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Gunsmithing Is there danger in a faster twist?

navy1942

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Minuteman
Sep 7, 2011
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I have used the hide to learn many things about rifles, projectiles, accurate and consistent reloading and especially the myriad opinions on the best ELR weapon. So, after many months of reading I am about to jump into my first custom build and it will be large bore. I've set my ambitions on the Barrett .416 - my reasons are many, but underneath, it rests on what I think it is capable of if the right bullet is designed. Which leads to my question preocess (really multiple questions); barrel twist rate is mostly about creating enough spin to keep the projectile stable during flight. Longer bullets needing a faster twist than short bullets. But why not make them all as fast as metallurgically possible? Can you have a twist that is to fast? Is there a danger of an explosive pressure spike with a .416 barrett going down tube that has, for example, a 1:8 twist? I just don't understand the physics, and the choices people make don't always make sense to me. For example why a 1:9.35 instead of just 1:9 for a .338LM? Why do all .50 BMG seem to have a 1:15 twist?
I really need some education gentlemen! Thank you in advance.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

I am not a expert in this area, I can add this however.

22-250 + 1/8 twist + 40 grain V-max @ 4100 FPS = your buddys fender missing!

The bullet exploads when it leave the crown and does a good job cutting fenders off.

To your question, it comes down to accuracy. There are points on both side of ideal accuracy that are too slow or too fast.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

Exploded? As in boom! ? A hollow point or other soft nose? Or FMJ that disintegrated due to over spin? Regardless, WOW!
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: navy1942</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exploded? As in boom! ? A hollow point or other soft nose? Or FMJ that disintegrated due to over spin? Regardless, WOW!</div></div>

It was a poly tip hollow point.

Hornady explained that thier thin skined varmint bullets can't take the RPM of a 1/8 at that speed.

The day prior I couldent find 4 out of 8 shots at 100 yards. While it was not apparent at the time, they never made it
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

As has been pointed out already bullets can disintegrate if spun too quickly.

Another bad effect of too much spin is it will induce a larger amount of spin drift at longer ranges.

It also minutely lowers velocity as more energy goes into spinning the bullet and therefore less goes towards propulsion. Only talking a few fps though and other variables have much greater effect.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

Well that is good news... I think. At least it doesn't cause a pressure spike and go BOOM in your face. Can I assume that a solid wouldn't come apart? Spin drift is something I hadn't even considered, since I am thinking hypothetical regarding a bullet that has yet to be designed. Do you think spin drift for a .416 round that is *spitballing here for an imaginary projectile* a long 450gn to 500gn solid coming out of a 30bbl with 1:8 twist at 3100fps, be very bad at about 2500yds? As you can tell, I've been doing a lot of "what if" in my head.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

I don't know about the big bores, but I've heard a bit about bullets coming a part in 1:7 223s.

Up on inquiring seems they are always using bullets built for Hornet velocities.

I've shot tons of Sierra and Hornady 52-53 grn match bulles out of my 1:7 White Oak without any problem what so ever.

I don't know about excessive "spin drift" I only have shot it to 1000 and then I use 80 SMKs.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

