How do the Minox and Kahles stack up to NF ATACR or NX8? Thanks
Durability, repeatability and glass are my priorities ,
Durability, repeatability and glass are my priorities ,
Rifle Scopes Kahles V Minox V NF
- Thread starter deersniper
- Start date
I would put ATACR glass in between Minox and Kahles, probably closer to the Minox. NX8 is not in the same league.
I love my Kahles. Some people complain about CA but I just don’t see it, maybe I’m blind. I also love NF ATACR’s but only the MIL -C reticle. I know nothing about the NX8’s, never used one.
Durability, I think they are all pretty good. Nx8 is probably a tier or two down from the others.
Kahles always scores very high on tracking and repeatability.
Of those three, I choose kahles every time. But not at the $3k range they want for it. That’s zco money and zco blows them away.
For $2500, kahles all day.
Kahles always scores very high on tracking and repeatability.
Of those three, I choose kahles every time. But not at the $3k range they want for it. That’s zco money and zco blows them away.
For $2500, kahles all day.
I agree with this. I think 3k is too much for the K5-25, 25000-2600 is more in line. It’s a fantastic scope and the SKMr3 is awesome. I also like the MSR2
Well said. Kahles makes a awesome scope. Really the scopes you mentioned are all very good. For 3k, you may as well buck up the w tea 500-600 and get a ZCO. They really are that much nicer. What ever you decide, I’m sure you will be happy with.
I have heard of more tracking issues and zero shift issues with kahles than any other that you have listed. I have owned an atacr and minox and the minox glass blows away the 5x25 atacr but not the 7x35. I think minox has suffered from some qc issues that may or may not have been addressed.
I have heard way to many stories about kahles scopes to trust one, that being said many people shoot them with great success.
You can find minox for around 2200 and they have the best parallax and mag zoom. Very smooth and parallax free just about past 300 yards. I have felt some with great turrets and some with mushy turrets but I never had a tracking issue with mine and neither did two friends who own one either.
for about 2500 5x25 atacr is probably the most durable and trustworthy but the glass and parallax doesn’t compare to the minox.
If you go up close to 3k you could get a 7x35 nightforce atacr which is an outstanding scope but for about 500 more you could get a zco which is new to market but is exceptional. I was very impressed with how robust they feel and they look great. Outstanding turrets and parallax knob and zoom.
min the end I think they will all do what you need and a lot of people let the reticle be the deciding factor. I think the minox MR4 is hard to beat but really like the zco mpct 2. The lines a just a hair thicker than I’d like but the reticle has absolutely everything you would need.
I have heard way to many stories about kahles scopes to trust one, that being said many people shoot them with great success.
You can find minox for around 2200 and they have the best parallax and mag zoom. Very smooth and parallax free just about past 300 yards. I have felt some with great turrets and some with mushy turrets but I never had a tracking issue with mine and neither did two friends who own one either.
for about 2500 5x25 atacr is probably the most durable and trustworthy but the glass and parallax doesn’t compare to the minox.
If you go up close to 3k you could get a 7x35 nightforce atacr which is an outstanding scope but for about 500 more you could get a zco which is new to market but is exceptional. I was very impressed with how robust they feel and they look great. Outstanding turrets and parallax knob and zoom.
min the end I think they will all do what you need and a lot of people let the reticle be the deciding factor. I think the minox MR4 is hard to beat but really like the zco mpct 2. The lines a just a hair thicker than I’d like but the reticle has absolutely everything you would need.
Just goes to show how Experience’s can vary greatly. About 8 or 9 of us down here offloaded minox for zero shift and tracking issues.
Owned all 3 and still own the NF 7-35.
Minox glass will be the best of the 3. NF will have the best durability and repeat-ability. I prefer the NF glass over the Kahles.
I would take the K624 over the K525. The FOV in the K525 is pretty bad above x15. The spacing on clicks is also much closer together on the K525 than the K624. The k525 does have better glass than the k624. I could never really get accustom to using the Kahles. The Kahles has a way more sensitive parallax than the Minox and NF 7-35 in my opinion.
