International Sniper Competition Rule Change

[kraigWY]

New rules for the Internatonal sniper competition.

All competitiors will be required to fire the same gun. A Bolt gun simular to the M-24 only short action, that will be provided to by the AMU.

This will test the individual shooter' ability instead of equipment.

http://www.military.com/news/article/army-mods-sniper-competition-rules.html

 

[Cardinal]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This will test the individual shooter' ability instead of equipment.</div></div>


Not sure I completely agree with this.
This could very well favor snipers like those from US army since they will be using a rifle which is very similar to what they are using everyday. Whereas others like British are used to AI rifles and now have two days to get used to a new rifle...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Totally sure I don't agree with this. It is arrogant and insulting to non-US Army contingents. It blatantly skews the playing field.

Thinking that what the Army really wants is to torpedo this program right out of the starting gate.

Foreign contingents who chose to boycott this event would get my upturned thumb. I hope a lot of them do.

This miscarrieage needs to get the kind of reception it deserves.

It's just like telling all the NASCAR drivers they can only drive one design.

Uh..., wait a minute...

Greg

 

[mgd45]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Come on guys, you really think professionally trained snipers cant learn how to shoot a Rem 700 with two days of practice? Is an AI really going to be that much different that they cant transition to the most famous bolt action rifle out there?

If you want to test the skills of the best race car drivers, you dont let them compete on the same track with totally different cars......you put them in identical cars....then see who's driving skills raise to the top.....

 

[Cardinal]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Come on guys, you really think professionally trained snipers cant learn how to shoot a Rem 700 with two days of practice? Is an AI really going to be that much different that they cant transition to the most famous bolt action rifle out there?

If you want to test the skills of the best race car drivers, you dont let them compete on the same track with totally different cars......you put them in identical cars....then see who's driving skills raise to the top.....
</div></div>


So you are actually arguing that they can learn to shoot a Rem700, in two days, as well as the YEARS some have spent on their native systems? Be as familiar with the operations? take something like the bolt lift. For years they may have used a 60 deg lift and then in two days transition to a 90?
Yes they can try and adapt but they will have a disadvantage compared to those who have used those systems for years.

IF you wanted to them to test the skills only, you should map out the systems used by the entered snipers. Say they use one of the following: M24, M40, AI and TRG. The match would then have the snipers shoot through roughly the same course with all those systems and add the scores from the courses.

 

[sinister]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Guests can bring their own optics.

A sniper can't learn to shoot a simple Mauser-action 7.62 bolt gun? Really?

The Benning Sniper Competition is a well-put together competition challenging basic sniper skills. Unfortunately they don't have the time nor wherewithal to organize advanced championships with "Unlimited" and "Open" weapons and equipment any more. That's a crying shame as there are fewer venues to show off state-of-the-art. Bragg's competition is more for Special Forces and specialized units.

 

[Tactical]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I like it!

Shooters not equipment.

Realy too hard to learn to run a simple bolt action design?

Please we are not programming computers here.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Everyone keeps talking about "learning how to use" the R700 variant...It's not about can a sniper with 20 years experience LEARN the weapon in two days, sure he can! But can he master it in the same way that a sniper with 20 years experience ONLY shooting that weapon can. No. No he cannot. Caliber restriction might be a better leveler of the playing field than restricting everyone to the US Army's favored rifle.

And for those making the NASCAR correlation, you couldn't take a F1 driver out of F1 and drop him in NASCAR and expect him to compete at the top levels of competition without some SERIOUS training. He might dominate NASCAR in a few years, but the crossover training isn't so simple, even though both race cars are operated using similar systems, gas, brake, steering wheel, etc. It is that mastery required at the very top level of competition that is really being discussed here...

 

[High Binder]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mustafa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And for those making the NASCAR correlation, you couldn't take a F1 driver out of F1 and drop him in NASCAR and expect him to compete at the top levels of competition without some SERIOUS training. He might dominate NASCAR in a few years, but the crossover training isn't so simple, even though both race cars are operated using similar systems, gas, brake, steering wheel, etc. It is that mastery required at the very top level of competition that is really being discussed here...
</div></div>

It's why they have IROC, they are all put into unfamiliar cars, just like in this case they should all be given some other obscure rifle that none of them would be familiar with, other-wise it's a poor excuse for an unbiased competition.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Agreed!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I applaud the decision,

The issue is guys getting sponsored equipment -- read non-issue stuff.

