Night Vision Is it legal to buy a peq-15 from eBay?

[consmyth]

I am not sure on the whole ebay thing. I can tell you Victor is absolutely correct from the research we did. We had several older restricted visible and infra red lasers last year we wanted to get rid of to purchase new ones. Our command staff actually contacted the FDA on this and after getting to the right dept which was exhausting we learned that we could only turn these back into the manufacturer or destroy them. Not sure on the whole penalty, felony, or misdemeanor stuff but why on earth would any agency risk put themselves at risk by selling lasers to begin with?

Victor you may not know me personally but you and your staff have been a great asset to us for many years.

JM

 

[TxHoghunter]

Done with me? I could only be so lucky!

Now... do you REALLY want me to go do my homework? Think and I mean REALLY T H I N K long and hard on this because if I actually take the time to go looking... you KNOW I will find out the real deal, and that hasn't always worked out so well for you in the past now has it?

I really want you to do your homework. I have read enough FDA laser laws to make your head spin. Please educate us.

Where is that damn agent Wu when you need him !!

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

Let me chime in on this: Pete, I know of one case.

A local guy who owned a gunshop was prosecuted for acquiring a PEQ-2A from a local police department. Among other things.

The charge was mail fraud if I remember correctly.

 

[GBMaryland]

I'll add to that last post:

I know of a person that purchased a PEQ-2A on a well known forum. (It's a forum that we all know really well.)

The price was about $2500.00 and was sold as a LEO owned unit, and it was brand new.

The purchaser did not know that PEQ-2As were restricted, but after reading a post on AR15 about it become suspicious. (About a bunch of stuff...)

He then took a closer look at the unit an noticed that it appears that someone had skillfully removed a few digits of the serial number. He then went back to read the post for the PEQ-2A and noticed that its For-Sale post contents was gone. (This is about a year/year and a half later.)

He opted to call Customs, find the Agent related to the AR15 com post through the phone system, and have a conversation about this. (This verified that the guy was real and not someone posting on AR15 as a agent of a foreign power... just in case... its still an ITAR issue.)

This is when he found out that it had to be a stolen item (it was actually new), that it WAS reported at destroyed in-theater, that they had gotten the original person responsible for the batch of thefts, and that you have a few options... mostly they deal with returning it to a military depot, giving it to Customs (nearest field office), or if you work for the military, you can give it to them... or give it to local law enforcement and file a report.

It's not an issue if you didn't know it was a LEO/MIL only item. ...and there ARE actually a few where Insight screwed up and sold them to civies (but it's SOOOOOO small a number).

Now, with a PEQ-15, I'm pretty sure LEO agencies can't generally get those at all. (I'm not definite on that, but I know one of the newer Ir illuminators / designators is not available to LEOs in general.)

Anyway, this was 2-3 years ago, right before good civilian options came online. And it cost the fellow a fair amount of money, as he ended up turning it over to the USA as per the Agent's general directions.

- Lost money
- Was in receipt of stolen property (unknowingly, but in the end, that's not a good enough excuse)
- Could have had the knock of the door
- No warranty
- Not eye safe

...I could go on, but why bother.

 

[Altnews]

Let me chime in on this: Pete, I know of one case.

A local guy who owned a gunshop was prosecuted for acquiring a PEQ-2A from a local police department. Among other things.

The charge was mail fraud if I remember correctly.

You would expect that if it's someone conspiring with a cop to misappropriate department equipment, which is theft by the officer.

However, should a police department dispose of used units by auction, as they often do with guns and other equipment they are replacing, then acquiring a unit from a reseller who purchased it at auction at a later date would not be a crime. At worst if it was proven that the PD improperly auctioned the items in violation of some agreement with the DOD under which the units were donated to the PD (kinda like the MRAPs that the DOD are handing out like a huckster hands out handbills for nudie bars in San Francisco) then one might be obliged to turn the unit over to DOD, and I emphasize "might." It wouldn't be stolen property because it wasn't stolen, and the DOD's recourse is against the PD for violating some contractual agreement (meaning usually they get cut off from getting goodies from the DOD). Individuals however have a right to rely on the claims made by the PD as to title to the device and the PD's authority to dispose of it according to its regular practices.

