Now that I have my long distance needs covered, I am Looking to buy a Howa mini action in 6.5 Grendeland convert it to .224 Valkyrie. I know the bolt will have to be re-cut and I need a .224 Valkyrie barrel and would like a 1 in 6.5" twist. I also need 6.8 spc magazine. Will the cartridge fit in the mini receiver? Is all this possible or am I just dreaming?? Need your help please.
- Thread starter charliebrown1999
- Start date
The biggest problem I see with your plan is the bolt face, you can't recut what isn't there to begin with.
6.5 Grendal case head diameter .445" vs 224V (68 SPC) case head diameter .420".
You could fairly easily do a wildcat .224 based on the Grendal.
I have gone back and forth with the same thing since long before the 224V was even a thought, the original I wanted was the 556 x 42 also based on the 68spc case but unshortened with more capacity and more performance potential and the a 6mm version since it is better than both in my opinion.
The problems I kept running into was the lack of quality actions with the correct bolt face. Thought about swapping a bolt head and using a savage 10 but the little round just looked ridiculous in such a large action, then looked at a rem 700 replacement bolt from PTG still didn't like it.
Ultimately I think until there are more quality options regarding actions for that bolt head I allways end up back at the standard bolt face .473" and rounds with superior ballistics and energy.
6.5 Grendal case head diameter .445" vs 224V (68 SPC) case head diameter .420".
You could fairly easily do a wildcat .224 based on the Grendal.
I have gone back and forth with the same thing since long before the 224V was even a thought, the original I wanted was the 556 x 42 also based on the 68spc case but unshortened with more capacity and more performance potential and the a 6mm version since it is better than both in my opinion.
The problems I kept running into was the lack of quality actions with the correct bolt face. Thought about swapping a bolt head and using a savage 10 but the little round just looked ridiculous in such a large action, then looked at a rem 700 replacement bolt from PTG still didn't like it.
Ultimately I think until there are more quality options regarding actions for that bolt head I allways end up back at the standard bolt face .473" and rounds with superior ballistics and energy.
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Thank you so much. I did not realize that the Grendel's bolt face was .445. I should have checked that measurement. I need to stop dreaming.
No worries and don't stop dreaming.
The bolt diameter issue has been but one source of many a pissing match between the Grendal and SPC.
Personally if I was going to get an action with the PPC bolt face I would just go 6mm PPC or stay with the standard .473" bolt face for the most flexibility.
The 224V seems to be really gaining traction in the short time since its release so I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more bolt actions popping up so maybe with a little patience you will have your dream come to fruition.
Thank you again.
I have a friend that re-barreled a .223 Mini to 5.7 Johnson/.22 Spitfire (necked down .30 Carbine), just because he wanted a cheap Hornet-like bolt gun with a 30-round banana mag for volume prairie dogging. At least in his case, the .018" difference in rim size didn't affect extraction in the least. The Grendel/7.62x39 Mini might afford the same effect vs the Valkyrie but I've no idea what you do for magazines.
In the end a 6.75 twist .220 Russian, .22 PPC or .22 Grendel will probably be the easiest (least expensive) way to approximate the Valkyrie today.
Of course a call to Matt at Legacy Sports International might yield something positive too.
In the end a 6.75 twist .220 Russian, .22 PPC or .22 Grendel will probably be the easiest (least expensive) way to approximate the Valkyrie today.
Of course a call to Matt at Legacy Sports International might yield something positive too.
Honestly, I went back and forth with myself on this very subject (I have a mini action in .223 Rem), and decided that .223 AI will give me probably 95% of the performance of the Valkyrie with MUCH better brass availability, and without needing to pay to open up the bolt face.
Thank you for your advice.
Thanks for the info. I do not know what a .223 AI is. I did read about a guy named Ackley and his mods to some calibers. I do not reload.
