it should be really close.
    What colors can or will you do? Black would be fine on my multi cam chassis but the green color from the factory would be best so it’s closer to the cheek riser but in the end it matters not.
     

    Steel head

    Feral kitten
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Aug 3, 2014
    13,560
    35,428
    Washington
    Here's how I think we'll roll. This has been by far the most popular texture on my new vertical grips, and I think it'll look good on the j allen as well!

    After MJFing these prototypes it should be really close.


    Is the grip interface the same on the M14 JAE’s
    If so a buddy will certainly be interested in this
     

    Maxduty

    Quae Moriatur
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Mar 8, 2014
    1,075
    2,209
    Oklahoma
    Is the grip interface the same on the M14 JAE’s
    If so a buddy will certainly be interested in this
    If they bought J Allen outright, then the new ones would be the same. If they bought the name, there may be issues with the patent. Only they know at this point.
     

    TacticalDillhole

    Shiner of shoes
    Supporter
    PX Member
    Minuteman
  • Jun 26, 2012
    6,645
    7,593
    N. Carolina
    If they bought J Allen outright, then the new ones would be the same. If they bought the name, there may be issues with the patent. Only they know at this point.
    They bought the whole enchilada. MDT has been very open, to the extent they can, about the fact there will be changes in their version from the legacy JAE.
     
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