Have you ever played with a toy gyroscope. If you spin one very fast and set it on its stand it will hold its position but it will be jittery from minor balance imperfections. If you tilt it, it will precess rapidly with a small radius on the upper axis. As it slows down it will stand up straight and run smoothly. As it further slows down it start to wobble and fall off it's stand. Bullets are a lot like that except that the external force on the spinning object is mostly atmospheric drag instead of gravity. The force of gravity is typically 1-2 percent of the drag force and for a horizontal shot they're perpendicular. To fly with least drag a bullet must fly nose first into the air it's passing through. If spun to fast it won't align into the air quickly. If spun too slow it will become very unstable and tumble. Air drag is not only a function of the shape of the bullet and it's velocity, but also of air density. Cold dry low altitude air is denser than warm moist high altitude air at at the same barometric pressure. There is no "best" twist rate for any particular cartridge unless you look at all the factors. Fortunately there is a fairly wide range of spin rate, maybe 30%, for a given bullet which works pretty well. Choosing too low of spin rate will limit how long (usually heavier) bullets you can shoot. Choosing too high of spin rate can cause the problems of bullet blow up and excess spin drift, and (maybe) limit accuracy.
When a bullet is fired it's ratio of forward velocity to rotational velocity is fixed by the barrel twist rate. Once free to fly that ratio is not maintained. Air drag slows both but not necessarily equally. Usually forward velocity reduces faster than rotational velocity. As a bullet approaches transonic velocities drag increases, so it's stability is reduced. The spin rate will be lower then when fired but how much slower is not predicted by any commercial ballistics software I'm aware of. The only way I know of to predict how accurate a particular rifle/cartridge/bullet will be past it's transonic range is with shooting tests. Ballistics programs aren't of much help.

Heres an interesting website:
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/
Is's a description of how bullets really behave traveling though the atmosphere. . It may give the impression you can never again hit a target. Don't worry the effects are real, but usually small.

So why are specific twist rates selected?

1. Because they work well for most shooters. That's usually from experience of previous rifles and bullets in the hands of military, hunters, and target shooters.

2. Because shooters think a particular twist works well for a given bullet and the rifle maker's marketing has determined it will optimize sales. That's why you see more even number twist barrels than odd, more whole numbers than fractional, more fractional than decimal, and in the US, definitely more in inches than metric. In the case of the 9.35 twist for 338 LM, probably just to be exotic and mysterious. The 338 LM was designed before 300 grain VLD's existed. No one twist is optimum for all atmospheric conditions. I saw a post recently supposedly quoting a barrel maker that "8 inch twist is good for any 6.5mm" I'm skeptical.

3. Because a ballistics expert calculated that a particular twist is optimum at least for one application.

4. 50 BMG (also 1911 pistol) Because John Browning designed it. It works. Why change it? (same as #1 actually)

 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

The bullet exploding is due to the centrifugal forces. 3000 fps on a 1:9.35 is a bullet spinning at ~231,000 rpm. That works out to around 508,000 G's at the jacket of the bullet. That's a lot.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

Thank you Lou Boyd.
Your explanation is very helpful. The lack of scientific exactitude makes me feel better about my questions.
Now if I can just get back on track with my .416 quest, and hope someone decides to design the best .416 projectile before I finish obtaining parts!
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: navy1942</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do all .50 BMG seem to have a 1:15 twist?</div></div>The gyroscopic stability factors, at standard and reduced muzzle velocities, of M33 Ball, M8 API, and Raufoss MK211 (inert) were measured by the military in 1988 fired out of a 45" barrel and a 29" barrel. All three bullets, from both barrel lengths, at both velocities, were more stable than necessary out of a 1 in 15 twist. A slower twist would have, theoretically, obtained a 20% improvement in accuracy.

Note that as the specific gravity of the metal used for solids decreases and the bullet gets lighter and the muzzle velocity rises, the ideal twist rate decreases from 1 in 15.__ to 1 in 14.2
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

My prairie dog rifle in 223 rem has a 1:8 twist and my backup also in 223 rem has a 1:12 twist. Using very close to the same speeds and Speer TNT bullets the 1:8 does have better splat than the slower one. The dogs tend to turn into a snooty mess. The slower one tends to give more style points in flying dogs.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

I don't know scientifically, but I can say that I believe too fast of a twist can also effect accuracy. You will see it many times that on the big bore hand turned bullets, that there is a phenomenon that they produce less accuracy at closer distances, and then improve as the bullets 'settle down' into it's flight path. I think this is because the bullet is over twisted for shorter distances to achieve longer range accuracy. I have heard it said that you can't over-stabilize a bullet as long as it will hold together, but I'm not sold on that theory.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

Those bullets that cut off the fender, at 4100fps and 1 in 8, have about 370,000 rpm on them. I'm sure they are very thin skinned bullets but that is a lot of rpm. A high speed video of that would be cool.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