Ah, yeah. .223 AI is indeed the Ackley Improved version of the .223 Rem, and is a reload-only chambering. Given that you don't reload, the Valkyrie is probably going to be your best bet in this class of cartridge. The 22 Nosler might be a contender (with it's .223 Rem-compatible bolt face), but it doesn't seem to be nearly as popular as the Valkyrie and so ammo would be more difficult to find, and more expensive when you did find it.
Ok, thanks.
technically a .223 bolt face can be opened up. there is MORE than enough room for the Valkyrie in the mini action.
the issue may be magazine feeding from the box mags.
We are working on a new magazine system and chassis for the mini that will be stellar but these things take time.
kicking around the idea of build a mini V myself.
the issue may be magazine feeding from the box mags.
We are working on a new magazine system and chassis for the mini that will be stellar but these things take time.
kicking around the idea of build a mini V myself.
Matt, I appreciate your response. I have a question for you regarding scope bases. I want to mount a Athlon BRT 6x24x50 side focus MIL/MIL scope on my new Weatherby Vanguard Weatherguard caliber 7mm-08 Remington. As you know that rifle is your Howa 1500 barrel action with a 24" bbl. I know the scope will take me to 1000yds with out using a 20MOA picatinny rail. I only shoot locally and the Pala range is maxed-out at 890 yards. I do not like 1 piece rails as they interfere with loading the blind magazine on the Vanguard. I intend to use XLR industries rings which have the sturdy cross bolt. My question is what bases do you recommend that have the square cut notch that will mate with the cross bolt on the XLR rings?????
any 2 piece Remington 700 bases will work, im not sure about the size of the XLR rings so youd have to figure that part out. the tops of the Howa receiver are the same shape as rem 700, its just the distance between the front set of holes and rear set thats different (different length receiver)
we dont have a timeline for the .224v yet...how would you know this?
I meant looking at all the rifle Co's, not just HOWA.
It's waiting for mag systems particular to 224V so we don't have to trouble shoot it ourselves.
It's waiting for mag systems particular to 224V so we don't have to trouble shoot it ourselves.
oh dont you worry! gotta little somethin up our sleeve.
Matt, I would like to purchase your Howa HMAC-Mini Action Chassis rifle cal 223 Remington 20" heavy bbl, 10rd mag. in black or camo. I cannot find one on the internet. Can you send me a dealer in any state expect CA that has one in stock. Although I reside in CA , I would prefer to avoid the CA sales tax and purchase the gun from a dealer in TX, or AZ, or Utah, etc.
i have no clue who has them in stock, we dont have a way of tracking that. ANY FFL can call and order that from us. 775-828-0555, its easy for a dealer to order direct.
You cant do that. A TX dealer will still have to comply with all of the CA regulations if your license says california on it.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/what-legal-way-bring-a-firearm-california.htm
"As of January 1, 2015, a law in California supplants the federal law. It, too, prohibits California residents from buying guns out of state and simply driving home with them (or shipping them home). Now, the seller must ship to a licensed California dealer, who will treat the event like any in-state transaction, involving the waiting period, background check, and safety certificate. (Cal. Penal Code §§ 26840, 27540, 27545, and 27585.) "
but from dealer in AZ and don't pay sales tax. they ship to your FFL where you have to do all that paperwork anyways...just without the sales tax. i dont think he meant buy from AZ ffl and ship direct
Just because it's different, I guess. FTR, I have zero interest in this cartridge. If I wanted to push a .224" bullet insanely fast I'd build a 22-250 or 22 Creedmoor
Or to go full retard re-size the neck of a 243 Win to take a 224 bullet
Exactly. Im shooting 80 Amax at 2900 and 75 ELD-M at 3040 in a standard 26" 223rem bolt gun.
Svelte, accurate, short, "walk about" rifles like the Howa Mini, the Sako L461/Vixen and the CZ 527 all have around a 2.300" magazine length limit. It's shorter than "regular" short action bolt actions and longer than AR-15 mag lengths so IMO there's a reason to have a moderate sized cartridge that fits well in bolt guns of those sorts. With a long-throated .224V in a tiny bolt gun you can pack a lot of firepower in a very compact package. Not everyone's shooting 1760yd steel or rhinoceros.
