Is a rangefinder a "necessary" part of LRS?

[Amerigo]

Like the title says, is a laser rangefinder considered a necessary piece of equipment for long-range shooting? Are most of you guys (or girls) using this if you aren't at a range with known distances? Or do you mess around with Google Earth, or mark a waypoint with GPS, etc?

Right now I don't shoot further than 600 yards due to where I live. I've calculated that distance with Google Earth. I'll be moving to the high desert out west next year where I'll be able to shoot much further, and I'm thinking it would be a pain to mess around with that. I do already own a GPS, I've just never used for a shooting application.

ETA: I'll be shooting paper and steel out in no mans land. No hunting. I hope to get to 1000 yards and beyond.

 

[clmayfield]

Yes. I tried using subtensions, but beyond 300-400 yards, you need very large objects to get your ranges right using subtensions and a mildot master. Google Earth is OK as long as you have appropriate landmarks, but you can't just set a target in a field and expect to see it on Google Earth. For 1,000 yards and less, you don't need a Terrapin or anything if your distances are fixed. You can go with a Leica 1600, a Swaro, or some of those Arc Fusion binocs and be done with it. It is worth it.

 

[jkonzal]

I wouldn't consider long range shooting without one.

 

[secondofangle]

The essentials appear to be:

Capable gun with scope with elevation +/- windage knob(s)
known ballistics/velocity/drops/coefficients
Range finder and windage/weather/elevation measurements
Spotting arrangement (you getting back on target, or a competent spotter with spotting scope or rifle or binos)
Ballistics program or charts specific for your weather conditions

If you have all day, unlimited ammo, known consistent weather conditions, etc, you can skimp on this basic equipment, but you leave much more to chance

Shooting immobile steel at known range with predictable/consistent wind is one thing, shooting at live/moving targets in unknown/unfamiliar terrain is quite another....

 

[Ultraman550]

The only way you're going to get exact yardage without a very good LRF at distances past the mentioned 300 is with one of these.

Electronic Measuring Wheels, Digital Measuring Wheels

But the problem is unless you're walking on completely flat ground without any valleys you're going to get readings that aren't right. I have one of these and I have an OK range finder ($325) so I wanted to check the accuracy. At first the reading on my range finder and the readings I got from the measuring wheel were way different and I blamed the LRF for being a piece of shit. Then I realized I was walking over uneven ground, down a small hill then up and so on. Turns out actually that my LRF can actually range out to 999 (its claim to fame is 1000 yards) but I was ranging on a gigantic silver pick up truck. Ranging on a 12"x24" steel plate past 500 yards wasn't happening so then I realized...my LRF is indeed a piece of shit. Currently I'm looking at the Terrapin before is goes into extinction and the Leica 1600b. When I want to shoot past 600, 700, 800 I drag my wife out who sits at my shooting point with the LRF and a walkie talkie while I drive to the desired distance (700, 800 etc..) and she tells me where I'm at because my piece of dick shit LRF can't range something that far unless it's the size of a truck.

Do yourself a favor and buy a LRF. Don't buy a shitty one because you might as well just buy a measuring wheel. Buy a good solid expensive LRF and you will happier than a pig in shit you did.

 

[tnichols]

Yes. You can range with your ret, google earth, etc...but when you start shooting UKD targets and want to know and learn from your hits or misses (data/dope) it won't mean beans unless you know the actual distance. Get a good one (save your pennies) it's an invaluable piece of kit.

 

[Amerigo]

Before I started this thread, I was planning on buying the Vectronix Terrapin. I'm a buy once cry once guy, and I know I'd end up spending more money in the long run if I didn't just get the Terrapin right off the bat.

But now I'm wondering why using my GPS wouldn't work. My GPS spec sheet says that if I can pick up WAAS signals, it's accurate up to 3 meters (the same spec as the Vetronix). (If I can't pick up the WAAS signals it is only accurate to 15 meters. I'll have to figure out how reliably I can pick up the WAAS satellite).

So my thinking is I drive out to my chosen target spot, set up my steel, and mark a waypoint on the GPS. Get back in the car and drive out to my desired distance. The GPS will be telling me in real time how far I am away from the steel. Badda-bing, badda-boom.

Wouldn't this work just as well as spending $2k on the Terrapin? I have about $3k to spend for a graduation present (to myself ) and I could use that $2k to upgrade my glass, or buy ammo, or a Targetcam. I already have a Kestrel 4500 and an iPhone app for my ballistics. If anyone can think of why this wouldn't work I'm more than happy to spring for the Terrapin.

 

[Ultraman550]

I think if it was that easy everybody would have done it by now. Then again I could also be speaking out of my ass so PLEASE PLEASE let us know if this works. It would be nice to not spend $2000 on a LRF that I will never use to its full capability.

