Israel/iran

[SilentStalkr]

i don't know if it would be good or bad. obviously the ayatollah is not a good person, but could his replacement be worse?
i think they are thinking more about lone wolf attacks in retaliation here.

Probably bad. Be like us taking out Hussein. He was a bad dude but he doesn’t seem to have been as people made him out to be. And whether he was good or bad one thing is for sure, he helped to keep some stability in that region. I’d argue that things have been exponentially worse than they would have been if we just kept him there. I think taking him out was a mistake. Only way it could be good is if you took out a lot of the main players at the same time and somehow moved civilized people in and kept control at the same time. But that’s sort of like nation building and you see where that’s gotten us. At this point, I say we just step out of everyone’s biz. But that’s not going to happen.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

If you're talking about the USS Liberty, that was unequivocally a deliberate act by Israel.

While folks endlessly bring up the Liberty...

Let's see... We should nuke Japan again over the Panay Incident.

Gas North Korea for the USS Pueblo.

Smart bomb China for the Hainan Island incident... Were they rammed our plane and then wouldn't give it back until they had dismantled it.

And certainly the Germans have not paid for the Lusitania yet... so we ought to firebomb dresden again.

Oh and let's not forget the Soviets shooting down KAL 007 and killing a US Congressman in the process (not that a Congressman was any great loss)

Then again The USS Vincennes shot down Iranian Flight 655...

The US Army Air Corps 'Accidentally' Bombed Switzerland about 75 times in WW2. Oops.

An FB111 Put a smart bomb through the window of the French Embassy in Tripoli in the '80s (I thought that showed some real style... since France would not let the US fly over its airspace to pummel Moammar's tents.)

Oh and I seem to remember we also put a smart bomb into the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Oops... I think we had to apologize for that one.

And there was that bad day in 1950 when USAF planes mistook a Soviet Airforce Base for a North Korean air force base... and blew the shit out of it. That was kind of a big oops...

And who can forget the time we dropped three H-bombs on Spain, which exploded 1000 pounds each of conventional explosives, scattering a shit ton of Plutonium all over a fishing village... There was that. (Not to mention dropping one in South Carolina.) One safety away from turning a big chunk of Spain into a new Gulf... (Gulf of LeMay?) Same with South Carolina. That would have sucked!

Then there was the time that a guy with a wrench and no dummy cord on the socket almost turned Arkansas into a smoking hole.... Oops.

So... endlessly braying on about the Liberty is just stupid. In the Fog of War... stuff happens. Israel had NO reason to deliberatly attack a US ship as it was looking for US Assistance in the Six Day war... and deliberately attacking the Liberty would have jeopardized getting aid from LBJ. Moreover, the Liberty was an old US "Henry Kaiser" Liberty ship and hundreds had been sold surplus after WW2. They were used as tramp steamers and military ships and fishing boats all over the world. It was a lightly-disguised Intelligence-gathering ship... and easily mistaken for a number of the same types of ships being used by Egypt and other navies... Liberty did not look like a state-of-the-art U.S. Ship and was believed to be a threat. The 'old beat up' look of Liberty was part of its 'spy trawler' cover.

So while tragic... there is no basis for endlessly beating up Israel for the Liberty. We've been just as careless, reckless and accident-prone as anyone else has. Weapons are a dangerous business. Weapons in and around war zones... are inherently at risk. As are their crews. Sucked for the folks killed on Liberty. They were no less casualties of the Cold War than hundreds of others who served and defended and were in the line of fire when/where the Cold War went hot. Or when shit happened.

Sirhr

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I’ll say this. If we have to go to war with Iran. We need to whip them to a pulp and get the hell out. None of this long term, multi trillion dollar nation building/protective peace keeping efforts. With a big NO on nation building. Converting Muslims to a constitutional republic with democratic style voting is harder that herding a million cats through a 12 foot wide gate.

The only real way to rule a nation of multi muslim sects is to rule with a firm hand by a rather ruthless dictator. That’s the only thing those people understand. Those are some hard headed folks.

 

[kthomas]

While folks endlessly bring up the Liberty...

Let's see... We should nuke Japan again over the Panay Incident.

Gas North Korea for the USS Pueblo.

Smart bomb China for the Hainan Island incident... Were they rammed our plane and then wouldn't give it back until they had dismantled it.

And certainly the Germans have not paid for the Lusitania yet... so we ought to firebomb dresden again.

Oh and let's not forget the Soviets shooting down KAL 007 and killing a US Congressman in the process (not that a Congressman was any great loss)

Then again The USS Vincennes shot down Iranian Flight 655...

The US Army Air Corps 'Accidentally' Bombed Switzerland about 75 times in WW2. Oops.

An FB111 Put a smart bomb through the window of the French Embassy in Tripoli in the '80s (I thought that showed some real style... since France would not let the US fly over its airspace to pummel Moammar's tents.)

Oh and I seem to remember we also put a smart bomb into the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Oops... I think we had to apologize for that one.

And there was that bad day in 1950 when USAF planes mistook a Soviet Airforce Base for a North Korean air force base... and blew the shit out of it. That was kind of a big oops...