A 3lb standard short action that will work with a .555" case web at 65,000psi is overkill for things like .223/PPC/SPC cases in my opinion. I have no interest in a "modern sporting rifle" with all the terrible ergos, tactical rails, lights and banana magazines, throwing brass everywhere. I like accurate bolt guns and like actions appropriately sized to the cartridges I shoot.
Too much time is spent on asking "why" when it should be "why not."
A 3lb standard short action that will work with a .555" case web at 65,000psi is overkill for things like .223/PPC/SPC cases in my opinion. I have no interest in a "modern sporting rifle" with all the terrible ergos, tactical rails, lights and banana magazines, throwing brass everywhere. I like accurate bolt guns and like actions appropriately sized to the cartridges I shoot.
Too much time is spent on asking "why" when it should be "why not."
Amen
Has there been any development on making a Howa Mini-Action in 224 Valkyrie ?
I am looking to buy such a gun. There is not any bolt action guns in 224 Valkyrie available here in Norway yet..... maybe it will happen soon....?
I was also thinking of building one from either a Mini Action in 223REM or 6.5 grendel.
The rim diameter on the Grendel cartridge is 0.441", and on the 224 Valkyrie it is 0.422". So the difference in case rim diameter is only 0.0189" (and radius only half of that, 0.0094"). So the extractor should grip the Valkyrie round I think..... One way to find out if one has a 6.5 grendel is to take an empty 6.5 Grendel case and use a lathe to turn down the case rim to 0.422", then insert it in the chamber, close the bolt, and open and see how it extract the case.
If one build using a 223REM mini-action and open the bolt face a bit, it may be the best way, but not sure if the extractor must be grinded down a tiny bit to allow it to "climb over" the larger Valkyrie rim...... 223REM has 0.378" rim diameter. If one could buy a separate extractor for the 6.5 grendel and insert that one in the 223REM bolt , it may be easier ? The magazine from the Grendel may work for the 224 valkyrie ? The case diameter is not much different.
Best regards from Norway
I am looking to buy such a gun. There is not any bolt action guns in 224 Valkyrie available here in Norway yet..... maybe it will happen soon....?
I was also thinking of building one from either a Mini Action in 223REM or 6.5 grendel.
The rim diameter on the Grendel cartridge is 0.441", and on the 224 Valkyrie it is 0.422". So the difference in case rim diameter is only 0.0189" (and radius only half of that, 0.0094"). So the extractor should grip the Valkyrie round I think..... One way to find out if one has a 6.5 grendel is to take an empty 6.5 Grendel case and use a lathe to turn down the case rim to 0.422", then insert it in the chamber, close the bolt, and open and see how it extract the case.
If one build using a 223REM mini-action and open the bolt face a bit, it may be the best way, but not sure if the extractor must be grinded down a tiny bit to allow it to "climb over" the larger Valkyrie rim...... 223REM has 0.378" rim diameter. If one could buy a separate extractor for the 6.5 grendel and insert that one in the 223REM bolt , it may be easier ? The magazine from the Grendel may work for the 224 valkyrie ? The case diameter is not much different.
Best regards from Norway
Or, just rebarrel a Grendel/7.62x39 Mini in .22PPC or .22 Grendel, or .22AR, etc. and you don't have to mess with re-working magazines. Lapua and Norma brass can be used too. PPC/Grendel has more case capacity than Valkyrie too so you can have more velocity for the same pressure. Just a thought.
Is handloading in Norway cost-prohibitive? Is that the allure of the Valkyrie; factory ammo?
Otherwise, the mini M16-style extractor can be modified some to grip a smaller diameter rim. A friend of mine uses a .223 Rem Howa Mini to shoot his .30 Carbine-based wildcat (.018" difference in rim diameter).
Is handloading in Norway cost-prohibitive? Is that the allure of the Valkyrie; factory ammo?
