Jae stocks Shut down

[DangerRanger]

I’ve probably been as negative as anyone about it on the other thread, but I’ve tried not to be nasty. To clarify my position on it I’m upset because
1. I was really excited about my chassis

2. I didn’t get an email or any notification finding out on snipershide and felt like I shouldn’t have found out after someone else brought it up when they had my money.

In the end I’ll find another chassis or stock and the world keeps turning. Luckily I paid with a credit card so it seems I’m pretty safe. Before I couldn’t contact them last week about a change I was going to make/add Lisa was extremely helpful and their CS was the best in the business. Sucks.

 

[BCX]

Send Lisa a email. Im sure your money will get refunded. Something huge probably happened for JAE to shut the doors overnight w/o notice!

 

[DangerRanger]

Since last Friday I have left voicemails on their office and cell and sent emails none of which has been returned or answered. I already have my money back from my card.

 

[ForgeValley]

Hey, TonyBen. Watched most of your m1a videos, they've been a great help to me.

I'd second the 300 PRC recommendation. I've got a ARC Archimedes on order for mine, and was going to put it in a JAE. Guess I'll have to find another chassis now. :-(

 

[BCX]

Ck Atlus or 3RD Generation, they were stocking dealers.

 

[BCX]

Hey, TonyBen. Whatched most of your m1a videos, they've been a great help to me.

I'd second the 300 PRC recommendation. I've got a ARC Archimedes on order for mine, and was going to put it in a JAE. Guess I'll have to find another chassis now. :-(

Once my Manners shows up in a few months the JAE CIP could go. Everything has a price. It has the nose art. Nice solid chassis if you can find one.

 

[THEIS]

Something huge probably happened for JAE to shut the doors overnight w/o notice!

Hi,

It more than likely was not as "overnight" as it appears....

Just in case it helps anyone....(You can search California corporations of J Allen Enterprises for the hard copy data)

Per the State of California "Statement of Information" filled June 1; JAE changed ALL their addresses to the mail center address listed on that invoice:

Up until that point the physical premise address was the "Star Machine" address and the registered process agent (Jeff) was apparently their home address.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[chavezz556]

I wonder if they were blowing all their cash at the Massage Eden. Looks like a place that would have "trucker parking"

Can someone look this up on Rubmaps

 

[candyx]

What do you mean we have to pay taxes ?

 

[Basher]

I wonder if they were blowing all their cash at the Massage Eden. Looks like a place that would have "trucker parking"

Can someone look this up on Rubmaps

Can we keep the rubbish like the above out of the thread, please? Lisa and the crew at JAE have been huge contributors to the industry over the years with amazing customer service. I see absolutely ZERO reason to introduce rumors or conjecture on the level suggested above... ? If definitive evidence comes out, then whatever. But suggesting they may have been involved in that kind of crap is uncalled for at this point.

Also, I had to Google RubMaps. It’s the 21st century, I shouldn’t be surprised that kind of crap exists, but here I am... ?

 

[chavezz556]

Can we keep the rubbish like the above out of the thread, please? Lisa and the crew at JAE have been huge contributors to the industry over the years with amazing customer service. I see absolutely ZERO reason to introduce rumors or conjecture on the level suggested above... ? If definitive evidence comes out, then whatever. But suggesting they may have been involved in that kind of crap is uncalled for at this point.

Also, I had to Google RubMaps. It’s the 21st century, I shouldn’t be surprised that kind of crap exists, but here I am... ?

Dude it's a joke!

Rubmaps is pretty hilarious thing

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

If I had to guess I would say either terminal illness or jail time of a key player.

My instinct was legal of some kind - the lawyer sending a C&D kind, not the handcuffs kind. That's just a barely educated guess on my part, though.

 

[Basher]

My instinct was legal of some kind - the lawyer sending a C&D kind, not the handcuffs kind. That's just a barely educated guess on my part, though.

But what would they have done to get a C&D all of a sudden? They didn’t change anything in their product line (that I’m aware of) that would have prompted a complete shuttering of operations overnight, but I guess I could be wrong...

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

But what would they have done to get a C&D all of a sudden? They didn’t change anything in their product line (that I’m aware of) that would have prompted a complete shuttering of operations overnight, but I guess I could be wrong...

