One thing you all are forgetting is that just because someone is smart it doesn't mean that they are not a dumb ass.
- Thread starter Ryguy
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Some military types were the exact opposite of what the OP were talking about: Standoff at The Bundy Ranch: A First-hand Account ? #OAF
I'm with you, and my point is the more you focus on the nuclear option, i.e. violent rebellion, the less strong/righteous your position appears to be and your opponents can use / are using this against you.
There's a reason certain segments of the media portray what I will call 2nd amendment supporters as Jihadists.
I wish I could offer an alternative strategy or even some ideas, but changing the world is a very difficult thing, especially with limited resources.
I understand what you are saying, it isn't a pleasant subject, and it is important to express yourself clearly because the enemies of the Constitution will look for any excuse they can to discredit those who would protect it.
People need to wake up! They are already getting to big and that is feeding them. As much as I hate to say it they have been getting away with things without hardly anyone in the US raising an eyebrow. This is bad for reasons stated above in the last two posts.
As far as the argument about Iraq and our outcome there, this is the problem in the argument. Our military has never been turned loose. Thy are intentionally held back and with good reason. Nobody wants innocent lives taken but think if it like this. If they were all brainwashed, think Nazi following here, and knew their families were safe and were given the to ahead to do whatever is necessary to complete a task then yes I think our military would wipe the floor with anyone standing in their way. If nobody holds them back and they have all resources at their disposal nobody with stupid AKs and ARs stands a chance as much as I would like to believe they would we simply do not IMO. Sure we could throw them off their game and make it difficult for them but it would just be a temporary pain in their ass that's it. The more control they have as well then the more difficult it would be to stand up to hide taking the orders. And as previously mentioned there are all kinds of people that would take advantage of that situation if it ever arose and we would be much much worse off. Everyone would lose imo. People that think otherwise are dangerous. Anyways who knows how it would really play out! Let's hope we never have to find out.
As far as the argument about Iraq and our outcome there, this is the problem in the argument. Our military has never been turned loose. Thy are intentionally held back and with good reason. Nobody wants innocent lives taken but think if it like this. If they were all brainwashed, think Nazi following here, and knew their families were safe and were given the to ahead to do whatever is necessary to complete a task then yes I think our military would wipe the floor with anyone standing in their way. If nobody holds them back and they have all resources at their disposal nobody with stupid AKs and ARs stands a chance as much as I would like to believe they would we simply do not IMO. Sure we could throw them off their game and make it difficult for them but it would just be a temporary pain in their ass that's it. The more control they have as well then the more difficult it would be to stand up to hide taking the orders. And as previously mentioned there are all kinds of people that would take advantage of that situation if it ever arose and we would be much much worse off. Everyone would lose imo. People that think otherwise are dangerous. Anyways who knows how it would really play out! Let's hope we never have to find out.
I disagree. Think about what youre saying here. That letting the military go on a full-out genocide spree would be their key to winning? You cant compare an insurgency with WW2. No doubt there are some serious restrictions in place on our guys overseas that we could likely do without. However, how much would taking those restrictions away change the outcome? Say, anytime a soldier suspects a person is an insurgent, theyre cleared hot to take them out. But would that really change anything? Lets say screw the unarmed bystanders, if theyre in the way kill `em. Again, what would that change? Screw it, anytime a village is suspected of harboring terrorists, lets crater the entire place. AGAIN, what does that change?
My point is, IMO "letting the military loose" would most likely only change/increase our tactical victories. As far as the big picture, it wouldnt change a thing, if not make the situation worse.
"It is a fallacy that prolonged war will weaken an occupied enemy. It most likely will make your enemy stronger."
Note that Im not claiming to know how to win in Afghanistan. But I full well believe that loosening the ROEs will not really help. Tactically sure it could help. But as far as actually winning the war, I doubt it. IMO its similar thinking to what were doing already; that is, turning tactical victories into a strategy. In simple terms, were basically trying to hunt them down and kill them as we find them(or they find us), just like we did in Vietnam. That obviously aint gonna work.
I think Alexander Solzenhitsen had the answer you seek based on his experience of Stalinist oppression..........
