JST AAR

Outsydlooknin75

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So I told John I would do an AAR write up for the latest JST match.

Where: Aycock Farm, NC.

Date: June 12th 2010

Time: 9:00am

Myself and 3 others that I shoot with regularly attended this match, we made the drive up from the Atlanta area and it took us aproximately 8 hours to get to Kenly NC where we stayed the night at the Econolodge. We decided that it was best for us to make the drive friday and spend the night so we could be fresh for the match in the morning.

We arrived at the Aycock farm approximately around 8am. We parked the truck and signed in as a group, unfortunately there was a couple of shooters that signed in between us spreading us out in the shooting order. By the time all were signed up there were 28 total shooters.

We were told that we could get our rifles and begin ranging targets from various places in the general area that we would be shooting from. Target sizes were given, but one downside is that not everyone was prepared for the target sizes and had nothing to write with or on. I scrambled and found a piece of paper in my wallet (my temporary drivers licence), and I keep a pen in my pocket so the writing utensil wasnt that big of a scramble. We werent given exact firing locations but were told the relative area we would be firing from to range targets, and to make a range card. We were given approximately 20 mins to make the range card and do what we wanted to as far as ranging. I had a range card from google maps that I had made prior to showing up, but I did range targets just to confirm what I had found out by doing a little research on my own.

The day got started after a quick safety briefing with the pistol portion of the event. We walked down range about 400 yards to where the pistol portion was set up, which was a humanoid paper target, and 8 steel targets. Course of fire on pistols was start holstered, draw and put 3 rounds on the humanoid target, 2 in the chest and one in the head. Then put one round on each of the steel. Steel was at about 15 yards give or take and had 2 10 inch circles, 1 hanging and one on a fixed spring stand, 2 6 inch knock down targets on the ground, a 4, 6 and 8 inch hanging circles as well. The last target was about a 50 percent IPSC steel on a post about 35 yards out. Shooters were told to load and make ready and then shoot the course starting with the humanoid paper, the far steel was a bonus for 3 seconds off your time, you were given two runs and the fastest run counted.

Next up was the cold bore shot, and a bonus shot. Shooters were laid under a canopy one at a time and told where the targets were, they were hidden in the woods and in the shadows at 500 and 600 yards. Shooters were given 2 shots at 500, 3 points for a first round hit at 500 or 2 points for a second round hit. If you hit the 500 yard target you were then allowed to shoot at the 600 yard target. Again, 3 points for a first round hit at 6 and 2 points if you used a second round and hit. If you didnt hit the 500 yard target there were no attempts allowed at 600.

After you got up from your CBS you moved on to a concrete bench to the paper targets, the only ones used in the match. From the concrete benches the paper targets were approximately 175yards out and were a single sheet of paper with 12 NRA bullseyes ( I think they were small bore targets), each shooter was to fire 1 round at any 5 bullseyes that they wanted to.

Next up was the truck, and old flatbed positioned so you could shoot off the bed of the truck over a smoldering fire to engage a set of 6 swinging targets diminishing in size. These lollipops were partially obscured from your sight by the crops planted in the field if you shot out of the prone from the back of the truck. Had a shooter shot from the standing on kneeling they probably would have a better target presentation, but would it have been as steady as shooting from prone probably not. I cant give the target size on these because I am not sure, I never really saw the targets but shot to where I thought that they were.

4th stage was the no line of sight shot. Shooters were given 30 seconds to find the targets and their relationship to each other. There was a 10x17 inch target on a raised stick that was visible out of the firing position and a larger target that was not visible from the firing position that was your target. The hold on this target was 3 mils down, and 2.5 mils left, shooters could either dial their scopes and hold dead on the target that they could see, OR hold it in their scopes and have the crosshairs basically off in space. Target distance was 500 yards. Shooters were given three attempts at this target.

Last and final stage of the day was called dot dot. Targets at 90, 175, 240, and 425 approximately. Shooters were back in the same spot that the first stage was shot from, roughly 90 yards out there was a 6inch steel target, at the next distance was a 4 inch spinner, followed by an 8 inch circle, and lastly a 10 inch circle. Shooter was allowed to dial for any range that he wanted to PRIOR to engaging the first target, once the first target was engaged shooter was not allowed to touch his knobs and dial for distance simple hold overs were to be used to engage the remaining targets.

Ok, now that I have explained the day Ill give my thoughts and feelings on the overall experience.