No idea, it was just the first thing that made sense to cause a sudden shutdown without any warning to customers. A major illness or death would be more likely to at least have a public statement explaining what was going on and explaining the way forward, etc. - or so I would expect, anyway. I don't know any of the folks at JAE, so I won't speculate on any other possible legal issues.

 

[hlee]

When you’re laying in your bed asleep and your trailer home gets tossed across town, the tornado can seem to be “all of the sudden.” Of course, you weren’t listening to the weather report, or watching the thunderstorm build on the horizon.

If Remington announced tomorrow that they were closing their doors, everyone in this thread would say “saw that coming from 20 years away.” But, there’s about a million Remington owners that would be all like “WTF, everyone I know shoots a Remington.”

My point is only that from the outside looking in (I am right in assuming that no one in this thread owns or works for JAE and that no one here has any first hand information about the closing, correct?) this announcement looks like a sudden thing. Maybe it is. But, maybe this is the result of a thunderstorm that has been brewing, but there were only a very few people looking out to see it.

 

[MarinePMI]

No idea, it was just the first thing that made sense to cause a sudden shutdown without any warning to customers. A major illness or death would be more likely to at least have a public statement explaining what was going on and explaining the way forward, etc. - or so I would expect, anyway. I don't know any of the folks at JAE, so I won't speculate on any other possible legal issues.

If it was a major illness or death, I doubt they would make a statement. That's personal stuff, and stuff like that isn't what most want to put out there while dealing with it. Maybe later, yes; but not while it's happening or contending with the aftermath.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

If it was a major illness or death, I doubt they would make a statement. That's personal stuff, and stuff like that isn't what most want to put out there while dealing with it. Maybe later, yes; but not while it's happening or contending with the aftermath.

Fair enough. I would imagine an illness or death would at least have been more of 'JAE will be shutting down, here's what we're doing for waiting customers...' etc. That's just speculation on my part, though. Whatever the root cause, I hope it's nothing personally devastating to the folks at JAE.

 

[thaifighter]

Alien abduction...

The aliens they "borrowed" the blueprints from to make the 100 and 700 chassis systems finally caught up to them...

Sad, but that's what you get when you go helping yourself to alien tech in violation of inter-galactic IP treaties...

 

[nesikabay]

they knew they were shutting down and still took orders for stocks. That's all that needs to be said

 

[Tokay444]

Very sad news. I own two 100-G3’s and just ordered the last 700 long action Gene Sears had in stock today. Now I have to build that 700 I’ve been holding off on for years. Anyone have a recommendation on action and cartridge?

Their 100 chassis does wonders for a properly built M14. I’ve held roughly 6” at 600 yards before with mine for 10 shots.

Tony.

7SAUM

 

[nesikabay]

Its wrote in stone if they have your money. Its gone

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

they knew they were shutting down and still took orders for stocks. That's all that needs to be said

How did you come to that conclusion? I've not seen anything indicating *when* they knew they were going to be shutting down.

 

[Covertnoob5]

they knew they were shutting down and still took orders for stocks. That's all that needs to be said

I think Lisa and company at JAllen have earned the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn’t do something like that with unfair intentions. Let’s not start a false narrative.

 

[BCX]

Its wrote in stone if they have your money. Its gone

Always pay w a major CC, use the consumer protection...

 

[Steel head]

How did you come to that conclusion? I've not seen anything indicating *when* they knew they were going to be shutting down.

I’m interested in what info that comment is based on as well.

I think Lisa and company at JAllen have earned the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn’t do something like that with unfair intentions. Let’s not start a false narrative.

I concur.

 

[deersniper]

Well some one posted they changed all their address June 1?



Wouldn't be the first time for people to get burned. Like those fucks at Southwest ammo.

 

[308pirate]

Travis (NRL President) mentioned something about "the reason will come out in time", and another person on FB made some comments about this not being avoidable and it being sudden. Not sure what caused all this, but my spidey senses tell me it may be something outside of business that caused the shutdown (like family related). Eventually it'll come out.

I mentioned this so that some here don't rush too quickly with the mob to lynch JAE in the public square before we know all the details.

To be completely honest, none of us has any right at all to "lynch" a business for their decision to close. It happens all the time (which I know you know).