Otherwise, the mini M16-style extractor can be modified some to grip a smaller diameter rim. A friend of mine uses a .223 Rem Howa Mini to shoot his .30 Carbine-based wildcat (.018" difference in rim diameter).
Well, besides from the the 224 Valkyrie, the 22PPC is the only one of the ones you mention that is available for reloading here, I can not find any brass for the others. The 224 Valkyrie seems like a "mini 6.5 creedmoor" to me, I am mostly interested in that one. 22 PPC is more "Short-Fat" so I wonder how it will feed from a magazine, can it get more easily jammed than the 224 Valkyrie?
22 PPC
22 PPC
If you start with the Howa mini action, I can't think of a reason why you would go through the effort to change the bolt face to go .224 Valkyrie unless it was to get factory ammo. Get a 6.5 Grendel mini action and handload for the 22 grendel or 22PPC. It is better than the .224 Valkyrie.
The Grendel/PPC cases feed fine out of a magazine. Check out this site for many wildcat variations of the 6.5 Grendel in 6mm and .223. http://6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo.html
I have a mini howa ready to get rebarreled into 22 grendel as soon as the barrel gets here.
Thanks for the info.
I think I am going to wait and see what bolt rifles that may appear in the next year, hopefully Howa makes a mini-action in 224 Valkyrie.
So I don't have to rebuild I hope. I also hope that Bergara may launch a 224V bolt gun..... hopefully a HMR, it has an excellent stock as well.
Savage did announce a 110 Prairie Hunter in 224 Valkyrie, but I can not find any info about it on their webpage.... Is it abandon ?
The stock on that one did look a bit "plastic" but not sure how stiff and steady it is ...... I like the MDT Oryx chassis look.
I think I am going to wait and see what bolt rifles that may appear in the next year, hopefully Howa makes a mini-action in 224 Valkyrie.
So I don't have to rebuild I hope. I also hope that Bergara may launch a 224V bolt gun..... hopefully a HMR, it has an excellent stock as well.
Savage did announce a 110 Prairie Hunter in 224 Valkyrie, but I can not find any info about it on their webpage.... Is it abandon ?
The stock on that one did look a bit "plastic" but not sure how stiff and steady it is ...... I like the MDT Oryx chassis look.
I don't think Howa will build out a new bolt just for the .224 Valkyrie. With the .223 rem bolt head they get three options, .223, 300, and 350 legend. With the Grendel bolt head they get the 6.5 Grendel and 7.62 x 39 out of it. The Valkyrie is not nearly as popular as any one of the cartridges I mentioned already, and it doesn't have the benefit of any other cartridges that would piggyback the bolt head size. Given all that, frankly, I don't expect anyone to build a .224 Valkyrie bolt gun because the tooling and production cost bring nothing else to the table. The possible exception is Savage. Federal and Savage are owned by the same conglomerate, and partnered some on the Valkyrie I think. But, if it hasn't come out from them, it could easily die on the vine, as the saying goes.
.22 PPC should feed as well as or better than the standard Howa 6.5 Grendel offering. It should be plenty reliable with a center-feed magazine too.
In the past, now discontinued, the Mini was chambered in .204 Ruger as well as .222 Remington. Next year they might offer Hornady's .243/6mm ARC or whatever the SAAMI-approved 6PPC rehash is, but perhaps not. Howa already has the .375" and .450" bolt faces. I'm not sure they'll be very receptive to adding more cartridges that are not using one of those two case heads. I suspect that their profit margins are pretty thin on a USD$400 rifle. Offering popular cartridges ensures that they sell.
In the past, now discontinued, the Mini was chambered in .204 Ruger as well as .222 Remington. Next year they might offer Hornady's .243/6mm ARC or whatever the SAAMI-approved 6PPC rehash is, but perhaps not. Howa already has the .375" and .450" bolt faces. I'm not sure they'll be very receptive to adding more cartridges that are not using one of those two case heads. I suspect that their profit margins are pretty thin on a USD$400 rifle. Offering popular cartridges ensures that they sell.
