Here, here. Thanks for postingJames was the first one out of his vehicle to return fire from the rear of the vehicle. He moved away from that position because the person in the back seat was taking that position with his fully auto weapon.
He then ran to secondary cover, popping smoke and continued covering his team. The enemy was gone after the initial contact that had ended almost immediately after it started. It was a hit and run. They were simply attempting to suppress fire of an ambush that none of them saw.
Why didn’t they see it? Because “Johnno” the team leader was not watching his AO but instead was having “Camel” back up the rearward BMW with his door open because he dropped his “MCI” (cell phone) out the window. You can hear him say this and the door bell dinging. (MCI had the cell contract)
They never should have been stopped there. That was not James decision. Johnno should not have been dicking around ignoring his area of responsibility. James freely admits that he made a mistake when he tried to accelerate the vehicle thinking it was disabled, when in fact it was in neutral. He made a mistake in the heat of battle and moved to return fire.
The fact is if he had accelerated, he wound have left the other vehicles (the rest of his team) behind. All three KIAs were already mortally wounded. The hard-sided Mercedes was disabled and the driver of the rear BMW was dead. The insurgences were already leaving.
The fact is, that all three men were that were killed, were mortally wounded in the initial contact . In the video you see some fire later. This is the passenger of James vehicle squeezing off rounds as he dies. Johnno shrieks “stop firing!” Because he knows the insurgents have left and it is his own team member firing.
James then immediately moves to cover Johnno as Johnno renders aid to mortally wounded Jay Hunt.
They were operating in two soft sided vehicles and one hard sided vehicle. They were on what was termed “the most dangerous road in the world” at the time. The men killed were in the soft sided vehicles. This was not James decision. They were stopped for an extended time against SOP under Johnno’s orders, not James.
James freely admitted mistakes were made that day. I have yet to see one of his critics post a video of themselves under fire, in an ambush. The decisions that got people killed that day we’re not made by James they were made by Johnno and others above him.
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I appreciate this thread. Also, ALS sucks.
Too bad the truth came out after JY passed, after enduring years of lies. I feel bad and I wasn't even part of that dogpile.
James was a patriot and we could have used him.
Its a stretch to say that the truth came out in this thread. The reason this shit continues is that there have not been any courtroom-evidence- grade renditions of the encounter that I have seen, and I have never spoken to anyone that was physically there.
Were any of the people in this thread physically there or asked to investigate the matter from a standpoint of legally admissible reporting?
I'm asking because frankly, this is one of the few places where someone might come back and say "yes".
Also, I don't give a fuck what some dude I don't know might have done to some assholes I don't know in some place I probably have never been. Jesus, find a book to read people.
All I've ever heard about JY is he was a coward for bailing out of a car that got ambushed and went to the ditch, which is what any Marine is supposed to do when on patrol and comes under fire. Scatter like cockroaches and seek defilade.
I learn now he did more than that. He returned fired, popped smoke and tended to wounded. I don't think it's a stretch to say he behaved admirably.
And fuck courtroom evidence, I just watched and heard the tape.
You, like I did, saw and heard a tape on Youtube. Of unidentifiable guys taking contact.
One with the comments disabled for some reason. If that doesn't make you ask some questions...?
This could literally be the exact truth, or it could be something from some other incident repurposed here. It was posted by some shadow poster who only ever posted this video and has zero information about them anywhere in their account.
I like to be skeptical.
I'm not that cynical...yet, but I'm a work in progress.
I am still an 'innocent until proven guilty' type of guy and I am told that video I posted is Yeager and team mates under fire and I don't see anybody taking cover in a ditch, not that there would have been anything wrong with that other than it may have exposed you more than using the vehicle for cover.
This is correct based on my knowledge of the situation as well.
I wasn't there, and neither was anyone else. As stated, it's a point of learning to be better during future contact situations.
Where this gets strange is the "Coward James Yeager" video thing that was posted earlier doesn't seem to match any sort of questionable shoot/overreaction story at all. They start taking fire (in that video, whoever that happens to be) and you can hear the driver in the car with the dash cam mention he's hit bad.
The Edinburgh Risk cluster fuck on Rte Irish was a case study in what fucking up on all levels looks like for many high threat security contracting companies. I know that much first hand, I used to teach it to new hires and in advanced training. From staying in traffic on a blocked route, to creating a bubble while low pro, to actively firing to warn off civilian vehicles, to sitting in the wide open, to taking the car out of gear and then forgetting to put it back in gear once contact was made, the entire team fucked up that day. They were far from the only ones to do that, it was the cowboy days of security contracting where meeting the absolute bare minimums (and in many cases not even that) got you five bills a day tax free from a slew of outfits with shitty business ethics, shitty management and leadership, shitty equipment and shitty tactics employed by shitty "operators".