I was out of my element somewhat at this match, I am used to shooting in two man teams and being given corrections from my partner to get me on target. The match had spotters but they were simply calling hit or miss, and were simply more of a scorekeeper than a spotter. I am not the greatest at calling the wind and would have liked the help of a spotter to make the wind calls for me and give me a correction when I was off due to wind, my elevation on targets were correct, my windage, not so much. I learned that next time I need to take my time and get a better view of targets if I am not completely sure of where they are. I think that if I had stood up and looked thru my scope at the spinners off the back of the truck I would have seen where the target area was better and would have known how far down the "stem" to aim to his the target.

Overall organization for the match was kinda hectic and I think it could have been better. I am not sure exactly how I would have improved the organization but I think that there is room for improvement there. I understand that this is Johns 3rd match and I am sure with time the organization will come around.

I enjoyed my experience there and had a fun time, I do wish I would have shot more than just 25 rounds of rifle. I would have liked to have shot more than that, closer to 45 or 50 would be perfectly fine for me. I think that with time limits on each stage the flow could have been better, often times I found myself saying to the other guys I was with "Wow I havent heard a shot in a while". I also think that a two man team match would be more enjoyable for me and my hit count would improve.

Would I be back? I dont know, it was fun like I said but for only shooting 25 rounds each rifle and pistol, I could drive to my home range here in Ga for that and not have the 15 hours of ride time involved.

By the way, John, Glen, Rob, and others, THANK YOU for having me out, and thank you for the job that you all did.
 

J.Boyette

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    Re: JST AAR

    Thank you for the honest review.

    I see some great points we need to work on, and some stuff we do right.

    Just for a little background.

    I do not offer a spotter for the shooter at this time because we only have a 600yd range. Within that distance its not hard to get hits.

    With that typed, I am going to include a spotter in more shots, I just need to find a solid way to do it, and not kill more time.

    The time issue is a real one. We try to speed it up, but keep it fair at the same time. The biggest issue we have is target ID with match shooters. So many people are use to shooting on a square range where its all right in front of them.

    Thanks for the AAR as I read your post again I will look it over and reply again with more detail.

    John
     

    pacomdiver

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    Re: JST AAR

    no spotter just makes you have to be more proficient judging wind, hold off,etc and know your rifle and have accurate dope to back it up


    target id? like the 500 yard coldbore that was almost invisible? just remember the bad guys wont be wearing white, orange or yellow

    granted this one had less shots that the Jan one (45), but we wasted 3 hours on the pistol segment, but you need to be proficient with your sidearm if the need arises
     

    branson1369

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  • Oct 6, 2008
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    Re: JST AAR

    Cold bore IMO was one of the best stages especially with the way they blended into the background. The opponent surely does not want to be seen let alone the recipiant of 168 gr of fun

    Overall Outstanding match!
     

    Outsydlooknin75

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    Re: JST AAR

    John, make things a team match ...... allow a second "shooter" be the spotter. The 4 of us that came up would have worked together to make us teams ...... Shooter 1 shoots, and the other guys spots, then when the spotter is up to shoot, shooter 1 is now the spotter. It doesnt take any more time to do it that way.

    The SOTIC boys were taking plenty of time with their PDA's and inputting data and such. Which that is fine for practice, but at a match I think that needs to be kept to a minimum. The one gentleman made the comment on the dot dot stage after he missed on the middle target with both rounds "I came 3 hours, Im gonna shoot some more" Glenn said no problem, which is cool, but there were was still half the shooters still to shoot. None of the shots had any movement to get into position to shoot it .... it was basically here is the target, shoot it. I dont see why there couldnt have been a 2 minute time limit per stage to keep everything flowing and to put a little more pressure on people.

    Another thought on a spotter, the no line of sight shot, Rob said that my elevation was spot on .... windage was off, if I would have had a correction of a half mil then I wouldnt have wasted all 3 rounds shooting at that target.

    Please dont take anything that I have said as a negative but rather as simply my thoughts and how if I was holding the match I would have done things differently. I also feel that it is nice to shoot matches outside of my norm.

    If you have the opportunity we would love for you to make it down to one of our matches in the future, the next one being July 17/18th.
     

    J.Boyette

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    Re: JST AAR

    Outsydlooknin75,

    No bitching I see, just a honest talk about a fun day
    wink.gif


    The issue with the spotter as a shooter in a team, and that spotter gets to shoot, is many when you are going for a score.

    1. He gets to dope the wind off the shooter
    2. IF the "shooter" mis-ranges the target the spotter gets the right range, or learns whats not to use.
    3. The spotter gets to test his ideas on the shooter and then gets a unfair advantage over the "first" round shooters.

    So these are my issues with a spotter.

    The more and more I think of the team match, with both team members shooting the same COF, I do not like it at all. I have seen many a bad thing come from this.

    I talked with the SOTIC guys, and told them my thoughts on the PDA stuff.

    On the LOS shot, there are ways to make that hit in wind, without seeing the wind. Its real easy once someone shows you how.