Minox glass will be the best of the 3. NF will have the best durability and repeat-ability. I prefer the NF glass over the Kahles.
I would take the K624 over the K525. The FOV in the K525 is pretty bad above x15. The spacing on clicks is also much closer together on the K525 than the K624. The k525 does have better glass than the k624. I could never really get accustom to using the Kahles. The Kahles has a way more sensitive parallax than the Minox and NF 7-35 in my opinion.
With the brands you're talking about, as with most scope topics there's a lot of personal preference. I'm not sure what mag range you're looking at but if you're talking Minox ZP5 5-25, Kahles 6-24 or 5-25 and ATACR F1 5-25 or 7-35 I'd go the 7-35. If the 7-35 is out of the price range or weight/length criteria then Id lean to Minox as the second option.
NF- I really enjoy the features of the ATACR and overall feel. The 7-35 with the close focus is very nice, but there is a bit of lower end tunneling and the rotating ocular, so if those are deal breakers maybe its not the right choice. I wouldn't say the ATACR is the "best glass" out there but I'm no scientist so for me its still darn good and is more than capable of getting the job done across many applications. Of the three options you've mentioned I prefer the ATACR 7-35 glass over the rest. The NF brand is proven and durable so that would check a few boxes from your criteria. If you're shopping top tiers from the 3 brands you mentioned I wouldn't look at the NX8 unless weight is a concern. Not trying to degrade the NX8 its just not in the same class as the others.
Kahles- I really love the feel of the Kahles product, specifically the 5-25, but every one I had was glowing with purple CA so I cant personally go with them. Like what @Dthomas3523 referenced there are just better options at their price points although they do seem to be dropping to a more reasonable price point.
Minox- The Minox ZP5 with the MR4 is a very nice feeling scope, really has the sleek German refined feel similar to the Schmidt and great glass with a precise reticle. Very crisp illumination that doesnt bleed at all, that was impressive to me. Although the ZP5 felt great the controls for the parallax and elevation turret would the best feeling when actually using them. I just prefer other brands operations over the Minox, but the MR4 is solid.
Alot of nit picking above, all of these get the job done and have great reticle/feature offerings I think it just comes down to what you're going for. Glass is always the fun topic as eyes determine alot of "how good" it is. Not to throw another in the mix but Schmidt is a solid option especially for the current prices, if you can live with the low end tunneling on the 5-25. I share the perspective that @blbennett1288 just posted as well, well done!
NF- I really enjoy the features of the ATACR and overall feel. The 7-35 with the close focus is very nice, but there is a bit of lower end tunneling and the rotating ocular, so if those are deal breakers maybe its not the right choice. I wouldn't say the ATACR is the "best glass" out there but I'm no scientist so for me its still darn good and is more than capable of getting the job done across many applications. Of the three options you've mentioned I prefer the ATACR 7-35 glass over the rest. The NF brand is proven and durable so that would check a few boxes from your criteria. If you're shopping top tiers from the 3 brands you mentioned I wouldn't look at the NX8 unless weight is a concern. Not trying to degrade the NX8 its just not in the same class as the others.
Kahles- I really love the feel of the Kahles product, specifically the 5-25, but every one I had was glowing with purple CA so I cant personally go with them. Like what @Dthomas3523 referenced there are just better options at their price points although they do seem to be dropping to a more reasonable price point.
Minox- The Minox ZP5 with the MR4 is a very nice feeling scope, really has the sleek German refined feel similar to the Schmidt and great glass with a precise reticle. Very crisp illumination that doesnt bleed at all, that was impressive to me. Although the ZP5 felt great the controls for the parallax and elevation turret would the best feeling when actually using them. I just prefer other brands operations over the Minox, but the MR4 is solid.