But suppose the PD got the units directly from the manufacturer and the only violation was of a contractual agreement with the manufacturer. In that case you can tell the DOD or anybody else to pound sand because the manufacturer has no recourse against you, since you lawfully purchased it from the PD.

All that being said, the number one indicator that you're buying a stolen or misappropriated unit is for the serial number to be missing or tampered with, and anything with a value of more than $500, and certainly all ex-government ITAR items are going to have a serial number because that's required by federal law. In most states it's a crime simply to possess ANYTHING that has an altered or obliterated serial number, and evidence of tampering with a serial number on any item at all gives police probable cause to seize the item as evidence and charge you.

So ask for a close-up photo of the serial number before you buy, and if the vendor won't provide it, it's almost certainly stolen or misappropriated. If you DO get the serial number, and you give a damn, you could contact whomever the unit was purportedly auctioned by to verify that it's been legally disposed of, and you might ask for a letter to that effect, with the serial number of the unit, from the agency involved.

All THAT being said, he who doth not know his rights deserves that which happens to him.

You know how most endangered species poachers get caught? They forget the third "S" in "Shoot, Shovel and Shut-up."

 

[Altnews]

LOL, ok Peter...The last time you did you homework around here for the real deal on the Hide could have gotten someone killed with your famed drilling holes in the Ops Core helmet DIY lanyard project by installing bolts through the helmet next to someones skull. Good news several brought this to your attention, but we already had a safer solution that seemed to keep hundreds of skulls from injury. TNVC Base Jump Lanyard ? Tactical Night Vision Company

Good luck there Pete! Out.

Nice irrelevant ad hom dodge there Victor. Worthy of Leonard Spinks. Pete, did you check your ears to see if anything's missing?

 

[Altnews]

I am not sure on the whole ebay thing. I can tell you Victor is absolutely correct from the research we did. We had several older restricted visible and infra red lasers last year we wanted to get rid of to purchase new ones. Our command staff actually contacted the FDA on this and after getting to the right dept which was exhausting we learned that we could only turn these back into the manufacturer or destroy them. Not sure on the whole penalty, felony, or misdemeanor stuff but why on earth would any agency risk put themselves at risk by selling lasers to begin with?

Why not? It's a shitload of taxpayer money that the department spent on them and the taxpayers ought to benefit from auctioning them off so as not to waste more taxpayer money than necessary replacing obsolete equipment. Many departments have rules that REQUIRE them to auction off stuff for exactly that reason...and so that the cops can't just stuff them in their pockets when the new ones come in. Who gives a shit what the FDA has to say? I know I don't. It's not illegal to OWN a high-power laser, it's at best a regulatory violation to SELL one in interstate commerce and it's not like the FDA is going to waste its time pursuing a PD that sold it's PEQ's rather than sending them to the crusher.

I'm not even certain that the FDA even has jurisdiction over secondary disposition of such items by their lawful owner, since the PD is a public entity not engaged in interstate commerce, which is the ONLY authority under which the FDA can regulate such things. Public entities operate under different rules when it comes to the government's interstate commerce clause authority.

It might be illegal under FDA regs for the random Asian guy at a gun show who sold me that 250mw green laser from China to do so, but I paid for it and it's mine. If they want to find the Asian guy and prosecute him for illegally importing it, that's their problem, but there's no law saying I can't possess the laser. Which is exactly why they are on the market.

 

[shooter6.5]

Read my earlier post. It answers the OP's question totally.

But I gotta tell you that Altnews sums it up perfectly. That is a great summation. and is very accurate.

At this point in time, given the quality of the items currently available I would have no use for one, but there are those who feel the need/

Your choice !!!!!!

 

[GBMaryland]

Why not? It's a shitload of taxpayer money that the department spent on them and the taxpayers ought to benefit from auctioning them off so as not to waste more taxpayer money than necessary replacing obsolete equipment. Many departments have rules that REQUIRE them to auction off stuff for exactly that reason...and so that the cops can't just stuff them in their pockets when the new ones come in. Who gives a shit what the FDA has to say? I know I don't. It's not illegal to OWN a high-power laser, it's at best a regulatory violation to SELL one in interstate commerce and it's not like the FDA is going to waste its time pursuing a PD that sold it's PEQ's rather than sending them to the crusher.