    All you got to do is read the main direction, see the width of the target, and hold to its side in the wind the 1/2 wind you would of held and you would of made the hits all three times. By using the targets width to your advantage.

    What happened is people adjusted for the offset, but not wind direction + offset.

    John
     

    J.Boyette

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  • Nov 13, 2003
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    Re: JST AAR

    BTW,

    I have to work the weekend of the match. So let me know as they come up.

    John
     

    Ratbert

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    Re: JST AAR

    The biggest thing I learned at ASC is that, while it is an individually scored event, you were at a distinct disadvantage if you didn't find a partner and work as a team the whole weekend.

    By having a teammate to discuss things with, figure out a plan of attack, and then engage you greatly increase your odds of getting a first round hit and, even at ASC where the "scorekeeper" will give you corrections, having a partner looking greatly increases the odds of getting a good correction for a followup if you miss. Typically the way I saw it work best was for partners to switch off and on being the wind dummy. True, half the time you might just be throwing one out into a 45mph just to get an idea of what the hell is going on, but your odds of getting a hit are no worse than if you had been working alone and probably a bit better just because you had someone to help verify range and discuss wind call with before firing. And the other half of the time you should have a greatly increased chance of a first round hit thanks to your partner "repaying" your previous sacrifice.

    But... ASC consists of something like 60 stages spread over 2 days and a wide variety of shooting conditions with targets, more often than not, @ 800-1100yds in wickedly evil winds. In a competition that large there is time for the advantages of teamwork to play out. Also ASC has the luxury of having large enough shooting positions to allow multiple (if not all) teams to prepare to engage the target simultaneously. Time spent at most competitions standing around waiting for "your turn" is time spent at ASC formulating a plan with your partner.

    At a smaller 1-day event with MAYBE 7-8 stages, with shots under 600yds, and typically only room for 1 or 2 shooters to see the target at any one time the shots just aren't setup for gaining any advantage from "teamwork." These shots are almost purely a test of your ability to put the cross hairs over the target and properly manipulate the trigger. A spotter isn't going to help with that and a wind-call @ Glenn's shouldn't be rocket science.

    Unless a hurricane comes storming thru or you back your ass back up to the silo for a shot, the universal wind call @ Glenn's is: "2-4mph, 0 to 1/3value wind. <600yd shot, 2+ MOA target. Hold center mass and send it." I know Adam held zero wind the entire day and had only two misses, and those were on the 180yd bench dots, so it sure as hell wasn't the wind's fault.

    I do agree, however, that the LOS shot either needed the score keeper to call corrections or needed to just be a 1-shot deal. In that situation without a correction if your first round misses you're just firing 2 more off with a wing and a prayer. And if you weren't able to properly use your reticle to get the first hit then having a correction isn't going to unfairly give you an advantage for the followup because you're still going to have to use the same reticle to hold the correction.
     

    ajwcotton

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    Re: JST AAR

    My thoughts on the match are that the pistol took a really long time for a relatively short stage,the course of fire for the pistols was fine, but like I said it took what I think a relatively long time. If you are going to do the same course twice I think it would have been a little better if everyone went once and then reset while they waited for their next go. That and have people who are coming up next be completely ready when they get to the firing position.
    The Rifle portion, I really liked the cold bore shots they put a premium on target detection which I think in a tactical match should be stressed more. Also the dot drill, I like the dot drill generally, I think it is a much better gauge of the shooter than a five shot group, in my opinion a five shot group challenges the rifle it's self and the dot drill puts all the stress on the shooter. one thing I don't like is that it was shot off a bench, I just personally hate shooting off a bench.
    The next stage off the back of the truck was a good one I thought, for me I held where the target was even though it was obscured by veg. I think that instills confidence of knowing where your bullet is going to go no matter what you are aiming at. For me I know that my bullet is going to hit that target because I already have confidence in my weapons system and dope.
    The third stage, the non line of sight target. For me that was a really easy stage. The target was a full 5 MOA tall by 3.8 MOA wide that is a HEGE target for a match. My dope for the range is 2.7 mils, the hold for the target was right at 3 mils so all I did was dial .3 mils on my scope and hold 2.5 left, presto 3 hits. I know it is not nearly that easy if you are running MOA, but the conversion is as easy as milsX3.4 and do the same process.
    The last stage, 2 shots at dots at UKD using only holds this comes down to knowing you weapons system and being able to properly use a mil reticle I'm using a GAP reticle and for me it is a breeze to hold to a tenth of a mill. Once again these were not small targets all well over 2 MOA from prone with no time restraints so in my opinion not that tough at all however with people with SFP scopes or MOA adjustments it comes down to making sure your scope is on the proper power and knowing MOA and MIL dope.

