Is there anything crazy happening after 1,000 yards? Going to try a mile in the next few months.

[SanPatHogger]

I've been to 1,000 yards 3 times. One of the 3 times we never saw where our bullets went, pretty sure the wind got us. I've got a target backer about 8 feet wide. No berms to see splash, sometimes we see splash in the dirt in front of the target if we come up a little short. Working on a target camera so we don't have to drive back and forth. The shooting will most likely be done at night when it's real calm.
Any suggestions, hints, tips or what to look out for at distances past 1,000? Shooting 115s from a 243. Buddy has a 6.5cm with a couple different loads.

 

[brianf]

if you are not seeing your impacts at 1k...why would waste more money on ammo past 1k

you should start by setting up some targets ar 5,6,7,8,900 etc. and learn whats happening

right now you dont know if its:
ammo
optics
shooting skill
environmentals / wind

its fun to shoot "far", but if your not hitting anything what the point

 

[Olen_4504]

I think you should work on your hit/miss ratio at 1000 before even thinking about a mile.

1,000y is not difficult at all. If you have all your data correct and can halfway read wind you should be hitting a fair sized target with a high success rate.

Sounds like you have some work to do

 

[Taylorbok]

If you can't see your misses at 1000 what makes you think your going to be able to see at a mile?
Being able to read the wind is what makes a good shooter, anyone can pull the trigger.
Realistically the big 30's are the starting point for hitting at a mile reliably.

 

[Precision Underground]

What they said. 1k should not be super hard or elusive if you’re ready to shoot a mile without needing a lot of luck. What kind of velocity does a 115 from a 243 have at 1000 and 1700 yards?

 

[brianf]

Add to the above

Spotting a little 6mm is almost impossible at times at those distances.

 

[acudaowner]

miles maybe further . send pics back of your mile or 1k range trip

 

[SanPatHogger]

2 out of three times at 1,000 we were on the carboard backer with our first shots and the adjusted. With no berms and shooting in the dark if we are off the edge by an inch, shoot over the target or shots land short of the flashlights we have nothing to correct off of.
At the place we shoot we can set up the target and walk to 100 yards to check zero, then drive a few hundred and shoot again, then drive further...
I've had times when I was on with the 22 at 50, 100, 200, 300 and then at 400 yards the wind switched and we were totall off a car hood.
At 1,000 I've shot a 3 shot group the size of my open hand. my buddy has shot about the same.
I trued up the velocity on GeoBallistics. Says 2,741 at 100 yards, 1,522 at 1,000 yards, 964 at 1,750. Looks to go subsonic just before 1,400 yards.
I guess thats one of my questions, what is going to happen to a 115gr 6mm Berger VLD Hunting bullet when it transitions? I've read a lot about bullets keyholing or just scattering after going subsonic.
I guess the only way to find out is to go see. Just wondering what others have seen.
Anything past 1,000 is pushing our personal best. One of my goals for 2023 is to make hits at a mile. I would really like to hit a 24 inch steel circle.

Also, If we are able to hit anything past 1,000 I will put up pictures. If we don't... I'll at least let you guys know if our target camera works.

 

[SanPatHogger]

View attachment 8074801
miles maybe further . send pics back of your mile or 1k range trip

I'm pretty sure I have posted this picture before. This is at 1,000.

 

[hafejd30]

2 out of three times at 1,000 we were on the carboard backer with our first shots and the adjusted. With no berms and shooting in the dark if we are off the edge by an inch, shoot over the target or shots land short of the flashlights we have nothing to correct off of.
At the place we shoot we can set up the target and walk to 100 yards to check zero, then drive a few hundred and shoot again, then drive further...
I've had times when I was on with the 22 at 50, 100, 200, 300 and then at 400 yards the wind switched and we were totall off a car hood.
At 1,000 I've shot a 3 shot group the size of my open hand. my buddy has shot about the same.
I trued up the velocity on GeoBallistics. Says 2,741 at 100 yards, 1,522 at 1,000 yards, 964 at 1,750. Looks to go subsonic just before 1,400 yards.
I guess thats one of my questions, what is going to happen to a 115gr 6mm Berger VLD Hunting bullet when it transitions? I've read a lot about bullets keyholing or just scattering after going subsonic.
I guess the only way to find out is to go see. Just wondering what others have seen.
Anything past 1,000 is pushing our personal best. One of my goals for 2023 is to make hits at a mile. I would really like to hit a 24 inch steel circle.

At that distance it will curl up and die

 

[Dethinboots]

I get your desire to go on to the next thing after attaining 1000. After I hit 1k I would scale up little by little until I hit 1500 consistently. That itch happened and I had to go for a mile. They conditions had to be super dry to see splash because I was using a caliber anemic at those distances. Out of the 30+ rounds I burned on that endeavor I was able to connect 3 times. I think it was way more luck than skill and is about the same thing as ego lifting at the gym.