 

[308pirate]

If I were a betting man I would say that their long ass leadtimes led to a very slow velocity of money (took too long to turn materials and labor into revenue) ending in a cash flow crunch that became unsustainable.

 

[Huskydriver]

If I were a betting man I would say that their long ass leadtimes led to a very slow velocity of money (took too long to turn materials and labor into revenue) ending in a cash flow crunch that became unsustainable.

Timing of cash flows...#1 killer of small businesses nailed it

 

[Dthomas3523]

If I were a betting man I would say that their long ass leadtimes led to a very slow velocity of money (took too long to turn materials and labor into revenue) ending in a cash flow crunch that became unsustainable.

Same. Not to mention, when you only have one (and comparatively speaking) high end product in a niche industry, for 16 years.......eventually most people that want one, have one.

Also having long lead times when you have 10+ years of your own used product on the market to compete with doesn’t help. Can buy a used one for $400 less AND have it now......you just created a huge competitor out of your own product.

 

[Threadcutter308]

I’m a machinist and have worked in the gun business - you aren’t wrong.

That said, I do know what it takes to turn a stee rod into a rifled blank. And what it then takes to turn that blank into an AR barrel.

I also have worked on much of the rest of it, to include polymer AR lower design and consultation etc etc etc.

A lot of successful companies making aluminum chassis also use other products for aerospace/etc to offset their costs for being able to make the gun stuff.

You tell Oshkosh that it’s going to be $575 a piece for these custom fire hose adapters and they don’t blink an eye. And you can afford that 5 axis machine now because they wanted 200 a month for 5 years.

You make the 200 in a week and pay for all of your labor and machine costs and have a free 5 axis for 3 weeks. Can anyone say “time to make some actions?”.

Where most people make mistakes is the “go big or go home”. They stayed small to cut risk and burned their gun customers or they went big and didn’t have a follow on product ready to go the second demand for product 0 fell off.

Conversely, the same customer that commits to 200 a month for 5 years;

"You tell Oshkosh that it’s going to be $575 a piece for these custom fire hose adapters and they don’t blink an eye. And you can afford that 5 axis machine now because they wanted 200 a month for 5 years".

They get two or three months into the agreement/contract and say (if they say anything at all.....) "Oh, we've decided to go a different route"...........
In cases like that, you're screwed. You have all the payments remaining on that nice, shiny new CNC and no customers for it's output. In my business, I've seen it happen time and time again. The company I work for builds custom power electronics. When going down that path, we force our customers to put skin in the game by charging NRE's and signing contracts. Most of them don't like it, but we have to protect ourselves. The ones that bitch the loudest are typically the ones that crap out the soonest and leave you holding the bag. We "pass up" many "really great opportunities", but I can't tell you the number of times that we've passed them up, watched the "business" go to a competitor, only to see the competitor get screwed because they didn't protect themselves.

Perhaps something along these lines happened to JAE (?.....)

 

[PracticalTactical]

Well if they went out of business, you could look at it this way...

They were not expensive enough!

 

[DOA]

Wow wth... I’m glad I have 2. This should only add resale value to a used chassis.

Company closes its doors and you are talking about making a profit off their demise. Classy.

 

[Steel head]

I'd think the exact opposite.. Resale value would go down since you're no longer going to have any sort of support for the chassis.. No warranty, no replacement parts unless you find them used...

This.
I certainly would pay less now for one.

I still plan on buying one someday.

 

[MarinePMI]

I'm on the other side of this. Economics is all about scarcity and price, supply and demand. Which flies in the face of a top end product being less after it is unavailable.

...Especially in a sport/discipline where people spend stupid amounts of money on things (like really? Can we really sensibly justify a shooting bag costing over $100? It's a piece of material stitched together and filled with plastic fucking beads...).

 

[Steel head]

I'm on the other side of this. Economics is all about scarcity and price, supply and demand. Which flies in the face of a top end product being less after it is unavailable.

...Especially in a sport/discipline where people spend stupid amounts of money on things (like really? Can we really sensibly justify a shooting bag costing over $100? It's a piece of material stitched together and filled with plastic fucking beads...).

Some people want stuff because it’s rare and hard to get.