And who can forget the time we dropped three H-bombs on Spain, which exploded 1000 pounds each of conventional explosives, scattering a shit ton of Plutonium all over a fishing village... There was that. (Not to mention dropping one in South Carolina.) One safety away from turning a big chunk of Spain into a new Gulf... (Gulf of LeMay?) Same with South Carolina. That would have sucked!

Then there was the time that a guy with a wrench and no dummy cord on the socket almost turned Arkansas into a smoking hole.... Oops.

So... endlessly braying on about the Liberty is just stupid. In the Fog of War... stuff happens. Israel had NO reason to deliberatly attack a US ship as it was looking for US Assistance in the Six Day war... and deliberately attacking the Liberty would have jeopardized getting aid from LBJ. Moreover, the Liberty was an old US "Henry Kaiser" Liberty ship and hundreds had been sold surplus after WW2. They were used as tramp steamers and military ships and fishing boats all over the world. It was a lightly-disguised Intelligence-gathering ship... and easily mistaken for a number of the same types of ships being used by Egypt and other navies... Liberty did not look like a state-of-the-art U.S. Ship and was believed to be a threat. The 'old beat up' look of Liberty was part of its 'spy trawler' cover.

So while tragic... there is no basis for endlessly beating up Israel for the Liberty. We've been just as careless, reckless and accident-prone as anyone else has. Weapons are a dangerous business. Weapons in and around war zones... are inherently at risk. As are their crews. Sucked for the folks killed on Liberty. They were no less casualties of the Cold War than hundreds of others who served and defended and were in the line of fire when/where the Cold War went hot. Or when shit happened.

Sirhr

Israel is not a friend of the USA.

They are a leach that drags us into needless wars that are against US interests.

Fuck Israel and the Middle East.

 

[Baron23]

i don't know if it would be good or bad. obviously the ayatollah is not a good person, but could his replacement be worse?
i think they are thinking more about lone wolf attacks in retaliation here.

Netanyahu reveals Iran marked Trump as 'enemy number one' with assassination plot

Netanyahu reveals Iran attempted to assassinate both him and Trump, discusses Israel's strikes against Iran's nuclear program, and explains the "imminent threat."

www.foxnews.com

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Israel is not a friend of the USA.

They are a leach that drags us into needless wars that are against US interests.

Fuck Israel and the Middle East.

Nations don't have friends. They have interests. -- Churchill.

We have interests. And some of them lie in Israel.

Sirhr

 

[Maggot]

I remember when the US went to DEFCON 3 in ‘78 during the Yom Kippur War.
Things got really weird on my ship. We knew very little WTF was going on , (speaking for E-4 peons) This was 51 years ago.
Shit will never end over there until it REALLY ends

Thats pretty much it. The Israelites and now Israelis, have been fucking with that region since they crossed the Jordan River 35 centuries ago. God dispersed the Jews but the Zionists stole it back.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I remember when the US went to DEFCON 3 in ‘78 during the Yom Kippur War.
Things got really weird on my ship. We knew very little WTF was going on , (speaking for E-4 peons) This was 51 years ago.
Shit will never end over there until it REALLY ends

Guessing you mean 1973... Because that's when Yom Kippur happened.

And, yeah... about 50 years ago. That's the one where Israel almost used nukes. Sampson Option and the planes were loaded up.

Sirhr

 

[Maggot]

Nations don't have friends. They have interests. -- Churchill.

We have interests. And some of them lie in Israel.

Sirhr

To be more accurate, certain minority entities in DC, have vested interests in Israel. My only interest in Israel is to see them kicked off the land they stole. But even that interest is secondary to my personal safety and security here at home.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

To be more accurate, certain minority entities in DC, have vested interests in Israel. My only interest in Israel is to see them kicked off the land they stole. But even that interest is secondary to my personal safety and security here at home.

It's bigger than that... But it's still interests vs. friendships.

Back at the end of the Gulf War, General Sir Peter de la Billiere (the 2IC of the British forces and former commander of the Special Air Service as well as one of the finest combat soldiers of the 20th Century) said, quite rightly: "If Kuwait grew Carrots, we wouldn't give a damn."

That is the ME in a nutshell.

Sirhr

 

[Detroit_1]

 

[mosin46]

post # 402 Israel is not really any kind of reliable partner. they have been our Gurkhas because we let do what they want,which is building greater Israel and we guarantee their survival.
and forcing our "liberal" democracy on ME theocratic dictatorships (like Israel) has had a huge neg impact on our foreign policy. others have said that we really don't need the ME if our own energy policy wasn't self destructive. correct. wouldn't need a trillion $ navy to get oil from TX,AK etc. but then,our oil producing states don't control 80% of congress like Israel does. our MIC wouldn't have such foolproof stocks if we didn't need the army we have. a smaller one could handle our borders just fine,the navy our coasts.
you quote Churchill,one of the war mongers that got us into ww2. he was faithful to his empire. it was lost but he did believe that "spheres of influence" was the way to go. makes,or should make,perfect sense. US i w.hemisphere,China in Asia,Russia in Europe. us trying to control Europe and Asia is retarded. controlling our hemisphere is reasonable,doable and doesn't require foreign wars of choice. who gives a shit about Europe,ME or Asia. there is nothing there that we can't get here. Africa and the ME are crap shoots but ww3 over them doesn't make any sense. some accommodation or agreement could be reached about them with the other big boys.
the Liberty is a BFD. it was not an accidental friendly fire incident. those do occur for sure. the ones you mention don't really = deliberate attacks.
and no,i don't love Iran. i know they are an enemy and their proxies have killed Americans. i don't care if both countries are flattened. we just need to stay the F out of it.