I'm not even certain that the FDA even has jurisdiction over secondary disposition of such items by their lawful owner, since the PD is a public entity not engaged in interstate commerce, which is the ONLY authority under which the FDA can regulate such things. Public entities operate under different rules when it comes to the government's interstate commerce clause authority.

It might be illegal under FDA regs for the random Asian guy at a gun show who sold me that 250mw green laser from China to do so, but I paid for it and it's mine. If they want to find the Asian guy and prosecute him for illegally importing it, that's their problem, but there's no law saying I can't possess the laser. Which is exactly why they are on the market.

Actually, I had a 20kW laser at my last job that I inherited responsibly for... It required a license... -grin- You know, the cutting through the walls by accident, people by accident, etc... Etc...

Now, funny enough, I didn't have to renew the license since we were long done with the testing... So I don't actually remember much about who it was licensed through, and then quadrupally check by, etc.

Lots of steel I-beams that had been cut with the sucker laying around to show folks.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

But suppose the PD got the units directly from the manufacturer and the only violation was of a contractual agreement with the manufacturer. In that case you can tell the DOD or anybody else to pound sand because the manufacturer has no recourse against you, since you lawfully purchased it from the PD.
."

For a time, not sure of it is still the case, I thought individual LEOs could purchase individual units with a dept letter head. These units were not the property of the LEA, but were instead the property of the LEO. If later that LEO, decide to sell their personal unit, it constituted a grey area wherein the civilian owner was not in any form of legal jeopardy, but a contractual violation had occurred and therefore in the event that the unit were later damaged, the manufacturer would not repair it due to the contractual violation.

Is that materially correct?

Is it still possible for individual LEOs to buy personal units with agency paper?

 

[GBMaryland]

My understanding is that DID happen, but not a whole lot... or at least, Insight doesn't want anyone to think that happened a whole lot.

Of course, the only way to really not have a problem is to have the Officer write a letter indicating that he/she sold it to the other person. Otherwise, in general, right or wrong, reasonable to assume that it's stolen property.

Yeah, I know, it sucks, but a LEO asking you how you obtained it is going to assume that it falls in the 99% of them are stolen property category...

Now, assuming you get one from a LEO that got the department to put it on letter head and issue a PO after the officer paid the department, what are chances the property clerk would say to another LEO from somewhere else... "Oh sure, we violated a contract and let an officer purchase one through us...."

In a small town / LEA, maybe.

LAPD, I'm thinking no.

...and you end losing the device (Probably something in the PEQ-2A category, as I'm pretty sure they are not being as careless with the latest LEO only stuff.)

 

[317millhand]

I remember last year when these guys got into a little trouble with post samples and restricted lasers. Never did hear the outcome.

May 17, 2013: Public Corruption Indictments Returned

 

[Mike_Honcho]

I remember reading about the program on Laser Device's web page, it described the pathway for individual / personally owed units by LEOs. Reviewing it just now, I don't see any reference to the same.

In googling around, it looks like circa 2006 / 2007 the FDA started to crack down on such individual LEO purchases (presumably) to stem the leakage into the civilian (grey) market.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Page 11 of the way back machine provides one such direct sale after LEA paper proving bonafides

Comparison of IR Lasers/Illuminators -



CONFIRMATION:
For my boys in Blue


Insights Technology will sell to the individual LEO. I took approxiametly 2 months to receive my PEQ2. Here are a few pics for proof. Sorry guys i'm not a photographer sorry.


Inisights Technology AN/PEQ 2A
Price LEO: $887.03 Shipped


After a wait for almost 2 months I finally got the PEQ2. I had the paperwork all sent 2 months ago. I wanted to do a write up but I felt I did not want to give false hope if I could not purchase the PEQ2. I kept on reading on this Topic that LEO's couldn't get it. I decided some people might not know the truth and are just feeding off of what somebody could not confirm or misinformation that was fed from the dealers selling the PEQ2's. I decided to check for myself by emailing a few companies. I received one no and one yes but we don't sell to individual LEO's. I figured then the dealers might be wrong or just don't sell straight out to LEO's. I figured i'll just cut the crap and head straight to the source. Insights Technology itself. I decided to go to their home web page. I looked up the LEO section and emailed.