Generally I want stuff because is functional and has good support/warranties.

If it’s really awesome I might fudge the support/warranty part a bit.

 

[superde]

(like really? Can we really sensibly justify a shooting bag costing over $100? It's a piece of material stitched together and filled with plastic fucking beads...).

Yes, if you care about US made products.

 

[MarinePMI]

Yes, if you care about US made products.

Nice cheap shot, but you still haven't explained "how"...

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Nice cheap shot, but you still haven't explained "how"...

US made materials have higher costs due to labor and overhead (greater taxes, regulations, facilities, etc).
US labor to make the product from that raw material is higher cost, as well as the same overhead as above.
Most are made in small quantities by hand, so little to no economies of scale involved to bring costs down. (Obviously not as much for CNC machined items, but even then most are made in smaller batches).

The actual manufacturing costs for high quality bags isn't as cheap as most people think. There's a respectable profit margin, of course, but it's not like many of the Chinese products that are made for pennies and sold for dozens of times their actual cost.

 

[MCSO1357]

Look at PX, these still linger after price cuts. Ultimately the market will determine value, not its supposed “rarity.”

 

[MarinePMI]

US made materials have higher costs due to labor and overhead (greater taxes, regulations, facilities, etc).
US labor to make the product from that raw material is higher cost, as well as the same overhead as above.
Most are made in small quantities by hand, so little to no economies of scale involved to bring costs down. (Obviously not as much for CNC machined items, but even then most are made in smaller batches).

The actual manufacturing costs for high quality bags isn't as cheap as most people think. There's a respectable profit margin, of course, but it's not like many of the Chinese products that are made for pennies and sold for dozens of times their actual cost.

Oh I hear you, I'm just making a point that many of the things in this sport are expensive beyond what they are (they're specialty items, if you will). That being said, there is still a healthy profit margin. I don't begrudge a manufacturer charging what the market will pay...but often times that is well above and beyond what an average profit margin is. I get it, today's hot bag is tomorrow's "has been", so they need to recoup what they can. But let's not pretend it really has anything to do with US manufacturing (where else it is going to be made?) that increases the cost of the bag to four or five times over the material costs. Yeah, I know, US labor isn't cheap...

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

While USA labor is not cheap...let us not act like it is the costliest either
I personally acquired a company and moved it to the USA from Finland because it is so much cheaper to manufacturer here.
Not to mention, so much easier in getting alloys, etc.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Oh I hear you, I'm just making a point that many of the things in this sport are expensive beyond what they are (they're specialty items, if you will). That being said, there is still a healthy profit margin. I don't begrudge a manufacturer charging what the market will pay...but often times that is well above and beyond what an average profit margin is. I get it, today's hot bag is tomorrow's "has been", so they need to recoup what they can. But let's not pretend it really has anything to do with US manufacturing (where else it is going to be made?) that increases the cost of the bag to four or five times over the material costs. Yeah, I know, US labor isn't cheap...

Have you actually looked at the cost of US made fabric, especially for multicam? It's not as cheap as you think. I don't doubt that there's some companies making a hefty profit on bags and such, but not all of them are doing so.

 

[THEIS]

Have you actually looked at the cost of US made fabric, especially for multicam? It's not as cheap as you think. I don't doubt that there's some companies making a hefty profit on bags and such, but not all of them are doing so.

Hi,

Quick search shows Berry complaint multicam 500D Cordura at $18 per yard for 60" wide. (Retail cost, not OEM/Contract Cost)

Multicam Classic 500D Cordura 60" wide Milspec Berry Compliant US Made BY THE YARD

Multicam Classic 500D Cordura 60" wide Milspec Berry Compliant US Made BY THE YARD

www.wtfidea.com

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Hi,

Quick search shows Berry complaint multicam 500D Cordura at $18 per yard for 60" wide. (Retail cost, not OEM/Contract Cost)

Multicam Classic 500D Cordura 60" wide Milspec Berry Compliant US Made BY THE YARD

Multicam Classic 500D Cordura 60" wide Milspec Berry Compliant US Made BY THE YARD

www.wtfidea.com

Sincerely,
Theis

Yep. It also looks like that's some kind of salvage/overrun fabric, but whatever. Now do the math on how much fabric (including lost cuttings) it takes to make a lot of the popular bags, as well as labor time to cut, sort, sew, fill, and close said bag. The time involved to do the sewing is longer than most people would think, too.