 

[308pirate]

I've been to 1,000 yards 3 times. One of the 3 times we never saw where our bullets went, pretty sure the wind got us. I've got a target backer about 8 feet wide. No berms to see splash, sometimes we see splash in the dirt in front of the target if we come up a little short. Working on a target camera so we don't have to drive back and forth. The shooting will most likely be done at night when it's real calm.
Any suggestions, hints, tips or what to look out for at distances past 1,000? Shooting 115s from a 243. Buddy has a 6.5cm with a couple different loads.

Since you have an 8 ft wide backer, what kind of group size were you able to see at 1000 yards? How big is your actual target?

What kind of groups are you capable of with your rifle and ammo at 500 yards? At 300 yards?

How do you know the wind is the reason why you can't hit shit at 1000 yards?

And why are you shooting at night?

But you're ready to push on farther.........

 

[SanPatHogger]

Since you have an 8 ft wide backer, what kind of group size were you able to see at 1000 yards? How big is your actual target?

What kind of groups are you capable of with your rifle and ammo at 500 yards? At 300 yards?

How do you know the wind is the reason why you can't hit shit at 1000 yards?

And why are you shooting at night?

But you're ready to push on farther.........

We do not have a dirt berm to spot misses, so we put up a big backer.
I don't know that I've shot at 300 o 500. We went from 100 to 200, skipped to 400 and when we realised our dope was on we went to 1,000. Weve had hits at 1,000. The reason we know it was wind... Because we hit way to the side the first night, but elevation was correct. Also had hits on our 3rd night out.
If you scroll up a little bit...... There is a picture of 3 shots the size of my hand, And I am not Andre the Giant.
My buddy has kids, and he's raising them good. So he's at home with them till they go to bed, then he comes out here to shoot and chase hogs.
Yes, after hitting at a yardage with a coma I want to keep going. I just want to see what my personal best can be.

 

[TripleBull]

At 400, I'd expect groups only slightly larger (MOA) than at 100. I'd expect to be able to nail the bull at 400, wind or not. At 1000, I'd expect groups only slightly larger than the rifle/ammo shoots at 400. I'd expect to be able to compensate for wind at 1000 and nail the bull. Especially for your limitations, I would get 1000 fully sorted out and you might have to go back to 400 to get that done. Wind is the crux, so you need to be able to deal with it.

After 1000 is simple for you, then consider 1200. Drop variation due to ammo ES is really going to kick in for a small caliber projectile beyond 1000, as is difficulty of understanding the wind call. You need to optimize your visibility. Whether it's convenient or not, shooting in good light is common sense. Get the target low to the ground to raise the odds of seeing short shots. Don't spend hours tossing lead over the top. Be systematic and learn to see your misses and call wind.

 

[jackmarchese]

I hit a 2428 yard 3x3 steel target with a stock Ruger precision 6.5 Creedmoor over at Hawks Double Mountain ranch (HDMR) the other day.

I use factory loaded ammo only. The Berger LRHT ammo is the only off-the-shelf ammo that works for me. They are stable bullets and with mild wind (2-8mph), I was able to walk in my shots. It only took me 9 shots at 2428 yards.

Seeing dirt splash was essential. HDMR did a good job keeping the target areas weed whacked.

I also used Caldwell 'Flash Bang' LED shot indicators. They worked well and are only $30 per unit. Similar to Magnetospeed T1000, they have velcro hook and loop back pads.

 

[MilOA]

I hit a 2428 yard 3x3 steel target with a stock Ruger precision 6.5 Creedmoor over at Hawks Double Mountain ranch (HDMR) the other day.

I use factory loaded ammo only. The Berger LRHT ammo is the only off-the-shelf ammo that works for me. They are stable bullets and with mild wind (2-8mph), I was able to walk in my shots. It only took me 9 shots at 2428 yards.

Seeing dirt splash was essential. HDMR did a good job keeping the target areas weed whacked.

I also used Caldwell 'Flash Bang' LED shot indicators. They worked well and are only $30 per unit. Similar to Magnetospeed T1000, they have velcro hook and loop back pads.

was the bullet tumbling? using Berger's calculator, the round was subsonic at 2000yards. Another 428yds and it was less than 500fps. Looks like the new Flash bangs are really sensitive and must be really bright.

 

[jackmarchese]

was the bullet tumbling? using Berger's calculator, the round was subsonic at 2000yards. Another 428yds and it was less than 500fps. Looks like the new Flash bangs are really sensitive and must be really bright.

No tumbling and yes, the bullet was subsonic a long way. Conditions were such that I remember terminal velocity was ~900 fps (99 deg F, relative humidity 26%, density altitude 5030 ft, muzzle velocity 2730 fps; I held 41.7 mils). However, I've learned not to be concerned with subsonic status. And yes, the Caldwell units have worked well without fail, thus far.

1. The Berger twist rate calc shows my Berger bullet was stable in this environment (gyroscopic stability). https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/.

2. Though I am new to this shooting hobby and initially heard the rationale for "tumbling", I don't believe that type of dynamic occurs for 'stable' "today's technology" bullets. See this video for a reasonable explanation (starts at 5:30 mark).
My Kestrel 5700 elite shows me that my drop increases at a quicker rate the farther I shoot, but as the video explains it will still come down twisting as it was designed, regardless of the bullet fps decay.