You have people coming off deployment with rifles long in the tooth versus guys who have what is essentially custom built sticks. Manufacturers were beginning to realize the marketing value of having their "team" using their rifle win.

This is taking the corporate influence out of the competition as it is supposed to be a military competition and not a corporate sponsored proving ground for the next generation product.

It would be one thing if the guys pulled the rifle off the rack in the armory, the same rifle everyone else was using that was also in the Army. But it was not happening that way. If they want to go out and train up prior to the competition with a civilian or private instructor and their units lets them go, more power to them, but to also get a rifle to use that is not an issued piece of kit is what they are trying to avoid. But everyone should get the same opportunities and because of deployment schedules, that may not and mostly likely cannot happen.

It's a good decision in my book.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

LL brings up a good point which I hadn't considered.
But I think I would have preferred a rule which stated only original, as-issued systems which are the standard weapons in their respective services may be used.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Now let's see how the guys from the AMU do, as Lowlight said, there sticks were built for them. I see how this does level the field at the 1000 yard range, the guys spitting 338lm had a bigger advantage then the marines and army guys running 308. If I had a choice, it would be caliber set not rifle set. Plus this business with the glass, I do not agree, many guys are buying their own and mounting it to there issue rifles, most of them are north of 10x, I say let them go hog wild with the glass.

 

[sharac]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Same BS as when some teams had custom builds just another side of the same crappy coin. If you go and make sniper competitions where active duty snipers from different branches/countries compete what they have to use is their ISSUED rifles and thats that.
Don't know how close those matches are but how does it sound that one team will have no adaptation needed and every other team will have to adapt to the allowed rifle...

There are better ways to solve the problem but hey if someone wants to call their competition "international" and force their type of gear on everyone else let them it just shows their credibility and my guess is other teams won't be happy with it..

 

[Indypendent]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Good intention...poor execution.

Everyone has already brought up all the solid points that lead me to believe that this is a poor decision. With that said, the "rule makers" should just make a valid attempt at ensuring guys bring/use their issued rifles/optics/systems, regardless of caliber.

The rule should state that competitors must bring equipment issued or paid for by their unit. The catch-all would be the honor system.

And trust me, I've already forecasted the whining that would come about if some country sent a team with superior gear/caliber. I actually wish they would bring stuff like that...and win. At the very least, it would show our military that we could be more capable and should be providing superior equipment to our own guys.

 

[SFree]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Anybody afraid of being outshot with your own rifle???


It's happened to me...

Wake up, train up, and shoot up. You might not be as good as you think you are.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SFree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody afraid of being outshot with your own rifle???


It's happened to me...

Wake up, train up, and shoot up. You might not be as good as you think you are. </div></div>

I'm sorry, but what the hell are you talking about. These guys are in great fight form and saying that they need to train up is alittle belittling to the operators that compete. Point of fact, Im sure your telling them right now because some are here.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now let's see how the guys from the AMU do</div></div>

They will win, like they do every time they show up.

It ain't about the rifle.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now let's see how the guys from the AMU do</div></div>

They will win, like they do every time they show up.

It ain't about the rifle. </div></div>

I have seen those two guys shoot in person, there stuff is wired tight.

 

[Kells81]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I would think this would help the international competitors with logistical issues with their weapons they would normally chose to bring. I am not 100% on it but I would be money its a PITA to get all those weapons in and out of the country.

As far as the weapons I would say that it doesn't get any simpler than the M24, the competitors may run into issues if there is a Semi platform in use though.

Most likely even if they are given slingshots the best man will win either way.

 

[sharac]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

No they won't.

We are not talking about me or some other amateur competing at "Olympic" level, we're talking about "olympic" guys competing at olympic level and every little detail can be just the thing to tip the balance. IF you intend to make a really high profile match where you expect nothing but best to compete there is no way you can force upon all the gear one team/competitor trains/lives with and others might have seen it or might have even shot it once or twice. It would be all good if they chose some "unknown" rifle which no one is particularly familiar with.

Still if army team doesn't win so much worse off they'll be as they'll be beat with their own kit

.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I've learned plenty from this topic since my post, expecially Frank's points. I had not been aware of the reasons behind the decision.

The reasoning now makes better sense, but I also suspect it's not going to achieve the intended end.

What's to prevent vendors from continuing to provide their gear, but simply providing it to a new set of specs?

I could even foresee a proliferation of branded clone rifles, each hawking some one or other special subtle advantage that still flies low beneath the rules radar.