 

[308pirate]

I should have saved all those canvas bags that shot pellets used to come in. Would be great for making shooting bags.

 

[superde]

Nice cheap shot, but you still haven't explained "how"...

I don't want to get into mud throwing contest, and probably should have kept out of it from the start.

As a US manufacturing business owner, the most expensive part of the business is labor by far. From training, to wage, to workmans comp, to unemployment. Then there is the employee cost of that 45 minute poop break you didn't forecast in, or someone is sick and it slows the whole process down since they have a key role in the process. As well as every once in a while there is that employee that didn't get good sleep and sews 20 things wrong before they realize it, and all that material and time is trash. I love my employees like my extended family. But like a family with kids - it's expensive.

We send product out to units deployed overseas, some of that margin goes here.

We donate product to matches, fundraisers, etc. And while some say that is an advertising expense, it's hard to measure the impact. You are more helping a buddy who is a match director out, and saying thank you to the competitors who probably helped build you company. Some of the margin goes here.

On all product that is donated - taxes are paid on the retail price FWIW.

Another thing is if you have a dealer network, there is margin for them - but that is news to no one.

As Brandon noted above, there really is not a lot of economies of scale. There are on some items in your first few years of growth, but now all we see is material prices rise every January.

I have been approached by overseas manufacturers, and for how little money they can make product for is impressive. At times you scratch your head and wonder why you're not just renting an empty warehouse and writing checks.

When I was on the other side of the counter, I used to think along the same lines. Now that I have been behind the curtain for 8 years, I realize what it actually takes to run a US based manufacturing company. If someone offers me a discount - great, but I never ask for it because most are not getting rich.

And thank you for your service!

 

[MarinePMI]

I don't want to get into mud throwing contest, and probably should have kept out of it from the start.

As a US manufacturing business owner, the most expensive part of the business is labor by far. From training, to wage, to workmans comp, to unemployment. Then there is the employee cost of that 45 minute poop break you didn't forecast in, or someone is sick and it slows the whole process down since they have a key role in the process. As well as every once in a while there is that employee that didn't get good sleep and sews 20 things wrong before they realize it, and all that material and time is trash. I love my employees like my extended family. But like a family with kids - it's expensive.

We send product out to units deployed overseas, some of that margin goes here.

We donate product to matches, fundraisers, etc. And while some say that is an advertising expense, it's hard to measure the impact. You are more helping a buddy who is a match director out, and saying thank you to the competitors who probably helped build you company. Some of the margin goes here.

On all product that is donated - taxes are paid on the retail price FWIW.

Another thing is if you have a dealer network, there is margin for them - but that is news to no one.

As Brandon noted above, there really is not a lot of economies of scale. There are on some items in your first few years of growth, but now all we see is material prices rise every January.

I have been approached by overseas manufacturers, and for how little money they can make product for is impressive. At times you scratch your head and wonder why you're not just renting an empty warehouse and writing checks.

When I was on the other side of the counter, I used to think along the same lines. Now that I have been behind the curtain for 8 years, I realize what it actually takes to run a US based manufacturing company. If someone offers me a discount - great, but I never ask for it because most are not getting rich.

And thank you for your service!

I have to say, that was a very well worded and politely written disagreement. While I still don't agree entirely on everything stated, I can definitely see your points (and the weight that they carry). I wish more could disagree so eloquently. Thank you.

 

[Raptor005]

I work for a large global company and manage headcount planning and forecasting across 7 countries for several different pay grades. The average cost of an employee in an entry level job in the US is approx $3500 per month. The average cost of that same job (working 20 hours more per month) in India is around $1500 per month. India isn't the cheapest country for labor, but it is one of the most cost efficient due to productivity.

I fully support keeping things in the US, but I understand when companies need to outsource just to stay alive.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have to say, that was a very well worded and politely written disagreement. While I still don't agree entirely on everything stated, I can definitely see your points (and the weight that they carry). I wish more could disagree so eloquently. Thank you.

Fuck you, you’re wrong.

Sorry. Had to get things back to normal. Was getting too hippie around here.