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Kicking my own ass

Trigger Monkey

Ronin
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Apr 29, 2005
    4,162
    4,821
    Winchester Virginia
    So today started because at my local range I don't always get one of the bays where I can get 50 yards to use my normal rimfire practice targets and I wanted something I could put up at 25 yards that I could shoot with irons or an optic. Today's trip was really just fleshing out some ideas with different targets and taking notes on things I might change for later.

    20231126_211236.jpg


    I took my B14R in an AX AICS with one of those piece of shit XTRIII's on it using Norma Tac-22 ammo and to make today more funner, no bipods or rear bag, sling only, except for five position, which I shot from my tripod. The left side targets are based on a free Project Appleseed target I found and the right side targets are plays on my other target with five-position shoots, cold bore, and dot drill. The extra shots into the heads of the E2 targets were me playing around with the last 10 rounds I had.

    What did I learn? Basically, sling shooting ain't easy, it kicks my ass but it's a skillset I felt I needed to dust off and I'm glad I did. The Armageddon Gear PRS sling is still my favorite all-purpose sling, it's not perfect, but it will get the job done, no muss, no fuss.

    I didn't get any pics but I also modified some targets used in Norwegian stangskyting compeititons and sized them for 25 yards. I tried shooting it like they do in the stang matches but that gun isn't designed for that lol...nor am I. In those matches, competitors have 25 seconds to get as many rounds on target as possible and from what I saw most could do 12-13 with reloads thrown in, fat old me was getting like 6 or 7 lol. Hella fun though, might sub in those targets.

    1701053928480.png
     
    Norwegian Stangskyting rocks. Here's John Olav Agotnes. He's 74, and up until a couple of years ago dominated the sport and he's still a top contender. Notice the technique of operating the bolt by flipping it up with the top of the hand closing with the thumb and pulling the trigger with the middle finger. The gun is the Sauer 200 made specifically for the sport. The SIG is used by military competitors while civilians use the Sauer 200 or the Krag.

    John Olva Agotones with Sauer 200


    Krag, note the special speed loader.
     
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    Norwegian Stangskyting rocks. Here's John Olav Agotones. He's 74, and up until a couple of years ago dominated the sport and he's still a top contender. Notice the technique of operating the bolt by flipping it up with the top of the hand closing with the thumb and pulling the trigger with the middle finger. The gun is the Sauer 200 made specifically for the sport. The SIG is used by military competitors while civilians use the Sauer 200 or the Krag.

    John Olva Agotones with Sauer 200


    Krag, note the special speed loader.

    His mag changes/reloading are like buttah...
     
    I tried running the bolt like that but the typical 90’ bolt throw didn't seem conducive to that technique. I'm also checking out what I can find for felthurtigskyting matches, which is kinda similar but more "traditional" I guess where the shooter starts from standing, drops to prone, and engages three targets. Could be pretty fun with a .22.

     
    I tried running the bolt like that but the typical 90’ bolt throw didn't seem conducive to that technique. I'm also checking out what I can find for felthurtigskyting matches, which is kinda similar but more "traditional" I guess where the shooter starts from standing, drops to prone, and engages three targets. Could be pretty fun with a .22.


    Interesting that they didn't use the sling. But given the start position I guess isn't worth the loss of time to them.
     
    Interesting that they didn't use the sling. But given the start position I guess isn't worth the loss of time to them.
    Most do use a sling, but it is only attached to the forend and then a band around the upper arm, like in Olympic type shooting.

    1701065529374.png

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    Me, summer biathlon a couple weeks ago
    me run gun biathlon.JPG


    Me, Zurich Switzerland International competition, 43 years ago
    zurich me shooting.jpg
     
    Most do use a sling, but it is only attached to the forend and then a band around the upper arm, like in Olympic type shooting.

    View attachment 8282313
    View attachment 8282314

    Me, summer biathlon a couple weeks ago
    View attachment 8282315

    Me, Zurich Switzerland International competition, 43 years ago
    View attachment 8282316
    It looked like the ones starting in prone do but the felthurtigskyting starting at sort of a parade rest don't use it in @Trigger Monkey video.
     