 

[tightInThePants]

And certainly the Germans have not paid for the Lusitania yet... so we ought to firebomb dresden again.

Huh? I thought we sent those citizens to die on purpose so we could force the country into a war it didn't want to enter in order save ineffectual England, no? Didn't Germany take out literal ads telling people not to get on the ship?

What about the mail bombs that killed brits? Seems like something friends do. Glad we ended up finding our mailed presents before they could kill more Americans.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Huh? I thought we sent those citizens to die on purpose so we could force the country into a war it didn't want to enter in order save ineffectual England, no? Didn't Germany take out literal ads telling people not to get on the ship?

What about the mail bombs that killed brits? Seems like something friends do. Glad we ended up finding our mailed presents before they could kill more Americans.

Yeah, the Lusitania could be ruled fair ball by the umpires... Not that we sent them to die. But it probably had a hold full of gun cotton. So might have been legit target. That said, IIRC the U-Boat commander was punished on that one.

The bombing campaigns in the UK were pretty savage... culminating in the attempt on Maggie. Which would have blown half a hotel apart. Long, long delay fuse on that one.

The killing of Mountbatten, however, was dirty pool. Should have turned Belfast into a parking lot on that one.

Sirhr

 

[Tokay444]

Israel has only ever attacked the US and their interests.

Nations don't have friends. They have interests. -- Churchill.

We have interests. And some of them lie in Israel.

Sirhr

But… But… But… Our greatest ally. The incontinent boomer told me so.

 

[Maggot]

post # 402 Israel is not really any kind of reliable partner. they have been our Gurkhas because we let do what they want,which is building greater Israel and we guarantee their survival.
and forcing our "liberal" democracy on ME theocratic dictatorships (like Israel) has had a huge neg impact on our foreign policy. others have said that we really don't need the ME if our own energy policy wasn't self destructive. correct. wouldn't need a trillion $ navy to get oil from TX,AK etc. but then,our oil producing states don't control 80% of congress like Israel does. our MIC wouldn't have such foolproof stocks if we didn't need the armywe have. a smaller one could handle our borders just fine,the navy our coasts.
you quote Churchill,one of the war mongers that got us into ww2. he was faithful to his empire. it was lost but he did believe that "spheres of influence" was the way to go. makes,or should make,perfect sense. US i w.hemisphere,China in Asia,Russia in Europe. us trying to control Europe and Asia is retarded. controlling our hemisphere is reasonable,doable and doesn't require foreign wars of choice. who gives a shit about Europe,ME or Asia. there is nothing there that we can't get here. Africa and the ME are crap shoots but ww3 over them doesn't make any sense. some accommodation or agreement could be reached about them with the other big boys.
the Liberty is a BFD. it was not an accidental friendly fire incident. those do occur for sure. the ones you mention don't really = deliberate attacks.
and no,i don't love Iran. i know they are an enemy and their proxies have killed Americans. i don't care if both countries are flattened. we just need to stay the F out of it.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

post # 402 Israel is not really any kind of reliable partner. they have been our Gurkhas because we let do what they want,which is building greater Israel and we guarantee their survival.
and forcing our "liberal" democracy on ME theocratic dictatorships (like Israel) has had a huge neg impact on our foreign policy. others have said that we really don't need the ME if our own energy policy wasn't self destructive. correct. wouldn't need a trillion $ navy to get oil from TX,AK etc. but then,our oil producing states don't control 80% of congress like Israel does. our MIC wouldn't have such foolproof stocks if we didn't need the army we have. a smaller one could handle our borders just fine,the navy our coasts.
you quote Churchill,one of the war mongers that got us into ww2. he was faithful to his empire. it was lost but he did believe that "spheres of influence" was the way to go. makes,or should make,perfect sense. US i w.hemisphere,China in Asia,Russia in Europe. us trying to control Europe and Asia is retarded. controlling our hemisphere is reasonable,doable and doesn't require foreign wars of choice. who gives a shit about Europe,ME or Asia. there is nothing there that we can't get here. Africa and the ME are crap shoots but ww3 over them doesn't make any sense. some accommodation or agreement could be reached about them with the other big boys.
the Liberty is a BFD. it was not an accidental friendly fire incident. those do occur for sure. the ones you mention don't really = deliberate attacks.
and no,i don't love Iran. i know they are an enemy and their proxies have killed Americans. i don't care if both countries are flattened. we just need to stay the F out of it.

We'll have to respectfully disagree on this... Churchill got us into WW2? Well, he was certainly trying. But IIRC the Japs got us into WW2 and Hitler declared war on us first... Churchill was happy. But it was our economic embargo's against the Nips that got us into WW2.

The whole of Africa and the ME are shitholes. But they have resources we need. Or need to deny to our enemies. Remember, too, that our oil strategy has been to drain the world first. Keeping our vast reserves in the ground. And deny that oil to others.