There is a possibility of overstabilization but I've never seen that be the case any time. I want to actually test this one day but more than likely will be done with the .223 caliber.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know scientifically, but I can say that I believe too fast of a twist can also effect accuracy. You will see it many times that on the big bore hand turned bullets, that there is a phenomenon that they produce less accuracy at closer distances, and then improve as the bullets 'settle down' into it's flight path. I think this is because the bullet is over twisted for shorter distances to achieve longer range accuracy. I have heard it said that you can't over-stabilize a bullet as long as it will hold together, but I'm not sold on that theory.
</div></div>

Not saying youre wrong, but your theory goes against the concept that linear velocity decays faster than angular velocity... As discussed by Litz and mentioned above, stability factor goes up with range.

That said, I can barely hold a 3" group at at 200 yards with my 1:12 TRG42 with 300smk @2750, but have shot 3/4" groups at 600 yards with the same rifle. There are theories about this being shooter error...but I dunno. It happens very, very consistently to me with that rifle. I'd love to understand why.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

Could be like the harmonics in a drive shaft, I've seen salt flat cars that the drive line gets rowdy at about 100 then smooths right out as they keep accelerating... Its worse on De-acceleration, so it would make sense to me that the bullets might cycle through a harmonic at close range then settle in as they slow down and drop below the RPM the harmonic occurs at.

FYI salt flat cars use as many as seven different lengths in sectional drive lines to fight this problem.

Probably totally unrelated but what the heck....

Dave
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not saying youre wrong, but your theory goes against the concept that linear velocity decays faster than angular velocity... As discussed by Litz and mentioned above, stability factor goes up with range.

That said, I can barely hold a 3" group at at 200 yards with my 1:12 TRG42 with 300smk @2750, but have shot 3/4" groups at 600 yards with the same rifle. There are theories about this being shooter error...but I dunno. It happens very, very consistently to me with that rifle. I'd love to understand why.</div></div>

I'm not saying I'm right either
laugh.gif


I'm basically just saying that there must be something more to it all, and saying I don't buy the theory that you can't over-stabilize a bullet, this is only based on observation and 2nd hand information, nothing substantiated.
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not saying youre wrong, but your theory goes against the concept that linear velocity decays faster than angular velocity... As discussed by Litz and mentioned above, stability factor goes up with range.

That said, I can barely hold a 3" group at at 200 yards with my 1:12 TRG42 with 300smk @2750, but have shot 3/4" groups at 600 yards with the same rifle. There are theories about this being shooter error...but I dunno. It happens very, very consistently to me with that rifle. I'd love to understand why.</div></div>

I'm not saying I'm right either
laugh.gif


I'm basically just saying that there must be something more to it all, and saying I don't buy the theory that you can't over-stabilize a bullet, this is only based on observation and 2nd hand information, nothing substantiated. </div></div>

I agree with that.

I dont understand all of the effects at play but it seems clear that there is a ideal twist rate given any load, bullet weight, length, Etc. Those who devolop loads tend to find these sweet spots through trial and error.

Stability must be based on a vast number of conditions, understanding the twist rate is just scratching the surface
 
Re: Is there danger in a faster twist?

The phenomena of reduced precision at close range and increased precision at long range might have something to do with harmonics and resonance frequency of the bullet.

At close range the bullet is overspun and there is a vibration that negatively impacts precision. As the rotational velocity bleeds off, the bullet enters the "sweet spot" of rotational velocity which improves precision, then ultimately slows down to fall out of that zone and become unstable.

The reason why the short range inaccuracy doesn't affect long range accuracy is because it is CONSISTENT for every bullet. If it's consistent then it can be precise.

I've seen pump drive shaft assemblies that ran smooth at a high RPM node , then vibrate at a middle RPM node and then smooth back out at a lower RPM node. Had nothing to due with shaft balance but was caused by the harmonics of the system.

That's my theory