Alot of nit picking above, all of these get the job done and have great reticle/feature offerings I think it just comes down to what you're going for. Glass is always the fun topic as eyes determine alot of "how good" it is. Not to throw another in the mix but Schmidt is a solid option especially for the current prices, if you can live with the low end tunneling on the 5-25. I share the perspective that @blbennett1288 just posted as well, well done!
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I traded a 4-45 bender for a 3-18 kahles and 5-25 minox. I’m a NF fan buy was told they are better. Debating keeping them or trading/selling.
I do like the nx8s that everyone doesn’t though.
I do have a bender 5-25 coming in that I traded a Steiner for but I guess my eyes are used to the Nightforce glass, the last bender seemed like t had a brown ring to the lenses. Where and seems crisper more “blue” if that makes sense
I do like the nx8s that everyone doesn’t though.
I do have a bender 5-25 coming in that I traded a Steiner for but I guess my eyes are used to the Nightforce glass, the last bender seemed like t had a brown ring to the lenses. Where and seems crisper more “blue” if that makes sense
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I am a ATACR fan for sure, I didn't love my K624i but it wasn't bad. I have no experience with the Minox, but would like to try one at some point. But a scope not on your list that is admittedly kind of long in the tooth but IMO is still the best bang for the buck (given its fallen out of favor and used prices are so low) is the PMII 5-25X56 in whatever turret and reticle you like. Strictly my opinion so take it as such, for around $2100-$2300 used in good shape nothing can compete.
That’s so disappointing to hear about the Minox. It has so many great features and the potential to be one of the top scopes on the market but If your scope doesn’t track and the zero shifts it doesn’t matter how good the glass is. I wish they would address these issues.
The 5x25 atacr is right in the price range you seem to be looking at. The glass when I compared them seemed to be close to a gen2 razor. I was a little underwhelmed, I switched to the minox shortly after that. I haven’t heard first hand of anyone’s atacr not tracking or zero shifting. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. But in my opinion those are the two most important things to think about when buying a scope.
I now shoot a tangent theta because I have 100 percent confidence in the scope but that is a lot of money to drop on a scope. You can find them for about 4K. So if you can scrape up the extra 1500 that scope has everything you could possibly want.
The 5x25 atacr is right in the price range you seem to be looking at. The glass when I compared them seemed to be close to a gen2 razor. I was a little underwhelmed, I switched to the minox shortly after that. I haven’t heard first hand of anyone’s atacr not tracking or zero shifting. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. But in my opinion those are the two most important things to think about when buying a scope.
I now shoot a tangent theta because I have 100 percent confidence in the scope but that is a lot of money to drop on a scope. You can find them for about 4K. So if you can scrape up the extra 1500 that scope has everything you could possibly want.
I hear people complain about the Kahles for the price, which I agree retail is high but I see retail for the NF at above 3k for the 5-25 and 3600 for the 7-35, schmidt is also above 3k for most PMII's. If the ZCO blows all these scopes away, why is anyone buying anything else? Is everyone referencing the used market for the s and b NF and Kahles? I see the Kahles 525 selling for 2300-2500 used, s and b 5-25 pmII's about the same and NF 5-25 2400-2600 and the 7-35 2800-3100 depending on reticle. I'm seriously thinking about buying a ZCO, was very underwhelmed with the ATACR's ive owned and liked the PMII much more. I really like Kahles as well but I don't see CA apparently and I'm left handed so the Kahles scores big points for me. The PMII is frustrating with the reticle options, but loved everything about the scope. It's hard to decide when these things cost as much as a goo used car!
Optically speaking the Kahles is sub-par compared to the NF and Minox. I’ve also heard of more mechanical issues with them than others. Between the Atacr and ZP5, optically I’d lean ZP5 but I prefer the turrets on the Atacr. Pick either, neither will disappoint. I personally run both Schmidt and Minox, and have several of each.
I can’t justify the price of a Tangent or ZCO. I don’t think there is really *anything* that offers much more than a razor 2, and they sell for $1500 here all day. $3600-4000+ is silly lol.