Well, many makes this about a different bolt face into a bigger issue than it really is.
How much trouble is it for a factory to take the existing bolt and make a series run of bolts into 0.422" bolt face ?
To change one tool (or CNC lathe setting) in the production ? They do it all the time when making the 223REM bolt and 6.5 Grendel bolt.
A different barrel with a different chamber, well .... not a big issue either. As they do it all the time with other cartridges.
This is not a production issue as I see it, it is only about if they can sell a lot of them. I think they would if they just released such a version.
The internet is full of dudes building custom 224 Valkyrie bolt rifles. But that is a bit expensive if one should first buy a rifle in 223REM, remove the factory barrel and put in a brand new one for 224 Valkyrie, open up the bolt face, change the stock etc.
In Norway it is problems building one from parts, if you can get a new Rem 700 SA receiver (expensive, $600-700) from Brownells. New barrel ($700), stock (MDT Oryx $600). It gets very expensive, and a lot of paperwork with applications etc. because of strict laws regarding gun parts.
https://gundigest.com/rifles/224-valkyrie-rifle-building-a-small-bore-precision-bolt-action
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/224-valkyrie-bolt-gun-testing-review.6935618/
What about Mossberg MPV LR in 224 Valkyrie ? Some say that the Mossberg MPV is low quality (and they don't like it). I have never seen one, so I can't tell.
https://www.mossberg.com/product/mvp-lr-28035/
Length Of Pull is way too short for me though, but one can probably make a spacer and insert. Too bad the barrel is 22", I would prefer a 24".
How much trouble is it for a factory to take the existing bolt and make a series run of bolts into 0.422" bolt face ?
To change one tool (or CNC lathe setting) in the production ? They do it all the time when making the 223REM bolt and 6.5 Grendel bolt.
A different barrel with a different chamber, well .... not a big issue either. As they do it all the time with other cartridges.
This is not a production issue as I see it, it is only about if they can sell a lot of them. I think they would if they just released such a version.
The internet is full of dudes building custom 224 Valkyrie bolt rifles. But that is a bit expensive if one should first buy a rifle in 223REM, remove the factory barrel and put in a brand new one for 224 Valkyrie, open up the bolt face, change the stock etc.
In Norway it is problems building one from parts, if you can get a new Rem 700 SA receiver (expensive, $600-700) from Brownells. New barrel ($700), stock (MDT Oryx $600). It gets very expensive, and a lot of paperwork with applications etc. because of strict laws regarding gun parts.
https://gundigest.com/rifles/224-valkyrie-rifle-building-a-small-bore-precision-bolt-action
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/224-valkyrie-bolt-gun-testing-review.6935618/
What about Mossberg MPV LR in 224 Valkyrie ? Some say that the Mossberg MPV is low quality (and they don't like it). I have never seen one, so I can't tell.
https://www.mossberg.com/product/mvp-lr-28035/
Length Of Pull is way too short for me though, but one can probably make a spacer and insert. Too bad the barrel is 22", I would prefer a 24".
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Sure, for production, it is generally not difficult to make a bolt face hold a shell .020" different. In reality though, it's not really that simple. Someone will have to program the machines to perform that operation differently plus the time to prove the program does what it should. Someone's going to eat that cost. If Howa made a thousand that were out of spec, they'd lose money on the deal. It probably requires a retool to make a different magazine/spring/follower and there are likely corporate/book keeping/tax issues about maintaining a duplication of part numbers and inventory. It's not that they can't, it might just be too big a PITA.
So far as I know, Legacy Sports International is not a manufacturer. They're an importer. I wager they contract Howa and Hogue and other manufacturers to produce things in batches. If you order 10,000 of one thing you get a different price than if you order 3,333 of one, 3,333 of another and the remainder of something else. Again, with thin profit margins, they might not gamble on the Valkyrie. Besides the 6.8mm SPC, what other cartridge is made with the .422" bolt face? 10mm Auto/.40 S&W/357 Sig? Certainly not the original .25/.30/.32 Remington.