"A" for desire, "C" for execution.

Rules wars are legend.

Even The IROC reference allows lattitude for tuning. My reference to NaSCAR was meant to give a subtle inference that there is no such thing as a truly level playing field.

People will always find a way around rules, either legitimately, or not. The last thing I'd want is some motivation to engender a new brand of concerted and subtle subterfuge.

By my estimate, competition should be about providing a proving ground; under controlled conditions, for the benefit of innovation.

This rule flies directly in the face of such a concept.

I can see what it's intended to do. I just can't see what it's actually good for.

IMHO, it's just another manifestation of the world trend toward regimentation and universal discouragement of innovation.

It treats Snipers and their implements as interchangeable cogs.

They are not, and never should be.

The best rules are the least rules, and those, the least restrictive. This change is the direct opposite.

All said, the test of a rule is the consequences it breeds. Even a bad rule needs its chance to prove itself. So I wait, watch, and sincerely hope to be proved wrong.

Greg

 

[Ratbert]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change


In golf there are frequently calls to standardize equipment, most frequently the ball itself. The idea is the same: if everyone plays the same ball it will make the game about skill and not equipment, right? But the problem is that if you require everyone to use the same ball then the people who's game naturally favors the characteristics of the "standardized" ball have the advantage because everyone else is playing with equipment that is not optimized to their game. So you don't end up finding the golfer with the most skill, you end up finding the golfer who is the best fit for the standardized equipment.

I really don't see how forcing everyone to use the same non-issue rifle solves the problem that some people were using non-issue rifles. Just eliminate any pretense that you have to show up with issued rifles, select some sort of ballistic limit on the chambering to break people into power classes and let people run what they brung. Then when everyone's got what they feel is the best equipment for them we can sort out the wheat from the chaff. If one team's equipment is obviously giving a huge advantage then next year every team will have that and quite probably some useful knowledge will be distributed to the field.

 

[Dodgefan]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I shot this match in 2008 and they had two classes
Open class- Basically anything goes (Robbie Johnson shot a custom built 300WSM with a S&B)
Service Class- limited to 308 rifles as issued to your respective service.
The guys who won didn't when because of their equipment they won because they were flat out better then the competition.
First pace was AMU Johnson and Gordon Open Class (ex Ranger Batt)
Second Place- Ranger Batt Team From Lewis Open Class
Third Place- SFSC Instructors Open Class
Fourth Place Overall (First in Service Class) 10th SFG
I'm pretty sure those standings wouldn't of changed if we'd of all been shooting the same system. All four of those teams held the lead at some point during the Comp and could have taken a zero on the last event and still placed the same. The 5th place team was 200+ points back

 

[SFC Carpentier jr]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

When the Winston P. Wilson National Guard Championship us to have a sniper match one of the things that were required as far as the weapon the teams could use was the M24 SWS. They were allowed other weapons like the M21 or a rifle close to the M24. Most of the teams either showed up with the M24 or the M21. They also had to use issued gear.

As a few have posted some of these teams will have no trouble getting use to a bolt gun if they are already issued one.

 

[Indypendent]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I really don't see how forcing everyone to use the same non-issue rifle solves the problem that some people were using non-issue rifles. </div></div>

That's a hard point to argue against.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I see what LL was talking about. I had forgotten the last televised comp that there were a lot of non-issue stuff. If I remember a lot of the US teams, there were a lot of comp style rifles, and non issue scopes and stuff. Instead of making everyone use the same rifle, make everyone use off the rack issued weapons. If an international team shows up with a weapon that is not what is issued, well... Sorry, try again next year.

Making everyone shoot the same creates serious advantages and disadvantages. Plus you are taking away from what the program is really for and that is the training that can be employed later. But then again, in using cometition guns, you also got the same results. The competition shold be done strictly with issued rifles and pistols, right from the individual armories that correspond to the country. This should include ammo and all accessories that a soldier can employ in the field. The group that can best employ these tools are the ones that should be the victor.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I was at Night Force HQ last month, I was talking to the shipping gal there and she was going on about guys in A-Stan calling up and ordering scopes for there issue rifles. So, these guys make it back to there home bases and get to go to this computation. You want them to pull off there glass and put on some BS leup because it was issue? Hell no, let them compete with gear that they use in the field.

 

[dangerdan87]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

Fixed win.

shooter vs equipment or not, the Army is familiar with the weapons they provide...so they aren't really testing the shooter on their part.