This is the email. NOTE I DELETED MY NAME AND REPLACED WITH PUNISHER54




PUNISHER54


Linda is on a day off
She will be back in on Monday and she will be able to help you


Pat






-----Original Message-----
From: PUNISHER54
To: Poirier, Patrick
Sent: Fri Oct 05 16:07:13 2007
Subject: RE: LEO PD


Around what time is the best time to get a hold of linda harms. I attempted to call her but I received no answer.


"Poirier, Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote:


Officer P


You can FAX everything to the 603-668-1084 FAX number, which you will need your request to purchase on your departmental letter head with a shipping address to the department, the IR agreement form and once that has been sent in you can call Linda Harms at 603-551-6033 and give her a credit card number directly. That way your number isn’t sitting on any paperwork and it is put right into the system to start the order. Linda is the person that enters all of the orders to production; she will also be able to give an approximate delivery date.


Pat


Pat Poirier
Law Enforcement Product Specialist
INSIGHT TECH.
23 Industrial Dr.
Londonderry, NH 03053
[email protected]
L-3 Warrior Systems Home
603-551-6035 - Work
603-668-1084 - Fax


________________________________


From: PUNISHER54 Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:53 PM
To: Poirier, Patrick
Subject: RE: LEO El Paso PD


What form of payment to you accept. Also do I use the fax number below to send the paper work. Thanks again patrick.


"Poirier, Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote:


Officer P,


The price of the AN/PEQ-2A is $887.03 each which includes shipping. I have attached the IR agreement for you to fill out and your request will need to be on your departmental letterhead.


Let me know when you are ready to order the AN/PEQ-2A.


Pat


Pat Poirier
Law Enforcement Product Specialist
INSIGHT TECH.
23 Industrial Dr.
Londonderry, NH 03053
[email protected]
L-3 Warrior Systems Home
603-551-6035 - Work
603-668-1084 - Fax


________________________________


From: PUNISHER54]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 6:40 PM
To: Poirier, Patrick
Subject: RE: LEO PD


Thank you Patrick for the quick reply. I don't think I should have a problem doing that. Where can I find this IR agreement form and how much is it for each AN/PEQ-2A. Thanks again Patrick


"Poirier, Patrick" <[email protected]> wrote:
Officer P


The purchase of the AN/PEQ-2A would have to be shipped to your police department, your request to purchase would have to be on departmental letterhead and you would have to do the IR agreement form before the order can be processed. You can purchase the AN/PEQ-2A direct or through one of our dealers.
Let me know if I can be or any other assistance.


Pat


Pat Poirier
Law Enforcement Product Specialist
INSIGHT TECH.
23 Industrial Dr.
Londonderry, NH 03053
[email protected]
L-3 Warrior Systems Home
603-551-6035 - Work
603-668-1084 - Fax


________________________________


From: PUNISHER54]
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:45 PM
To: Poirier, Patrick
Subject: LEO PD


I'm a Officer with Police Department in Texas. I was wondering if you sell the PEQ2 to Officers or do I have to buy it from a retailer. Can you help me as to how one can be acquired. This is my personal email and is the quicker way to reach me. Thank you.


PUNISHER54

 

[tipper]

The purchase of the AN/PEQ-2A would have to be shipped to your police department & your request to purchase would have to be on departmental letterhead . This dose not mean you personally can buy one with out your departments approval. if you did you need to go to jail & do not pass go.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Tipper, you're missing the point. At least for a period of time manufacturers were selling LEOs personal units providing they could prove they were with an LEA and they signed contractual documents regarding the use thereof. The LEO paid for it personally and then the unit was shipped to the LEA. It was never the property of the LEA. Some of these personally owned units were later resold on the open market, and in some cases obtained by civis. They aren't stolen. My understanding of these is that they are simply grey.

I recall seeing these come up every once in a while serval years ago but I have not seen one in a long time (then again I really haven't paid much attention to the c3 lasers since the civi alternative started to appear), but it sounds like the FDA turned the screws and this pathway for individual LEO ownership dried up(?)

 

[cal50]

Since some units appear to have been sold commercially its possible to run across one but the majority of the units sold or distributed were for MIL or LE sales.
Without someway to verify or document it as a "transferable" unit its a gamble with your money and not worth the risk IMHO.

At the minimum once a unit is spotted for sale its a magnet for someone to inquire about its origin, for you.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

[MENTION=26518]cal50[/MENTION]

100% - and then some.