    Have you had any formal sling training? Either way I am impressed with your left target sitting and prone groups.

    I quite enjoyed watching the mad minute style fast shooting. I incorporated a mad minute event into a monthly steel rimfire match I host. 10 each 2x6" steel flippers from 35-150 yards with 10-15 yards between them, shot prone or benched3 with bipod. So far the record is 35 seconds to hit all ten with just 1 shot per target.

    Everybody hates standing offhand, which is why I started shooting NRA silhouette as it's hard and frustrating, but also very rewarding depending on the day's results. I am constantly amazed how I forget how to shoot from week to week and have to remember to do the all the steps over again. I think I am going to print out a checklist because it always some little small thing that makes a huge difference in score
     
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    Shot match 22's as a kid, always like it when we have positional shooting in our centerfire matches.
     
    I watched a YouTube video once haha. No formal training per se, just years of getting out and shooting with a sling really.
    Try to find a Project Appleseed two day rifle clinic by you. Costs are very reasonable and quite frankly better, consistent training than I have received in some classes costing hundreds more


    This organization is geared to teaching 3/4 positional shooting using a sling, NPOA, and 6 steps. It is a fantastic introduction class for new shooters but really has a lot of information and techniques for everyone else as well. My first Appleseed class I went just to learn about the black magic of slingwork, but I got way more than I bargained for and it has helped my shooting in every other discipline. Kind of addicting though, I have attended at least one appleseed event yearly for the last five years. Your rifle would be perfect for this.
     
    I've thought about going to an Appleseed event but it doesn't look like there's anything close to me for a while.

    I made some adjustments today and deleted the coyote cold bore shot and went with the below:

    1701133789155.png

    Nordic Relay is based on the aforementioned felthurtigskyting course of fire in that I'd start from standing, move to prone, and engage with six rounds in the magazine. The dot drill isn't really different, I just blacked out the dots and I got rid of the zero check, if I need to check zero I'll use a different target. I also shrunk the E-silhouettes to simulate 400 yards with a 12" diameter zone in the chest. Everything else is pretty much unchanged though. If things cooperate I'll take them back out this weekend to test out with my Marlin Model 60 and maybe my Ruger 10/22.
     
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    I've thought about going to an Appleseed event but it doesn't look like there's anything close to me for a while.

    I made some adjustments today and deleted the coyote cold bore shot and went with the below:

    View attachment 8282895
    Nordic Relay is based on the aforementioned felthurtigskyting course of fire in that I'd start from standing, move to prone, and engage with six rounds in the magazine. The dot drill isn't really different, I just blacked out the dots and I got rid of the zero check, if I need to check zero I'll use a different target. I also shrunk the E-silhouettes to simulate 400 yards with a 12" diameter zone in the chest. Everything else is pretty much unchanged though. If things cooperate I'll take them back out this weekend to test out with my Marlin Model 60 and maybe my Ruger 10/22.
    I was thinking perhaps steel for NRL22. Without getting too silly it would be close to 1/3rd scale with a maximum of 100 yards.
    Used this as a source but think they reversed height and width on a few:
    Anyone know the minimum distances to convert? The article doesn't say, only the 2 distance version, Stangskyting, article gave both.
    These are the maximum distance and size for each:
    Max Distance (YDS):Min Distance (YDS):HxW in "NRL22 ALTType:
    54474x3.34"Smaen
    82764.5x6.55"1/4
    100956.3x6.56"1/3
     
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    Since the table made things weird at the bottom of my post will add this here.

    The quick and dirty answer with the existing NRL22 target package is use the 4, 5 and 6" round plates.

    Still need an idea of what a "fair" minimum distance is for each to scale it for 100 yards max.
    ETA:
    It looks like it is a range within 50 meters from minimum to maximum. But given the performance of those rounds it is only a 0.2 mil drop difference maximum for the distances on a specific target. Shrinking things down to 1/3rd scale our 50 meters becomes ~16 yards, but the poor performance of .22LR is going to drop this down to 5-7 yards, far to near for a ~0.2 mil limit in drop.
    Thoughts?
     