And Israel has been our 'protectorate' for 80 years-ish... in large part because the US and the West failed to prevent 6 or so million of them from getting turned into air pollution. Now that sounds kind of academic here and now. But the US stood by and let it happen. Largely because bureaucracy and anti-semitism prevented any action pre-war. So the nation has had the guilt for a while. And in the post-war period, it was decided that the Jews needed a homeland. And that it should not be Germany (which was a real proposal) because Germany was needed as a bulwark against Stalin. Hey, Interests again.

So your points are all well-taken.

Though regarding Liberty... deliberate is a perception. Did they deliberately attack? Yes. But against a mistaken target. Oops. Fog of war. They thought it was an Egyptian ship. They had no motive for attacking the Liberty. In fact, they had every motivation to protect it. But fucked up. Bad. But they still fucked up. Noone said "Lets get this American Ship." Because that would have been stupid! And they are anything but Stupid, them hooknoses!

It's a good debate... but a lot of the arguments come down to... do you want to vilify Israel, or defend them. Me, I'll defend that we have an interest in being their 'friend' for now. For... interests. They have so far been more reliable than most over there. Lots of reasons to distrust them. Like Spy rings. Possible theft of nuclear material. Influence peddling at a massive level (though any more than Catholics or Wayne LaPierre?). And some acts that didn't help our foreign policy at times (settlement building, for example.) But in the big picture.... they have been 'less worse' than others.

And right now, I am hoping they turn the entire Iranian hierarchy into martyrs. So there is that. Saves us from having to do it and then get stuck with more "Nation Building" that we suck at and should never attempt.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[GreenGO Juan]

 

[Mr.BR]

Regime change wars for Israel , as soon as AQ took over Syria Israel could freely attack

Meanwhile

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

But it was our economic embargo's against the Nips that got us into WW2.

You nailed it.

Without steel and Oil, they had to do something, and give up China was not that something they were willing to do.

then get stuck with more "Nation Building" that we suck at and should never attempt.

You can't build a nation with artificially drawn, straight borders encompassing a land full of people who hate each other. At least we are not guilty of drawing the stupid borders but we are guilty of having VERY stupid people like Hillary Clinton who naively think they can. (and others such as Traitor John Kerry who always put personal gain and interest over everything else, including the lives and honor of brave American soldiers and sailors who died to gain him that advantage.) Both of whom along with a couple of presidents, one from each party, that really blew up the entire Middle East political situation.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You nailed it.

Without steel and Oil, they had to do something, and give up China was not that something they were willing to do.

You can't build a nation with artificially drawn, straight borders encompassing a land full of people who hate each other. At least we are not guilty of drawing the stupid borders but we are guilty of having VERY stupid people like Hillary Clinton who naively think they can. (and others such as Traitor John Kerry who always put personal gain and interest over everything else, including the lives and honor of brave American soldiers and sailors who died to gain him that advantage.) Both of whom along with a couple of presidents, one from each party, that really blew up the entire Middle East political situation.

Well, can blame Churchill and T.E. Lawrence in the Colonial Office c. 1920 for the borders in the M.E. Churchill had no clue and was an empire-loving bigot. T.E. Lawrence should have known better, but succumbed to expediency. Together, they drew the lines with no clue as to tribal history or 2,000 years of 'memory.' They stuck 'kings' in new kingdoms hundreds of miles away from their actual tribal lands.

U.S. has been stuck with that mess since. Not that we have done any better, really. That said, we were never in pursuit of empire. It's not really in our DNA despite what leftist college professor twat-waffles say. We are not an empire-seeking nation (well, OK, Teddy Roosevelt tried somewhat.)

Really, we are the Mrs. Kravitz of the planet. We can't keep our fucking noses out of everyone elses business and think that Jeffersonian democracy will work well in shitholes where "If Allah Wills It" is a higher calling.

Sirhr

 

[lariat]

 

[LuckyLuke80]

As for “Israel stealing land” biblically speaking that is the land that God gave them. They came out of slavery in Egypt and marched through the desert till they crossed the Jordan river into present day Israel. It’s the land that God told Abraham that his seed would inhabit. Now if you don’t believe the Bible, the fact still remains that Israel did inhabit that land several thousand years ago.

 

[Baron23]

While folks endlessly bring up the Liberty...

Let's see... We should nuke Japan again over the Panay Incident.

Gas North Korea for the USS Pueblo.

Smart bomb China for the Hainan Island incident... Were they rammed our plane and then wouldn't give it back until they had dismantled it.

And certainly the Germans have not paid for the Lusitania yet... so we ought to firebomb dresden again.

Oh and let's not forget the Soviets shooting down KAL 007 and killing a US Congressman in the process (not that a Congressman was any great loss)

Then again The USS Vincennes shot down Iranian Flight 655...

The US Army Air Corps 'Accidentally' Bombed Switzerland about 75 times in WW2. Oops.

An FB111 Put a smart bomb through the window of the French Embassy in Tripoli in the '80s (I thought that showed some real style... since France would not let the US fly over its airspace to pummel Moammar's tents.)

Oh and I seem to remember we also put a smart bomb into the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Oops... I think we had to apologize for that one.

And there was that bad day in 1950 when USAF planes mistook a Soviet Airforce Base for a North Korean air force base... and blew the shit out of it. That was kind of a big oops...