    One more thing, I don't think that on this particular range a spotter would be of that much use, I think it is much better practice to use things around you to judge wind if you can't yet read mirage, There are lots of trees and plants which are great wind indicators, they also block a lot of the wind from even getting to the shooting lanes. as far as elevation corrections on a max range shot of 600 for this range I don't think it is unreasonable to think most people will have solid DOPE out to 600, any way I agree with ratbert on the spotter

    Overall I think that it was a good match, I would have liked to have seen maybe a timed stage move to a position, ID target set up and take shot in like 2 minutes and not just from prone, maybe from a barricade or a roof simulator. Also maybe sitting back up against something or weak hand all make for a more realistic Tactical Match. I think a hostage target would be cool too just my thoughts. All in all good job John, Glenn and crew.

    Thanks,
    Adam
     

    pacomdiver

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    Re: JST AAR

    ajw, you shouldve been at the Jan match, it had a barricade segment and a hostage segment shot from the top of a conex box, so that is essentially a rooftop shot.
     

    Ratbert

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    Re: JST AAR

    Well, shooting off the top of a flat conex box is a fair bit simpler than shooting off of a pitched roof. And 6 yds to a melon probably wasn't what he had in mind. But yeah, we need to build a bit of pitched roof to mount on top of that conex and take some 180yd shots at the 2 and 3 in swingers...
     

    J.Boyette

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  • Nov 13, 2003
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    Re: JST AAR

    guys,

    Nothing posted has not been done already in the last 4 matches.

    I will not repeat the same match over and over again, and have the same shoot.

    Keep the thoughts flowing, and keep the ideas up.

    But 7 of the 11 skill sets tested in this last match have not been talked about. Most of the 7 skill sets where not performed by the shooters.

    John
     

    HumpHammrr

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    Re: JST AAR

    What are the "Skill Sets" you are refering to? Are they posted elsewhere? I would like to participate in one of the upcoming JST shoots and would like for tips to practice on in my range training sessions.
     

    J.Boyette

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  • Nov 13, 2003
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    Re: JST AAR

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hammrr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are the "Skill Sets" you are refering to? Are they posted elsewhere? I would like to participate in one of the upcoming JST shoots and would like for tips to practice on in my range training sessions. </div></div>

    Yes sir!!!

    Pistol:
    <ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*] Proper Trigger control[*] Proper grip [*] Sight alignment and sight picture[/list]

    Rifle:
    <ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*] Target acquisition and natural point of aim ( CBS and Bonus )[*] Proper parallax, ocular focus through out a range of distance and natural point of aim ( Paper Dots ) [*] Adjustment and use of positional shooting positions ( Truck shot )[*] Understanding of off line of site shooting wile target in defilade ( line of shot drill )[*] Use of the 250yd / 300yd ZERO setting on the riflescope for fast Multiple target engagement ( got dots )[/list]

    From my notes; notes taken from Rob and Glen many of these training techniques where not used. Does that make the shooter wrong? Not at all, what it does do is direct my training of students to use these skill sets to have faster, and better target engagements wile thinking on what is my best position and setting to maximize target engagement.

    I see a lot of people training cookie cutter blocks of instruction around my neck of the woods that does not include thinking on the shooters part. This is a real issue in my world; I have shooters from all types of disciplines and trained from different approaches. Most of this training is weak in target acquisition and speed engagement. If all you do is go to classes that teach supported prone wile dialing DOPE you need to open your mind up A LOT and see the other side of target engagement.

    As always the best thinking rifleman come from a crew served weapon platform’s. The background of medium machinegun crew drill training and types of point and area suppressive fire opens there mind to what a bullet can do when you adjust the T&E. But that’s a different subject on this topic.

    I would like to read what the people that shot this match think about my findings and how if they would of known these topics of training could of helped / hurt them in engaging the targets at distance.

    John Boyette
    Individual Marksmanship Training LLC
    www.marksmanshiptraining.com
    Replacing Luck For Eight Years
     

    BobinNC

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    Re: JST AAR

    I did not attend the last match due to some health issues. But, I can say this about John's training classes. It's not just about teaching you his way to shoot.

    John teaches you how to think, and how to use new ways to approach hitting a target, quickly. IMT is well worth the price of admission.

    See you all next match,

    Bob
     

    J.Boyette

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  • Nov 13, 2003
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    Re: JST AAR

    Bob,

    Whats up?

    You and Ratbert both have taken classes from me, and you two know what I am talking about.

    The difference between having tools to use in a unknown situation is more important than the type of rifle you use, or even the caliber.

    This is why I love to train with 22lr's to learn how to do XYZ and then apply it to the centerfire SWS.

    John