 

[Sumpter Steve]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I sort of like it as I don't think that shooting a custom built stick and shooting an issued weapon are one and the same. I would be all for letting the various countries bring/use their "issued" gear only. Let them "compete how they fight".

 

[captrichardson]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

My limited understanding,

The ISC (Int Sniper Comp) was not really intended to be about who walked away with the trophy, it was about the best of the best coming together and pushing each other to a higher level.

To that extent, they are doing a multi day seminar prior to the comp where all of the teams are presenting and learning from each other.

However IMHO, by forcing everyone to use a "rack system", they have made a huge leap backwards in terms of using the comp to push all of the shooters forward.

If someone brought a new rifle or piece of equipment to the ISC, it allowed the value of it to be measured, and it allowed other teams to learn about it.

Now it comes down to the shooters having to try and learn how to get the max out of a system that many of them are moving away from or will never deploy with.

If people are going to get hung up on it being a comp and who walks away with the trophy, then the classes they ran last year should be the answer. If they want a level playing field, then have a stock/issue .223 or .308 class. Then for those who are pushing the envelope, have an open class where anything goes.

In terms of this being a fair or level playing field, per many comments above, this will be far from the case. In a stress based comp like this, the shooters are going to have to rely on instinct/memory for much of what they will do, and you can't build that over 2 days. Shooters of this skill level will know their dope from years of shooting it, now they may be shooting a completely different set of numbers they can’t pull from memory. Scope setups and adjustments vary greatly, and now they may have to use something which could be completely foreign to them.

If working with a rifle and gear that you are not familiar with is a skill they want to stress, then have a stage in the event where everyone picks up something like a SVD/PSL, and have them shoot it. A military sniper must be able to adapt and overcome and accomplish the mission through whatever means they have access to. But that component/skill set is only one of many.

I would applaud everyone who has worked on the ISC over the years, no question that it has pushed the skills and equipment of the sniper community. I just hope that the main focus of the event has not turned away from learning and pushing the envelope which I believe was a big part of the original intent.

Best of luck to everyone involved,
M Richardson

 

[JByrd]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

i think it should be limited by chambering. make it all 308 only or all 300wm only for instance,..nothing crazy.glass is up to the team.whatever your country has chosen as their rig as long as it's chambered in 308 or 300wm. if your country wants to "issue" a 30" barrel then you gotta nav the course and shoot outa position carrying that 30" barrel.

just my thoughts,not that they matter

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

My only question would be, If you insist on using std equipment over and over, when do you showcase the benefits of newer and more modern technology? How do you grow and improve the profession? Aren't the comps at this level designed to show the best fielded sniper team, or is it for the best marksman?
Will everyone be required to run Std mil dot rets with 1/4 moa adj just like the system came out with or are we allowing a little improvement to slip in here? How about the Horus ret? I think it is a go isn't it, as long as it is meeting the power requirements.
Seems to me they are regressing the trade instead of thinking progressively, Why would the powers not look at the equipment that won these comps with a very discriminating eye when contract time came around? We do want these guys to end up with any adv. possible don’t we?
I will wager there will be no such rule at the USSOC comp in Dec.

 

[pawprint]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

I believe this would make more sense, if the caliber was 300 Win. I believe the Army is converting from the 7.62NATO to 300Win, but the "new rules" will require AMU to supply all with 308's! IMHO, if you're using a 300Win as your work gun, then you'll only have a short period to adjust, or adjust back (as the case maybe)to a different round. This is not the best bang for the tax buck, nor is it giving a SM a chance to "show off" their skills-those used on a daily basis with a different caliber.

 

[sinister]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

My understanding is you get a .300 if you're Afghanistan-bound. If not, or returning, you fall back in on a 7.62 rifle.

 

[pawprint]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My understanding is you get a .300 if you're Afghanistan-bound. If not, or returning, you fall back in on a 7.62 rifle. </div></div>
I'm sure you're correct, however; My understanding is that the contract to Rem is for "upgrade or build", 3500 rifles over 5 years. These type of numbers indicate to me that the we will have a "pure" fleet in a few years. Maybe they can change the rules again in a few, to the 300, thus catching up with themselves!

 

[Dusty]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

What rifle and stock setup did the AMU use in 2008?

 

[Dodgefan]

Re: International Sniper Competition Rule Change

It was an AMU built Rem 700 in 300 WSM running 175 SMK bullets in a Tac Mod chassis. Those two were(are)good.