And who can forget the time we dropped three H-bombs on Spain, which exploded 1000 pounds each of conventional explosives, scattering a shit ton of Plutonium all over a fishing village... There was that. (Not to mention dropping one in South Carolina.) One safety away from turning a big chunk of Spain into a new Gulf... (Gulf of LeMay?) Same with South Carolina. That would have sucked!

Then there was the time that a guy with a wrench and no dummy cord on the socket almost turned Arkansas into a smoking hole.... Oops.

So... endlessly braying on about the Liberty is just stupid. In the Fog of War... stuff happens. Israel had NO reason to deliberatly attack a US ship as it was looking for US Assistance in the Six Day war... and deliberately attacking the Liberty would have jeopardized getting aid from LBJ. Moreover, the Liberty was an old US "Henry Kaiser" Liberty ship and hundreds had been sold surplus after WW2. They were used as tramp steamers and military ships and fishing boats all over the world. It was a lightly-disguised Intelligence-gathering ship... and easily mistaken for a number of the same types of ships being used by Egypt and other navies... Liberty did not look like a state-of-the-art U.S. Ship and was believed to be a threat. The 'old beat up' look of Liberty was part of its 'spy trawler' cover.

So while tragic... there is no basis for endlessly beating up Israel for the Liberty. We've been just as careless, reckless and accident-prone as anyone else has. Weapons are a dangerous business. Weapons in and around war zones... are inherently at risk. As are their crews. Sucked for the folks killed on Liberty. They were no less casualties of the Cold War than hundreds of others who served and defended and were in the line of fire when/where the Cold War went hot. Or when shit happened.

Sirhr

Pesky damn facts and what….a bit of perspective? lol

 

[Baron23]

As for “Israel stealing land” biblically speaking that is the land that God gave them. They came out of slavery in Egypt and marched through the desert till they crossed the Jordan river into present day Israel. It’s the land that God told Abraham that his seed would inhabit. Now if you don’t believe the Bible, the fact still remains that Israel did inhabit that land several thousand years ago.

Yep, incredibly it appears that one can thump a bible without actually reading it. lol.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Yep, incredibly it appears that one can thump a bible without actually reading it. lol.

Haha. Not sure if you’re aiming at me or agreeing with me, but ok. I read it and do my best not to thump it

 

[375fan]

Netanjahu’s swan song, Isreali economy is fucked already so incoming fire while beneficial to rally the Joos around their big cohones leader sure wont help the state survive and if this goes on for a while and critical infrastructure get severely damaged in the process they will wake up to harsh economic reality and a failed state.

I’m rooting for both and i hope the games goes into multiple overtimes and as long as score is high i do not care who wins in the end as both will be losers.

The only loser will be the U.S. taxpayer.

 

[Sandhog308]

Guessing you mean 1973... Because that's when Yom Kippur happened.

And, yeah... about 50 years ago. That's the one where Israel almost used nukes. Sampson Option and the planes were loaded up.

Sirhr

My bad ! ….. It was in October of 1973.
We were back in North Island getting ready for another West PAC.
North Islands security ramped up , thinking peoples planned leave was cancelled.
Weird vibe !

 

[Baron23]

Haha. Not sure if you’re aiming at me or agreeing with me, but ok. I read it and do my best not to thump it

Agreeing, absolutely.

 

[david walter]

I do. Wasn’t sure anyone had noticed.

The Air Power business is very fluid right now as hypersonic drones, AI augmented Manned-Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) or collaborative combat aircraft (https://x.com/i/grok/share/hkHKB7m1A2Zq8XSAvYd6HpNrE) and hunter killer drones (Ukraine attack on Russian bombers, Isreal attack on Iran) make day-to-day combat effectiveness and survivability questionable.


The race for AI dominance is based on the concept that whoever has the best AI will be able to make the most effective use of the battle space and the weapon systems that are in or near the battle space. Hence, letting the other guy get better AI than you becomes an existential threat, and a reason to ratchet up a skirmish to a war to a nuclear strike.

The AI arms race looks very much to me like the nuclear arms race. And where the two concepts, AI and nuclear dominance converge, is where the most danger to the world exists.

IMHO

Last I checked you have a significant amount of experience in the Air domain.

 

[Matches Malone]

the Pentateuch or torah are known as the books of moses because, as the name suggests, they were codified from earlier shorter scrolls or oral traditions. As such, compiled around 1400 BC, they were not, in their complete form, the oldest text. The oldest is Job. The Book of Job predates (does not mention) the Abrahamic Covenant, and it most likely dates from the immediate post-diluvian epoch. It also contains "lost words" which had gone out of usage before the time of Moses, and describes dinosaurs, which I'm sure some people in here will have fun with.

That stuff interest me. I also like Wes Huff’s on multiple theology and history’s.

 

[Darayavaus]

As for “Israel stealing land” biblically speaking that is the land that God gave them. They came out of slavery in Egypt and marched through the desert till they crossed the Jordan river into present day Israel. It’s the land that God told Abraham that his seed would inhabit. Now if you don’t believe the Bible, the fact still remains that Israel did inhabit that land several thousand years ago.

well now.
facebook is always full of bullshit about "there were no palestinians.....and even if there were, the Hebrews were there first!" and I guess eventually some people will believe the Zuk.