 

[matt2143]

I have spent a whole lot of time marking points in a marine environment with a variety of range finders and GPS units. Honestly if you have a Trimble Nomad with sub meter GPS receiver then go for it. Even my Trimble Nomad standard GPS was off a bit compared to my Terrapin and distance confirmation via dope. The Nomad is a very good Sirfstar III GPS receiver with WAAS and is designed as the basis for industrial surveying. FYI my other GPS were a Garmin 60csx and the newer 62s.

So no I don't not feel Google earth or a consumer handheld GPS are great tools for this.

 

[justinbaker]

Before I started this thread, I was planning on buying the Vectronix Terrapin. I'm a buy once cry once guy, and I know I'd end up spending more money in the long run if I didn't just get the Terrapin right off the bat.

But now I'm wondering why using my GPS wouldn't work. My GPS spec sheet says that if I can pick up WAAS signals, it's accurate up to 3 meters (the same spec as the Vetronix). (If I can't pick up the WAAS signals it is only accurate to 15 meters. I'll have to figure out how reliably I can pick up the WAAS satellite).

So my thinking is I drive out to my chosen target spot, set up my steel, and mark a waypoint on the GPS. Get back in the car and drive out to my desired distance. The GPS will be telling me in real time how far I am away from the steel. Badda-bing, badda-boom.

Wouldn't this work just as well as spending $2k on the Terrapin? I have about $3k to spend for a graduation present (to myself ) and I could use that $2k to upgrade my glass, or buy ammo, or a Targetcam. I already have a Kestrel 4500 and an iPhone app for my ballistics. If anyone can think of why this wouldn't work I'm more than happy to spring for the Terrapin.

That's exactly what I do.

I use a garmin 60csx, and its always spot on

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

I hear that using a GPS is functional - however it seems like quote a PITA, and limiting. For example, it won't work in competition, or hunting - or in most other cases except for the one where you setup your targets, and do everything yourself ahead of time.

I would like to train myself for the occasions when I can't walk out to the Elk or whatever happens to be what I am shooting at.

 

[Okie Gordon]

If you are "only" going to shoot out to 1000 yards or a bit further I think you are overestimating the money you need to spend for a LRF.
While I definitely agree with your philosophy of buying the best you can afford rather than regretting your purchase in the future, good range finders with the yardage limitations you have mentioned are available for around $500.
You can spend the balance of your gift on other stuff (as you mentioned).
Getting yardage using your GPS is absolutely one way to get there but you should have other methods in your kit.
Think of it this way.
If you have a Laser Range Finder, would you utilize the GPS method or would you simply plop down at your chosen spot, get the range with your LRF, and then take the shot?
Down the road if you decide to upgrade to a high dollar LRF you can sell your old one to recoup part of the purchase price.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Dudes it the 21st century. Why the fuck wouldn't you have a good lrf? Buy the best one you can afford and go on.

 

[matt2143]

I agree with killswitch.

 

[high right]

Not many of the matches out here will let you go down range during live fire with my gps!
Get a terrapin or the new bushy arc 1 mile if glass is not important.

 

[verdugo60]

It really depends on your shooting and anticipated needs. If you shoot on known distance range, don't compete, don't hunt then no big deal, can get away without a rangefinder.

If all your shooting will be done under 1000 yards, and you do hunt or set up your own targets, buy a Bushnell 1600 for $400 and you're good to go. For that type of shooting, a rangefinder is a great shortcut to eliminate one more variable (distance) to enable 1st round hits.

If you are or plan on going ELR (1000+) the terrapin is the rangefinder to use. If you don't plan to hunt at those distances, you could save 1500 dollars and do the GPS method you described. I have used that and it works. As has been mentioned, if you hunt/shoot at targets you can't walk to to mark a way-point, the terrapin past 1000 is the best solution. As you probably, know the further you go, the more having an exact range is important as the bullet is dropping faster and your margin of error for wrong distance lessens.

**On a related note, it always baffles me when people invest thousands and thousands in rifles and optics and ammo and then don't train/ buy gear to use it proficiently. I have a buddy who spent $10K in just rifles this year, but doesn't have a range finder and doesn't know how to use a ballistic software program. Granted he is a beginner, but if he doesn't keep gearing up/learning he will never be a precision shooter capable of hitting past 300-400 yards or so. That distance is a chip shot for many here.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

That's exactly what I do.

I use a garmin 60csx, and its always spot on

Mine as well. It is more accurate than a laser range finder. I think a LRF is perfect for competitions and other tactical operations, but I do not see it as a "need".

 

[Amerigo]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

I don't hunt (although I hope to get into it one day), and right now I don't feel confident enough to compete. So all of my shooting right now consists of either range time with known distances or involves me shooting paper or steel out in the boonies. Since I'm not shooting animals, I have to set up a target anyway, unless I wanted to shoot rocks or trees. (And then the rock and tree lovers would be all up in arms and we can't have that. )

So I'm thinking the money may be better spent on a Targetcam and ammo, which would give me the range time to improve my skills to the point where I would feel confident enough to start entering some competitions.