I can’t justify the price of a Tangent or ZCO. I don’t think there is really *anything* that offers much more than a razor 2, and they sell for $1500 here all day. $3600-4000+ is silly lol.
What do you mean by hard?
While I don't doubt people have had issues with them, you hear way more about the ones that go wrong as opposed to the ones that are perfect. Thinking all of them are bad is ridiculous.
I've run one for two years with no issues. @just browsing
Shooting all through out the rev range and confirming zero. Just not babying it.
It's been on my primary match rifle for almost four years now. It's been to numerous field matches, in all kinds of weather, terrain, environments. I have had ZERO issues with it. It's gone from 100 yards to 1685+ and everywhere in between in rain, snow, dry dusty conditions, mud, and I know I'm not the only one.
Of the scopes listed, I have the Minox, a NF 7-35, and have spent considerable time behind the Kahles. My ranking goes Minox>>>NF>>>>>>>>>>Kahles. A lot of you guys dumping on the Minox are ignoring the fact that a lot of people were sending their Kahles back because they weren't tracking for shit. The glass on the Kahles is subpar compared to the other two. It's not a terrible scope, but I see a lot of people ignoring the issues Kahles has had over the years.
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So @Dthomas3523 had a relatively large sample size with 8-9 scopes kick the bucket.
I have had four so far and two have them have had issues. Like I said before in another thread, Minox QC struggles to actually do their job.
Edit: I love my Minox more than any other scope I have/had except for my TT (that’s including NF).
I have had four so far and two have them have had issues. Like I said before in another thread, Minox QC struggles to actually do their job.
Edit: I love my Minox more than any other scope I have/had except for my TT (that’s including NF).
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I like my Minox, but I really like my Premier 5-25... Real shame about them... TT in my futrue.
I'm with Kahles and have both a 318 and 525, after i was running S&B 5-25.
And i really like those Kahles, they are both gen 3 SKMR 3 and i have zero issues with them.
I had a talk with a representative from Swarovski ( who owns Kahles ) and he told me, that they in fact had some issues with the mechanics, but the majority of these issues, was related to the mounts people are using and rings that has been tightened way more than the 21 lbs recommended as max torque.
I run mine in Spuhr mounts and there has never been any problems with tracking or return to zero.
And i really like those Kahles, they are both gen 3 SKMR 3 and i have zero issues with them.
I had a talk with a representative from Swarovski ( who owns Kahles ) and he told me, that they in fact had some issues with the mechanics, but the majority of these issues, was related to the mounts people are using and rings that has been tightened way more than the 21 lbs recommended as max torque.
I run mine in Spuhr mounts and there has never been any problems with tracking or return to zero.
Had K318, it was great scope. Shot accurately, clicks were good, but shooting with snow on the ground it was so purple was distracting. Great scope, but for that kind of money unacceptable.
I have a 525i in a spuhr qdp mount. Zeroed it, shot 15 rounds of 6br, pulled it off moved it to my 280 ai found zero shot 25 rounds pulled it put it back on the 6 br dialed back to zero and shot a 6 round half moa group with a perfect wind and elevation. I will run a box test here in the next few days but from what I see it tracks fine. So did my 624I, ATACR's and my PM2. I get the glass thing but all these seem to be pretty damn reliable scopes.
Compared to Nightforce the Kahles is like looking through a vintage milk bottle, and your lucky if the Minox turrets are still working at the end of your first range trip.
Next question.
I'm joking, of course. Owned all three, my favorite is Nightforce, but they were all great scopes. If you can't hit it with one, then you probably aren't going to with one of the others.
Next question.
I'm joking, of course. Owned all three, my favorite is Nightforce, but they were all great scopes. If you can't hit it with one, then you probably aren't going to with one of the others.