Yeager was one of many to be a part of all that, at least he lived through the firestorm and knew better than to keep at it. I still believe he was a blowhard douchebag in life, that whole public duel challenge was especially stupid, but I do wish his family peace in his passing.
Yeager was one of many to be a part of all that, at least he lived through the firestorm and knew better than to keep at it. I still believe he was a blowhard douchebag in life, that whole public duel challenge was especially stupid, but I do wish his family peace in his passing.
Oh look.
DOC EDINBURGH RISK AND SECURITY MANAGEMENT - DefenseReview.com
SO - reading the literature.
1. That is a video of the incident.
2. TEAM SOP's sucked.
3. Fuck nothing scares me as much as being trapped in an unarmored vehicle and taking fire. Even room clearing isn't that bad IMHO.
4. The PKM had AP and the baddies had an armored vehicle. That sucks.
5. Yeager didn't do as bad as most would have suggested in other venues.
and:
6. This document seems to have been made by Edinburg...which for legal and publicity reasons would probably always cover their own asses anyway.
DOC EDINBURGH RISK AND SECURITY MANAGEMENT - DefenseReview.com
SO - reading the literature.
1. That is a video of the incident.
2. TEAM SOP's sucked.
3. Fuck nothing scares me as much as being trapped in an unarmored vehicle and taking fire. Even room clearing isn't that bad IMHO.
4. The PKM had AP and the baddies had an armored vehicle. That sucks.
5. Yeager didn't do as bad as most would have suggested in other venues.
and:
6. This document seems to have been made by Edinburg...which for legal and publicity reasons would probably always cover their own asses anyway.
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That's kind of where I'm at.
Read the Edinburgh AAR; it literally isn't even from the same thing the video shows.
I know. And the video show three vehicles, two in the lead, the third with the camera. I see no overpass, no approaching white van.
"At this time the three vehicles are spaced at approximately 100 meters between vehicles with the motorcade occupying an area estimated to be 300-400 meters in length from the front vehicle to the rear vehicle."
IRAQ: The Brutal Death of Security Contractors in Baghdad's Gridlock | corpwatch
They looked so local that they risked drawing friendly fire if they attempted to move up to shelter under the American guns. So they sat in no man's land, chit-chatting by radio as they willed on the Americans to reopen the road before their cover was blown.
Sometimes it's a good thing to go back in-time and read reports/articles fresh of the presses of [then] current events. Seems to support what's in the video. Lots of personal memories flooding back watching that video (I was not associated with that group, but I had just left that part of the world a few months earlier after spending an 8 month, all expenses paid vacation courtesy of Uncle Sam). Whether you liked, disliked, or hated the guy, he still deserves respect. Fair winds and following seas James. Lots of memories watching his early YT videos before any of the current crop was around.
The overpass is supposed to be behind them. I don't see the attackers, but have found that most video isn't able to show them well from combat incidents. Very rare you see the people shooting at you in video.
It does appear to be a mercedes on the right, and a BMW on the left which would match the description. I do think that many don't understand what the fuck 100yds means, including the people who wrote this shit. The lead car in this clusterfuck appears to be 75 yds away max.
Watching the video, the attackers did a bang-up job frankly. Whoever was running that PKM or those PKM's knew just what they were doing IMHO.
The voices accents seem to match the AAR. And finally, I wouldn't want to take an unarmored vehicle down route IRISH.
Be skeptical is my motto - but also make sure you write your half assed assumptions about what happened in pencil and not pen. I'm now more supportive of the idea that Yeager could have used more time behind a stick but otherwise did OK.
Written by the same guy who shoots 1.5 inch groups at 1500 yards if he does his part.
Wait... I thought everyone here does that daily? With a Quigley Ford no less... both in Vietnam and Okinawa at the same time.
Along with concrete, bow kills and bench presses.
And this |<----------------->| is six inches.
With respect, RIP Jay Hunt, Chris Ahmlemen, Steff Surette, and James Yaeger.
Agreed. My first thought was those were either Chechens or the trigger pullers had Chechen training/leadership. I know Chechens were already in-country at that time (mid-2005) and they all had very good TTPs and lived experiences with ambush tactics at that point coming fresh off their fights with the Russians.
After running a shooting range, you'd be surprised how many people can't judge distance and can't believe a 100 yard range isn't 400 yds. And argue with you and storm off, claiming they were in the military.
The Mercedes appears to be about sixty yards.
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Some guy on Next-door commented on a possible mountain lion sighting in the area and said a mountain lion's canines can reach 4" long.
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