 

[GBMaryland]

Wow. Nice find!

I fall into that grey area with a vendor that sold me a MIL/LEO only thermal device, and I was lucky enough to slip through the cracks. However, I also have the invoice and have sent it back for warranty work, much to the manufacturer's annoyance.

However, in my case, I have none of the contractual issues, as I never signed one.

Good to know that a LEOs were able to actually purchase the PEQ-2As! I've got to wonder how many were ever fielded that way?

 

[TexasGunTrustLawyer]

You would expect that if it's someone conspiring with a cop to misappropriate department equipment, which is theft by the officer. "

Mail fraud is easier to prove to a jury.

 

[wes1]

For a time, not sure of it is still the case, I thought individual LEOs could purchase individual units with a dept letter head. These units were not the property of the LEA, but were instead the property of the LEO. If later that LEO, decide to sell their personal unit, it constituted a grey area wherein the civilian owner was not in any form of legal jeopardy, but a contractual violation had occurred and therefore in the event that the unit were later damaged, the manufacturer would not repair it due to the contractual violation.

Is that materially correct?

Is it still possible for individual LEOs to buy personal units with agency paper?

What if you take this scenario and add a unscrupulous dealer working with a LEO buddy?
The dealer could drop ship the unit to the LEO then LEO would deliver to dealer for shipment to a buyer.

 

[Renegade]

What if you take this scenario and add a unscrupulous dealer working with a LEO buddy?
The dealer could drop ship the unit to the LEO then LEO would deliver to dealer for shipment to a buyer.

Eliminate the unscrupulous dealer and just go with the LEO buddy, and you still wind up with a grand total of 1 unit. There just aren't going to be that many units leaking out as they are so tightly controlled.

As I mentioned before, IMO the biggest risk is a counterfeit unit. Look at all the other counterfeit products - ACOGs, Aimpoints, LaRues, MagPul, etc. Now there even reports of counterfeit BCM charging handles. We are being deluged with phony stuff. Surely there is a market to sell fake MIL/IR units and folks are buying them.

 

[Delta4-3]

Eliminate the unscrupulous dealer and just go with the LEO buddy, and you still wind up with a grand total of 1 unit. There just aren't going to be that many units leaking out as they are so tightly controlled.

As I mentioned before, IMO the biggest risk is a counterfeit unit. Look at all the other counterfeit products - ACOGs, Aimpoints, LaRues, MagPul, etc. Now there even reports of counterfeit BCM charging handles. We are being deluged with phony stuff. Surely there is a market to sell fake MIL/IR units and folks are buying them.

There are counterfeit PEQ-15's out there that look VERY similar to the real deal. Some are even pretty powerful. The first clues are battery life and that it will hold a zero that cant be contained by a county, much less something you are shooting at.

 

[IR-V]

Is it legal to buy a peq-15 from an eBay, army surplus dealer?

It is not illegal for you to buy a PEQ-15 on eBay as long as the PEQ-15 is not stolen.

The "Five S" rules apply:

1 -- See it (aka 'confirm what you're considering to buy is genuine, works, and isn't stolen' BEFORE you buy it)
2 -- Secure it (aka 'don't go bragging about it or blasting it at people, vehicles, homes, buildings or around airports or govt bases and facilities')
3 -- Shut up about it (self explanatory)
4 -- Suck it up (aka 'no whining - it's yours now and you're stuck with it' unless you decide to voluntarily turn it in to the OEM, LE, or military 'don't ask don't tell' drop box)
5 -- Stupid is as stupid does (aka 'don't test whether the local laws restricting the use of IR laser aimers and illuminators, or the ITAR restrictions, still apply, because they do')

S3 thru S5 answers most follow-up questions, such as:

-- "I bought a PEQ-15 on eBay and now it isn't working. Can I send it to the manufacturer for repairs?"
-- "I bought a PEQ-15 on eBay and don't want or need it anymore, can I sell it?"
-- "I want to take my PEQ-15 which I bought on eBay on the plane with me to use on a hunting trip. Can I do this?"
-- "Can I let my friends and family see, touch and use my PEQ-15 which I bought on eBay?"

If you don't like the "Five S" rules or their answers to any of the above "questions," then it is best to NOT buy that PEQ-15 on eBay.

IR-V