But the timeline goes like this: Abraham then Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, then slavery in Egypt and Moses and the return to Canaan.

In reality "Palestine" is the latin equivalent of "Land of the Philistines" and the Philistines were there first. One of the 5 lords of the Philistines, The Abimelech, and the commander of his army, the Phicol, made a treaty with Abraham. A generation later they renewed it with Isaac. They sold some land to Abraham (see that timeline above) and made him promise that his descendents would not screw with their descendents. Needless to say, they did. The locals were nice to Abraham, and look at how the Jews repaid them.

if you doubt it, it's in Genesis 21 and 26.
Genesis 21: "Now swear to me here before God that you will not deal falsely with me or my children or my descendants. Show to me and the country where you now reside as a foreigner the same kindness I have shown to you.”
24 Abraham said, “I swear it.”....
31 So that place was called Beersheba, because the two men swore an oath there......
34 And Abraham stayed in the land of the Philistines for a long time.

 

[Darayavaus]

And since I am the furthest thing from pro-Muslim, I'll throw in another piece about how the Muslims are full of crap, pretenders, and the Covenants did go through the jews.

Genesis 17:
18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”
19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac

 

[Im2bent]

An FB111 Put a smart bomb through the window of the French Embassy in Tripoli in the '80s (I thought that showed some real style... since France would not let the US fly over its airspace to pummel Moammar's tents.)

Oh and I seem to remember we also put a smart bomb into the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Oops... I think we had to apologize for that one.

And there was that bad day in 1950 when USAF planes mistook a Soviet Airforce Base for a North Korean air force base... and blew the shit out of it. That was kind of a big oops...



Sirhr

You say that like its a bad thing...

 

[mosin46]

a thought about-the Jews were there 1st. were the pilgrims here before the Iroquois? were the Spanish in Mexico before the Aztec? that whole line of BS is just more Israeli whining and trying to play the chosen people card. unfortunately American fundamentalists feed on that BS. so does the MIC for different reasons. does that claim mean the Indians should get back all of No. America. should Mexico get back 1/3 of this country because? that whole game that the Jews play is just more obey us because. congress usually does.

 

[Darayavaus]

a thought about-the Jews were there 1st. were the pilgrims here before the Iroquois? were the Spanish in Mexico before the Aztec? that whole line of BS is just more Israeli whining and trying to play the chosen people card. unfortunately American fundamentalists feed on that BS. so does the MIC for different reasons. does that claim mean the Indians should get back all of No. America. should Mexico get back 1/3 of this country because? that whole game that the Jews play is just more obey us because. congress usually does.

depends on where "here" is. the Iroquois were confined to a much smaller area before the pilgrims, because the local Algonquins kept them in check. In fact, the Mohicans were in the process of pushing them back and establishing new settlements in Mohawk territory when the Europeans showed up. Then we played everybody against each other and gave the 5 nations firearms to use against the Algonquins (as well as other Iroquoins like the Laurentine and Erie) during the Beaver Wars. So our presence wrecked some tribes, and greatly advanced the 5 Nations beyond their original boundaries.

The Jews lost their northern kingdom to the Assyrians, their southern kingdom to the Babylonians. The Iranians restored the ones who were left. Later, the Greeks were pretty heavy handed with them, sacrificing a pig in the Temple. The Romans were assholes to everyone, and then after Yarmuk, the Muslims fucked up the entire neighborhood. Sure, put the jews back 2,000 years later if you want, but what we did was give one tribe the means to wipe out another tribe, just like we did with the indians. there's no fairness to it, the right or wrong of all there situations depends purely on whether you are the tribe being killed off, or the one doing the killing.

 

[BurtG]

FFS...are you really that stupid? I know you are really that much of an ignorant bigot. But are you so stupid as to not understand that after posting about friendly fire incident by Israel (in fucking 1967 and motivated by your bigotry) why I posted a link to a HUGE list of friendly fire incidents by pretty much all countries in pretty much all reasonably modern wars.

GTFO

Next you will make excuses for that Mossad black mail op that was Epstein’s island


People have opened their eyes and started noticing.

 

[RUN8]

Next you will make excuses for that Mossad black mail op that was Epstein’s island


People have opened their eyes and started noticing.

I would have to see some compelling evidence beyond conspiracy theories that Epstein was an agent for Mossad, or any other organization.

There isn’t any so far.

I’m not saying it’s not plausible or even unlikely that Epstein was a degenerate running a honey pot intel/blackmail operation, but there is a long long long list of possible nations that are far more adversarial to the United States who would benefit from that more than Israel. Just because Epstein had a Jewish surname doesn’t mean he was working for Mossad.

In fact if you think about it for more than about 30 seconds you might conclude that Mossad using a high profile Jewish dude to work as an agent is some super super sloppy tradecraft.

I would be looking really hard at the Chinese for example.

As far as the conflict between Israel and Iran goes. I am all for staying out of it. We’re really bad at nation building and regime changes. If Israel wants to pet that burning dog, that’s on them. Israel isn’t perfect, and propping up a Jewish state populated by European Jews in a location where there hadn’t been a Jewish state in 2000+ years wasn’t a great idea as it turns out. However, they’re the only country in the region that is a western style representative democracy based on more or less western civilization. So I will grudgingly side with them over 12th century barbarians who follow the rantings of a goat fucking, murdering, rapist war lord.