My personal evidence: I can "walk in" my shots without seeing unreasonable variation in my shots. Once I get within a target or 2 of my elevation, I trust my elevation. I do adjust for elevation, but this is due to my rifle barrel muzzle velocity variation (as the barrel gets hotter my mv jumps around). So, I will hold under a bit if I see my mv getting higher than normal. I shoot with my Magnetospeed v3 chronograph. (This is key for me). I also try to let the barrel cool down after every 10+ shots.

3. I use the Bergers LRHTs because they have the highest BCs and best consistency (Hornady doesn't work as well for my set up and other branded factory loaded ammo takes up too much of my elevation). I will max out at 2720 yds unless I throw more money at it...40 MOA rail to use all of my Vortex Viper PST elevation (21.5 mils), an Eratac adjustable mount (+20 mils), and 10 mil more reticle holdover.

4. Being able to see my misses via dirt splash and wind have been the biggest deterrents.

I have spent this summer getting better at my shooting and trusting my data. 1760, 1860, 2008, 2278, and now 2428 yards achieved thus far. I have enjoyed shooting at Colemans Creek (Ellerbe, NC), Spearpoint ranch (Barnard, KS), NRA Whittington (Raton, NM), Camp Atterbury, IN, Rebel Ridge Outfitters (Syracuse, KS), and Hawks Double Mountain ranch (Rotan, TX). If others are present, I have been watching, listening, and asking lots of questions. I will have one more opportunity this summer to go a bit farther (2650-2720?), but only because I have run out of elevation. (If I decide to spend for a Nightforce scope or wedge prism, or a Tacomhq Charlie Tarac, then I will probably move up to a better elr caliber)

This internet doc was the most important reading to help me understand what factors were most important to elr success. https://kestrelinstruments.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/231. It helped me inform my spending decisions for stuff that made a difference.

 

[cameljockey230]

was the bullet tumbling? using Berger's calculator, the round was subsonic at 2000yards. Another 428yds and it was less than 500fps. Looks like the new Flash bangs are really sensitive and must be really bright.

Here is a picture of the new flash bangs in my reloading room. I am holding the light and the green flash is about 6-7 feet away.

To the original poster.
Go out to a mile and give it a try. We don't shoot a mile here because it's boring to just bang the gong all day.
The biggest hurdle is always spotting your misses.
Alot of shooters are shooting on grassy flat ground that is manicured and you get to see for hundreds of yards in all directions. When we shoot you better be within 1-2 mils are you don't see anything.
I shot competitive benchrest for over a decade and have never seen 400 yard groups at 1000 yards ever. I don't consider one group the norm.

 

[SanPatHogger]

I have not had internet at the house for about a month so I did not update this 2 weeks ago when it happened.
Sunday evening 2 weeks ago I went out, the wind was low and really steady, almost no gusting at all. I had to shoot some odd distances because the cotton and sorghum plants have not been plowed under yet. I shot at 300 and then moved back to 870. I could not see the target from 900 to 1,200 because of a tree line and cotton bales. So the next spot I could see was at 1,300. I shot and then went and checked the target and was low right. Went back to 1,300 and measured my corrections, ran truing velocity in the calculator and added a little wind to match conditions. group size was about 10 inches, so I was pretty happy. Instead of shooting again at 1,300 I drove to 1,500 but was blocked by cotton. Kept driving till I had a clear lane and it just happened to be at 1,760. I couldn't see from prone so I moved the truck so I could use the front hitch basket as a bench. Loading a bipod correctly is easy enough now, but loading a hitch basket was new. I put my weight into it to take out all the slop, then got behing the gun, dry fired a few times and kneeling behind the basket actually felt really stable. I fired 5 rounds and figured I would not have anything to see, so I went to pack up my targets. Cardboard backer was empty. Went to pick up my hood and found a single hole in it. I do not know where the others missed. But that one went into my personal record books.

 

[bulletbluesky]

Most long, streamlined bullets are affected by passage through the transonic zone. Yes, they will not completelly lose stability and tumble (except in some rare cases) but increased yawing and pitching motion after the passage happens more often than not, and it takes some time for the bullet to regain its dynamic stability. Moreover, the G7 standard drag function zero-yaw ballistic coefficient determined from supersonic measurements for given bullet may be quite different in subsonic region. Therefore, crude app calcs based on single G7 BC can lead to significant errors for ELR bullet performance where bullet final velocity drops below 0.8 Mach. Only drag function suitable for given bullet, obtained from real world tests, can provide acceptable confidence. To illustrate this further: in some resources (NRA handbook, wiki articles etc) you might find maximum range of some riffle cartridges. For 5.56 x 45 mm NATO (M855, 62 grain bullet) the claimed maximum range is about 3800 yards (MV=3100 ft/s) in standard atmosphere. However, such max range could never be attained for M885 round on Yuma prooving grounds firings where bullets could be tracked by radars in their very long trajectory. Obviously max range 3800 yards cited in many resources is just a calculated one. It is more than 300 yards overestimated.