I think if you get a good minox they are tough to beat. But that’s if you get a good one. I had one that I sold for a s and b because my 10 year old son struggled with a center dot reticle he much prefers the h2cmr. It’s a nice scope but I really do miss my minox. My buddy still has his and has never had an issue. He’s pretty rough on stuff also. We shot the hornady prc match last year in Utah/Wyoming area and shot some real long distances and the scope ran flawlessly. I’m going to get shit on for this but his turrets are the best I’ve ever felt on any scope. Even tangent thetas. But every single minox I’ve felt, at least 6, has had a slightly different turret feel.
My current Minox is gold in terms of turrent feel but it doesn’t near my TT.
NF < QF.
Let that sink in for a min.
NF < QF.
Let that sink in for a min.
My Minox turrets feel fine, but you're right, they aren't equal to my TT. Of course, my TT was almost $2k more. I can't say whether it's worth $2K more, though. That's such a hard question to answer whenever someone asks
Quigley Ford? Shirley you jest
| QF | Qatar Foundation |
| QF | Quail Forever |
| QF | Quality Factor |
| QF | Qantas Airways Ltd (Australia, IATA airline code) |
| QF | Quick Facts (US Census Bureau) |
| QF | Qualifying Facility |
| QF | Quick Fix |
| QF | Qantas Flight (number) |
| QF | Quick-Firing |
| QF | Query File |
| QF | QuakeForge |
| QF | Qods Force (Iran) |
| QF | Qualified Facility |
| QF | Quantity Frequency |
| QF | Queue Full |
| QF | Quantum Feedback |
| QF | Quantize-And-Forward |
| QF | Quench Frequency |
I've shot one of mine in 4 matches plus a handful of range days. Holds zero, tracks great, does everything I tell it. The one Minox I had that *did* have an issue was an issue from day 1. They replaced it with a new one. I just had to have one of my Schmidts elevation turret fixed, and a buddy had to have an Atacr turret rebuilt and some internals replaced this month. I think they can all fail. Best to keep a backup on hand if you can afford it.
I've had multiples of all 3. My opinion....the Leupold mk5 is my choice. The illumination may be the only thing up in the air at this point for me. None of them are perfect in every way.
K624i beats any NF glass in my opinion, the k318i is one of the finest scopes I’ve ever used and a step above the k624i that’s just my opinion.
I haven’t dragged my ZP5 through the mud, but it’s been flawless for the few months I’ve owned it. I spin the turrets constantly.
@lte82 - great point! The razor offers an excellent set of features for the price as . Flipping crazy price. I think beyond razor gen 2 pricing you begin to really pay for specific features and preferences as a few mentioned above. Many great options out there and a really good time to be a picky consumer and get what you want.
Do your research and see what the top PRS shooters are using.
I don’t give a shit who sponsors more shooters (Vortex).
OP asked a question about glass and I responded having used all three.
I actually like the ATACR more than Minox overall but the Minox has better glass.
Beat me to it. I've been shooting well before PRS was even founded and before there were any "pros". According to the logic of "what the pros use", Vortex is 3x the scope Tangent Theta is. I have several friends who are on Team Burris. At no point would they say the XTR3 is better just because they were either given it or got it at a discounted price.
There really aren’t that many guys getting free Vortex. I know more that aren’t sponsored who use them than who are sponsored.
The razor is a proven optic.
You’re right, I didn’t mean that as a knock against the Razor. I have one and it’s superb. Just mentioned them because they are most popular.
I thought I was responding to the OP, I clicked reply in your comment by mistake.
In regards to sponsorships, I find it hard to believe that the top professional shooters would use a certain optic because they get them for free, that would be somewhat counter productive. At that level why would you use a sub par product that can cost you top 5 just because you get it for free.
Besides, I was only advising the OP to do his own research instead of getting advise from people who are biased towards certain brands or the flavor of the week.
Ive got 2 ZP5's one replaced a k525. I just couldn't get past the CA on the Kahles for the 3k mark.
It’s the law of diminishing returns. Where are you spend 100% more for something that’s 10% better lol.