We should sell Israel all the weapons and munitions they can afford: US Dollars or gold bullion in payment; 50% in advance 50% on delivery. No credit. No lend lease. No foreign aid. Put your big boy pants on Israel, and fight your fight and pay your own way.

 

[Tokay444]

We'll have to respectfully disagree on this... Churchill got us into WW2? Well, he was certainly trying. But IIRC the Japs got us into WW2 and Hitler declared war on us first... Churchill was happy. But it was our economic embargo's against the Nips that got us into WW2.

The whole of Africa and the ME are shitholes. But they have resources we need. Or need to deny to our enemies. Remember, too, that our oil strategy has been to drain the world first. Keeping our vast reserves in the ground. And deny that oil to others.

And Israel has been our 'protectorate' for 80 years-ish... in large part because the US and the West failed to prevent 6 or so million of them from getting turned into air pollution. Now that sounds kind of academic here and now. But the US stood by and let it happen. Largely because bureaucracy and anti-semitism prevented any action pre-war. So the nation has had the guilt for a while. And in the post-war period, it was decided that the Jews needed a homeland. And that it should not be Germany (which was a real proposal) because Germany was needed as a bulwark against Stalin. Hey, Interests again.

So your points are all well-taken.

Though regarding Liberty... deliberate is a perception. Did they deliberately attack? Yes. But against a mistaken target. Oops. Fog of war. They thought it was an Egyptian ship. They had no motive for attacking the Liberty. In fact, they had every motivation to protect it. But fucked up. Bad. But they still fucked up. Noone said "Lets get this American Ship." Because that would have been stupid! And they are anything but Stupid, them hooknoses!

It's a good debate... but a lot of the arguments come down to... do you want to vilify Israel, or defend them. Me, I'll defend that we have an interest in being their 'friend' for now. For... interests. They have so far been more reliable than most over there. Lots of reasons to distrust them. Like Spy rings. Possible theft of nuclear material. Influence peddling at a massive level (though any more than Catholics or Wayne LaPierre?). And some acts that didn't help our foreign policy at times (settlement building, for example.) But in the big picture.... they have been 'less worse' than others.

And right now, I am hoping they turn the entire Iranian hierarchy into martyrs. So there is that. Saves us from having to do it and then get stuck with more "Nation Building" that we suck at and should never attempt.

Cheers,

Sirhr

It was 271,000 at most.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Israels air defense putting in work. Some getting through but most seem to be intercepted. FYi video repeats.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

I would have to see some compelling evidence beyond conspiracy theories that Epstein was an agent for Mossad, or any other organization.

There isn’t any so far.

I’m not saying it’s not plausible or even unlikely that Epstein was a degenerate running a honey pot intel/blackmail operation, but there is a long long long list of possible nations that are far more adversarial to the United States who would benefit from that more than Israel. Just because Epstein had a Jewish surname doesn’t mean he was working for Mossad.

In fact if you think about it for more than about 30 seconds you might conclude that Mossad using a high profile Jewish dude to work as an agent is some super super sloppy tradecraft.

I would be looking really hard at the Chinese for example.

As far as the conflict between Israel and Iran goes. I am all for staying out of it. We’re really bad at nation building and regime changes. If Israel wants to pet that burning dog, that’s on them. Israel isn’t perfect, and propping up a Jewish state populated by European Jews in a location where there hadn’t been a Jewish state in 2000+ years wasn’t a great idea as it turns out. However, they’re the only country in the region that is a western style representative democracy based on more or less western civilization. So I will grudgingly side with them over 12th century barbarians who follow the rantings of a goat fucking, murdering, rapist war lord.

We should sell Israel all the weapons and munitions they can afford: US Dollars or gold bullion in payment; 50% in advance 50% on delivery. No credit. No lend lease. No foreign aid. Put your big boy pants on Israel, and fight your fight and pay your own way.

her father. Read the section on Israeli support, while not proof of any thing she did. Interesting to say the least.

Maxwell is alleged to have distributed a bugged version of a software, PROMIS, to a plethora of national governments and global financial institutions that enabled mass spying by the government of Israel.[57]

Maxwell was allegedly able to sell the bugged Israeli version of the PROMIS software to Sandia National Laboratories and Los Alamos National Laboratory, two of the most important nuclear research and national security facilities in the United States.[57]Maxwell allegedly employed John Tower, Chairman of the United States Senate Committee on Armed Services, to facilitate the sales of the bugged Israeli version of the PROMIS software to Sandia and Los Alamos

Robert Maxwell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RUN8]

her father. Read the section on Israeli support, while not proof of any thing she did. Interesting to say the least.

Maxwell is alleged to have distributed a bugged version of a software, PROMIS, to a plethora of national governments and global financial institutions that enabled mass spying by the government of Israel.[57]

Maxwell was allegedly able to sell the bugged Israeli version of the PROMIS software to Sandia National Laboratories and Los Alamos National Laboratory, two of the most important nuclear research and national security facilities in the United States.[57]Maxwell allegedly employed John Tower, Chairman of the United States Senate Committee on Armed Services, to facilitate the sales of the bugged Israeli version of the PROMIS software to Sandia and Los Alamos

Robert Maxwell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Conflating the alleged activities of a family member to the activities of another family member might be interesting, but ultimately without actual proof means nothing.