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
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Yes, I see what you guys are saying. Never underestimate a man that has nothing else to lose. I could see that as a driving force for sure and sometimes that determination in the human spirit is all that is needed to prevail over an enemy. Let's hope that we never have to find these things out. Things would be much much worse today than they were back then.
"And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation...."
This is the key to Solzhenitzen.
If the 20th Century taught us anything its that when people get rounded up the only hope is that which you create yourself.
The only anomaly to that would be the experience of the American citizens of Japanese descent. We rounded up some Germans and Italians also. I wonder what would of been the response had they resisted or in cases when they did resist.
This is the key to Solzhenitzen.
If the 20th Century taught us anything its that when people get rounded up the only hope is that which you create yourself.
The only anomaly to that would be the experience of the American citizens of Japanese descent. We rounded up some Germans and Italians also. I wonder what would of been the response had they resisted or in cases when they did resist.
One need not have combat experience to understand war, but I think it helps. This is because war is not one thing, nor is it even understandable in its entirety by combatants. Losing a war imparts important and hard lessons that the victor never experiences. Consider such before assailing others views.
My Wife's family came out of the losing side of the Second World War in Germany and Russia. The combatants in her family were all dead before I met her, but their personal photographs of the Wehrmacht's experiences in Russia are pretty telling, if sometimes also damning. Before pronouncing such damnation, remember that this is war we are talking about, not golden gloves. War is about dying, and there is no good way to do so.
My knowledge of insurrection comes solely from reading history and maybe also from reading some pretty good fiction. Seeing it in RVN helps, but it does not come close to seeing it through the eyes of the VC. Fighting it gave some knowledge of how frustrating this can be, and how easily minds can turn to abomination. Looking at bodies decomposing for a week or more does not ease one's impulse to start Insurrection.
I would go to long extremes to avoid one, but not any extreme. I would neither trigger nor incite one, but were my neighbors to load up their daypacks and load their rifle magazines, I would be in their number. I would do so because the current incremental bald faced infringement of the Second Amendment is an issue that needs settling, the sooner far better than later. Avoidance invites body counts.
The consequences of both success and failure in such a dispute MUST be settled, if for no better reason than to teach oppressors that oppression has uncomfortable consequences for the oppressor, and to teach those who espouse freedoms and liberties to learn from real experience that those who enjoy freedoms have double responsibilities; to use that freedom responsibly, and to defend those freedoms without reserve. In this case, using it responsibly MUST translate as rising to the occasion where free civilian firearms ownership is threatened. There can be no one responsibility without the other.
Ostriches don't serve as useful models for conflict resolution.
The longer this settlement is avoided, the more telling the consequences MUST be.
Greg
My Wife's family came out of the losing side of the Second World War in Germany and Russia. The combatants in her family were all dead before I met her, but their personal photographs of the Wehrmacht's experiences in Russia are pretty telling, if sometimes also damning. Before pronouncing such damnation, remember that this is war we are talking about, not golden gloves. War is about dying, and there is no good way to do so.
My knowledge of insurrection comes solely from reading history and maybe also from reading some pretty good fiction. Seeing it in RVN helps, but it does not come close to seeing it through the eyes of the VC. Fighting it gave some knowledge of how frustrating this can be, and how easily minds can turn to abomination. Looking at bodies decomposing for a week or more does not ease one's impulse to start Insurrection.
I would go to long extremes to avoid one, but not any extreme. I would neither trigger nor incite one, but were my neighbors to load up their daypacks and load their rifle magazines, I would be in their number. I would do so because the current incremental bald faced infringement of the Second Amendment is an issue that needs settling, the sooner far better than later. Avoidance invites body counts.
The consequences of both success and failure in such a dispute MUST be settled, if for no better reason than to teach oppressors that oppression has uncomfortable consequences for the oppressor, and to teach those who espouse freedoms and liberties to learn from real experience that those who enjoy freedoms have double responsibilities; to use that freedom responsibly, and to defend those freedoms without reserve. In this case, using it responsibly MUST translate as rising to the occasion where free civilian firearms ownership is threatened. There can be no one responsibility without the other.
Ostriches don't serve as useful models for conflict resolution.
The longer this settlement is avoided, the more telling the consequences MUST be.
Greg
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