 

[WaltHer]

Amerigo, I do both laser rangefinding and google earth/GPS plotting and have had really good luck with both techniques, but I use them in different conditions. When I set a fixed target I will GPS its location, confirm it with LRF, and plot it on Google earth as backup. Unfortunately, many of the places I shoot are challenging to get to and could take several hours to set up, round trip. Having a quality LRF fixes that problem. If you can drive up to both your target and FFP, GPS and Google earth might be fine. If you shoot at naturally occurring terrain (i.e. rocks) or at targets that are not easy to access the LRF is a much better solution. In your opening post you indicate that distances of 1K yd.s is your initial goal, if so their are several fine LRF options that aren't $2000. The Lecia, Zeiss, and appropriate Bushnell products are fine examples. My Lecia 1600 routinely picks up 19"x35" steel hanger at just short of 1700 yds, and in proper lighting has given returns on large reflective targets past 1900. Who ever said, "buy once, cry once" is right though, and I find myself back in the LRF market needing a Terrapin. FWIW

 

[secondofangle]

Consider this:

Buy a used Swaro or Leica. It will take a while before you can shoot beyond where these can range.

When you outgrow it, sell it and get a Terrapin (assuming they're still made.)

 

[SScott]

I wouldn't consider long range shooting without one.

+1
It's one of the tools that you will need to make long shots without having to "walk in" every shot.
Scott

 

[sib1948]

TargetCam is great to see hits at range, but you still need to know distance to target to put bullets on paper or steel and for that it sounds like GPS will be your best bet.

 

[Playerz1337]

I'd say go with a used Swaro LRF for like $700, it ranges way past your goal. Lifetime warranty, great glass. Get the $2k LRF when you upgrade to a 338LM or CT and can shoot a mile.

 

[sinister]

The recommendations for a Swaro, Leica, or Bushnell are all spot-on. You can get quite a capable 1,000-1200 yard capable laser for under $700.

GPS and Google Earth are good tools for preliminary imagery scouting/recon (analyzing BLM public land for target layouts and ricochet and backstop fans) but may not be as user-friendly once you're on-site.

I have a friend who uses his I-Pad once we're out in the desert (we're blessed with good connectivity) -- but nothing replaces a laser, optical range-finder, or eye-balls on-target.

 

[CthulhuAwakens]

I just picked up a Terrapin. They might be discontinued shortly so this might be the last opportunity to get a LRF that is capable of ranging out to 2400 Meters. I'm sure that as technology improves there will be something else on the market but who knows when that will be.

 

[Bradu]

I bought a rangefinder when I got back into shooting and I feel it's a critical component in long range shooting. I like to hunt so using gps isn't an option, I haven't got a deer or coyote to hold still long enough for me to walk out and get a reading lol. I bought a SwaroRF then I ended up with Leica Geovids which are expensive but they are well worth it. I have thought about selling them a few times to buy another rifle but without them the longer shots are just a wild ass guess.

 

[Richard Cranium]

It looks like your from Utah, I would get on KSL and find a good used rangefinder. There are plenty out there for less than $500 that will suit your needs. Skip the target cam and buy ammo.

 

[PittsDriver]

Amerigo, there have been a lot of good suggestions but I've found my ipad with its' internal gps with a distance tool app works best for me. I go to the west side of Utah Lake at the extreme south end by Mosida Farms. With the ipad I can have my maps of the area, a PDF of the BLM map showing the closed shooting areas in case law enforcement happens to stop by. I do exactly what you are asking about. I drop a pin where I set steel the furthest out and move back to shoot at the desired distance. I'll set intermediate targets as I move back and range them with my scope. After I finish shooting I'll check the distance with the gps to check how well I did with the reticle in my scope. It also gets me used to "seeing" the size of the target at various ranges. Burning it into the noggin for lack of a better term. I just dropped a boatload of coin on my 338LM so I would rather feed the beast than buy another piece of equipment. I shoot for enjoyment and don't compete so my comments are worth what you paid for them.

 

[deadnbrkn84]

Bushnell elite arc 1600 can be found right now for $400. I've ranged over 1800 with it. Has worked in fog/mist when Leica's wouldn't. Has not be "outranged" by my buddies Zeiss so why spend the extra? Sorry I'm not buying the "better glass" maybe one that is twice the price has better glass but then why do you care? Think about how much time you spend looking through it. Very little

 

[kraigWY]

They are fun to play it, handy at times. Sometimes not. I wouldn't stake my life on one. You can use your front sight or recital, better yet a Mil Dot. I don't like to depend on batteries if I don't have to.

When I was in the Army we used maps for range finding. They work, don't need batteries. and you don't have to worry about angles (up or down hill shooting). The distance you get with the map is what you need to adjust for.

When hunting, I normally have one but seem to always leave them in the pack. I know the size of the animals I'm hunting so I find a Mil Dot faster.

But again, I have one. it is fun to play with. But learn other methods, don't become too dependent on batteries. Same thing with GPS's, they work, they are fun, but don't leave home without your map and compass.