She’s 100000000% a dirtbag and a degenerate, and so was Epstein. The most simple explanation and unfortunately the most likely is that they were just rich degenerate dirtbags who liked freaky immoral shit, and liked hanging out with influential and powerful people. Sociopaths and psychopaths are weird like that, look at P-Diddy: guaranteed his ghetto ass wasn’t running an intel op… he’s just a degenerate pervert with the money to make his fantasies happen.

 

[BurtG]

Conflating the alleged activities of a family member to the activities of another family member might be interesting, but ultimately without actual proof means nothing.

She’s 100000000% a dirtbag and a degenerate, and so was Epstein. The most simple explanation and unfortunately the most likely is that they were just rich degenerate dirtbags who liked freaky immoral shit, and liked hanging out with influential and powerful people. Sociopaths and psychopaths are weird like that, look at P-Diddy: guaranteed his ghetto ass wasn’t running an intel op… he’s just a degenerate pervert with the money to make his fantasies happen.

And the Covid vaccine is safe and effective


You Ned Flanders types are the worst. Turn off cnn.


And the conspiracy theorist record is about 1000x better than the Pravda you get your “facts” from

 

[BurtG]

Infowars reporter mysteriously killed days after network reported on Mossad-Epstein links

Infowars reporter Jamie White is murdered two days after the network aired a report on Mossad’s links to the Epstein case.

www.presstv.ir

“It’s not on cnn or faux news”

Exactly

 

[GreenGO Juan]

means nothing.

If that means nothing… okay guy. Be careful with that 35th covid vaccination booster.

 

[RUN8]

And the Covid vaccine is safe and effective


You Ned Flanders types are the worst. Turn off cnn.


And the conspiracy theorist record is about 1000x better than the Pravda you get your “facts” from

I’m not watching CNN, but I’m also not sucking the conspiracy theorist dick either.

There are no facts I have seen presented on any of the Epstein stuff that prove or disprove it was an intel opp. I’m open to either possibility, but that would require actual proof.

Conspiracy theories are fun, and sometimes they’re right. A lot of them over the course of history are bullshit though. In any conspiracy invariably there’s always some dumb dumb who gets caught or can’t stay quiet. In this case the dumb dumbs got caught, and no information has come out beyond what is known. Absence of evidence is not proof of a conspiracy.

 

[BurtG]

In any conspiracy invariably there’s always some dumb dumb who gets caught or can’t stay quiet.

Just because it doesn’t come across CNN doesn’t mean it didn’t happen / isn’t the truth.

Seth rich was killed by a mugger right

Smfh

 

[RUN8]

Do I believe Seth Rich was killed by a random mugger? Probably not. Say it’s a 70/30 in my mind pro hit vs coincidental crack head. Can’t rule out the crack head though because DC.

Same for Vince Foster.

I’d give the Epstein running an intel opp vs just blackmail at about 60/40. The odds of it being strictly sociopath freak shit vs intel or blackmail at maybe 20/80 in favor of intel/blackmail. That’s just based on my hunch, not actual proof though, and none of my hunches would in any way be actionable intelligence particularly if we are trying to predict who the real paymasters are. It could be quite possible that several nations were buying what Epstein was selling. Probably quite a few large multinational corporations too. Don’t rule out big business wanting leverage to get their handouts.

Can’t prove it though at this point.

 

[232593]

I do. Wasn’t sure anyone had noticed.

The Air Power business is very fluid right now as hypersonic drones, AI augmented Manned-Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) or collaborative combat aircraft (https://x.com/i/grok/share/hkHKB7m1A2Zq8XSAvYd6HpNrE) and hunter killer drones (Ukraine attack on Russian bombers, Isreal attack on Iran) make day-to-day combat effectiveness and survivability questionable.


The race for AI dominance is based on the concept that whoever has the best AI will be able to make the most effective use of the battle space and the weapon systems that are in or near the battle space. Hence, letting the other guy get better AI than you becomes an existential threat, and a reason to ratchet up a skirmish to a war to a nuclear strike.

The AI arms race looks very much to me like the nuclear arms race. And where the two concepts, AI and nuclear dominance converge, is where the most danger to the world exists.

IMHO

I’ve heard that maintenance WRT air frames, especially the types Israel is using,is extremely important and not something that can be waived. What I’m not sure of is if Israel has the facilities, personnel, components to keep this level of pressure on Iran up without suffering a degraded capability, despite what seems like a pretty permissive air environment. What do you think?

My guess is that the IDF has achieved almost complete SAM roll back, or at the least taken the “I” out of IADS. How far off am I on that?

 

[sharac]

Time will tell but so far all that Israelis did is stir up the hornets nest. Where does the Irans actual capability stand we'll see soon enough. If they have enough stockpiles to lob missiles for at least a month then Israelis will be begging for cease fire as their economy and any semblance of normal life go out of the window. Only thing that is really evident is that "whatever" dome you may have will not prevent destruction of sensitive areas and when fighting enemy again old rules apply, production, logistics and endurance-ability to take the pain.