Ive had the Gen II Razors, 5-25 S&Bs, AMGs, NF Atacrs, Kahles 3-18s and 5-25s. And Minox ZP5s.
didnt care for the weight on the Razors, but actually preferred their glass over the 5-25 ATACR.
Not my 4-16 though. Didn’t run them long enough to have serious problems.
Had 3 Gen II XR 5-25 S&B and two of those bit the dust and were sent back to Germany and replaced with new scopes. Didn’t have any mechanical issues with the Kahles but CA bothers me. One of the 3-18s wasn’t bad at all. The other 3-18 and both my 5-25s had too much CA for a scope in the 3k range. I’ve got 6 Minox ZP5s now and while two are still NIB waiting on rifles
4 are mounted and if I have an issue I’ll report it. But haven’t had an issue yet, and on all 4 of them, the turrets feel great. The oldest one I have has went hunting, been in bad weather, went to matches, bounced around in the truck, dialing from 100-1350 and back all weekend long
many times. Everything keeps working, and the glass is the best I’ve owned. I’ve not owed ZCO or TT and would like too. But performance per dollar, I’ll be rocking my Minoxs and AMGs.
only Issue with my ZP5s so far is the scopes length keeps me from mounting my PVS30
on some rifles. That may cause me to change some out for shorter scopes, but I doubt I’ll be
going back Kahles. Everyone can have problems with a certain brand. Dthomas certainly has a reason for not choosing a MiNox just as I have one for S&B. And the next guy for NF, Vortex, or Kahles. If it’s man made, has tits or wheels, sooner or later it’s gonna cause you problems.
didnt care for the weight on the Razors, but actually preferred their glass over the 5-25 ATACR.
Not my 4-16 though. Didn’t run them long enough to have serious problems.
Had 3 Gen II XR 5-25 S&B and two of those bit the dust and were sent back to Germany and replaced with new scopes. Didn’t have any mechanical issues with the Kahles but CA bothers me. One of the 3-18s wasn’t bad at all. The other 3-18 and both my 5-25s had too much CA for a scope in the 3k range. I’ve got 6 Minox ZP5s now and while two are still NIB waiting on rifles
4 are mounted and if I have an issue I’ll report it. But haven’t had an issue yet, and on all 4 of them, the turrets feel great. The oldest one I have has went hunting, been in bad weather, went to matches, bounced around in the truck, dialing from 100-1350 and back all weekend long
many times. Everything keeps working, and the glass is the best I’ve owned. I’ve not owed ZCO or TT and would like too. But performance per dollar, I’ll be rocking my Minoxs and AMGs.
only Issue with my ZP5s so far is the scopes length keeps me from mounting my PVS30
on some rifles. That may cause me to change some out for shorter scopes, but I doubt I’ll be
going back Kahles. Everyone can have problems with a certain brand. Dthomas certainly has a reason for not choosing a MiNox just as I have one for S&B. And the next guy for NF, Vortex, or Kahles. If it’s man made, has tits or wheels, sooner or later it’s gonna cause you problems.
I had a chance to compare new Kahles and ZCO scopes at mile high a few days ago. To my eyes the ZCO was noticeably clearer and the coatings seemed to yeild a warmer, more true to life white balance where the Kahles had a bit of a cool/blue tint. I'll be picking up the ZCO this week I think.
Well OP, the responses here just about sum up what you’re going to find within the “alpha” class of scopes. They are all really good. We can all argue til the cows come home (and often do) about turret feel here and turret feel there, IQ here and there and how I had 17 scopes that all went to crap. At the end of the day there are horror stories for any model out long enough, there are lovers and haters. So pick the reticle and ergonomics you think will benefit the most with the type of shooting you will be doing and don’t look back. If you buy from a Hide dealer I think most all of them offer a return period as long as you don’t mount the scope and if you buy used as long as you don’t overpay you can probably turn it around with very little loss.
Which mk 5 are you running? I am looking at it as well.
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