If the expense and paperwork are so costly in Norway, what does a .224 Valkyrie offer that a .223 Rem or .223 Rem Ackley Improved doesn't? Can you have a .224V made in the USA and import it as a complete rifle instead of assembling one there piecemeal? How do you feel about the .22 Nosler? I believe it has even more case capacity than the PPC/Grendels do, but uses the .375" bolt face.
So far as I know, Legacy Sports International is not a manufacturer. They're an importer. I wager they contract Howa and Hogue and other manufacturers to produce things in batches. If you order 10,000 of one thing you get a different price than if you order 3,333 of one, 3,333 of another and the remainder of something else. Again, with thin profit margins, they might not gamble on the Valkyrie. Besides the 6.8mm SPC, what other cartridge is made with the .422" bolt face? 10mm Auto/.40 S&W/357 Sig? Certainly not the original .25/.30/.32 Remington.
If the expense and paperwork are so costly in Norway, what does a .224 Valkyrie offer that a .223 Rem or .223 Rem Ackley Improved doesn't? Can you have a .224V made in the USA and import it as a complete rifle instead of assembling one there piecemeal? How do you feel about the .22 Nosler? I believe it has even more case capacity than the PPC/Grendels do, but uses the .375" bolt face.
Well, the 223REM does not offer any easy way of loading 80-90 grains bullets, it takes either a rework of the chamber throat to be able to set long bullets far enough out to be able to fill the case with enough powder. Case capacity is less, so I will not have the velocity I can achieve with the 224 V.
Simulation of 223 REM and Hodgdon Leverevolution powder with Berger 85.5 grains bullet in GRT, with C.O.L = 2.2835" in a 24" barrel:
Notice bullet seating depth (0.6433")
Same simulation with 224 Valkyrie, same bullet, same C.O.L, but more powder:
Seating depth is 0.4835"
Pressure is about the same.
Velocity is superior in the 224 Valkyrie.
22. Nosler might be a good choise, yes. Not sure if that cartridge will last though.....
Only Norma makes brass for the 22 PPC, if they discontinue that case the rifle have to be rebuilt to another cartridge. I am not willing to bet on 22 PPC.
224 Valkyrie seems to be the way to go, as manufacturers are now offering a lot of AR-15 guns in that caliber, this cartridge will not dissapear in the future in my believe. So many auto-guns (AR-15 style) out there already in this caliber for them to discontinue this cartridge.
Simulation of 223 REM and Hodgdon Leverevolution powder with Berger 85.5 grains bullet in GRT, with C.O.L = 2.2835" in a 24" barrel:
Notice bullet seating depth (0.6433")
Same simulation with 224 Valkyrie, same bullet, same C.O.L, but more powder:
Seating depth is 0.4835"
Pressure is about the same.
Velocity is superior in the 224 Valkyrie.
22. Nosler might be a good choise, yes. Not sure if that cartridge will last though.....
Only Norma makes brass for the 22 PPC, if they discontinue that case the rifle have to be rebuilt to another cartridge. I am not willing to bet on 22 PPC.
224 Valkyrie seems to be the way to go, as manufacturers are now offering a lot of AR-15 guns in that caliber, this cartridge will not dissapear in the future in my believe. So many auto-guns (AR-15 style) out there already in this caliber for them to discontinue this cartridge.
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If you really have your heart set on a Valkyrie bolt action, the options are getting slim. Savage has stopped producing them and Mossberg appears to be heading the same way. Those were the only mass production bolt rifles I know of. Custom you can still get, not sure what is available in Norway. Zermatt/bighorn arms is about the only action manufacturer that offers an action with an off the shelf bolt face. Northland shooters supply here in the US is a place that carries it. I doubt they will go thru the trouble to export, but it would give a local gunsmith a place to start. Both of mine are AR based, but I love the idea of a bolt rifle in this caliber. Good luck, Gary
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