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    I spent way longer than I should have going down the Norwegian NRA website rabbit hole with google translate trying to find an answer and couldn't find the minimum distances for the felthurtigskyting targets either. Mainly because their website sucks...how hard is it to post the damn regelbok...for faen skyld. Earlier I just scaled mine to the max distance of 164 yards for the Smaen target and 273 yards for the 1/4 target, which is actually the max distance for stangskyting but this is America so I do what I want!

    As far as visualization goes the 4" targets at 54 yards would be a fair representation of a 150 meter Smaen target, a 5" target at 82 yards to represent the 225 meter 1/4 target , and a 6" target at 100 yards to represent a 275 meter 1/3 target. That's about 1/3 scale like you noted and pretty doable.
     
    I spent way longer than I should have going down the Norwegian NRA website rabbit hole with google translate trying to find an answer and couldn't find the minimum distances for the felthurtigskyting targets either. Mainly because their website sucks...how hard is it to post the damn regelbok...for faen skyld. Earlier I just scaled mine to the max distance of 164 yards for the Smaen target and 273 yards for the 1/4 target, which is actually the max distance for stangskyting but this is America so I do what I want!

    As far as visualization goes the 4" targets at 54 yards would be a fair representation of a 150 meter Smaen target, a 5" target at 82 yards to represent the 225 meter 1/4 target , and a 6" target at 100 yards to represent a 275 meter 1/3 target. That's about 1/3 scale like you noted and pretty doable.
    I came up with mine by going mm to inches/3 then played with them in Strelok until the HxW were close to the target sizes they gave in MILS for my 1/3rd scale 100 yard limits.
    Edited my table with acceptable minimum distances and the NRL22 equivalent targets.
    Other ideas would be reduce the target sizes drastically if allowing bipods, would still need to be large enough to accommodate the speed factor.
     
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    I came up with mine by going mm to inches/3 then played with them in Strelok until the HxW were close to the target sizes they gave in MILS for my 1/3rd scale 100 yard limits.
    Edited my table with acceptable minimum distances and the NRL22 equivalent targets.
    Other ideas would be reduce the target sizes drastically if allowing bipods, would still need to be large enough to accommodate the speed factor.
    That's pretty much how I did it.

    If you make a stage like that and allow bipods I'd think cutting the target sizes in half would be reasonable.
     
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    @6.5SH isn't that sport shot at unknown distance within a specified range.

    Like they don't know how far exactly but somewhere between 150 and 300 meters? Probably why they shoot the cartridge/load that they do.

    I was watching these videos a couple years back. It's awesome watching the bolt guns routinely outpace the military guys shooting semi's. But there was one older military guy that basically trained to perform a semi controlled mag dump as a last ditch like 1 - 2 second fallback to get some points. Kinda like the bolt gun guy keeping spare rounds tucked in his offhand gloves fingers to sneak a couple extra shots.

    That said, I often been a bit outspoken that NRL22 type matches should incorporate more unsupported shots. Problem is they would do stages where it's 10 shots offhand. Or all the positions 2 shots a piece over and over. No real thought....more like just going through the motions to say they do it. And people inevitably bitched and moaned cuz its hard (insert gif of angry little stomping her feet)....till it was practically removed. Shit like this sport, drop down shoot 3 rounds at 3 targets....could be incorporated in a stage. We don't need 10 rounds or 5 position changes. Just sprinkle it in. And do it often. Just enough so that people who actually practice it....get an advantage over the people who just bitch about it.
     
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    @6.5SH isn't that sport shot at unknown distance within a specified range.

    Like they don't know how far exactly but somewhere between 150 and 300 meters? Probably why they shoot the cartridge/load that they do.

    I was watching these videos a couple years back. It's awesome watching the bolt guns routinely outpace the military guys shooting semi's. But there was one older military guy that basically trained to perform a semi controlled mag dump as a last ditch like 1 - 2 second fallback to get some points. Kinda like the bolt gun guy keeping spare rounds tucked in his offhand gloves fingers to sneak a couple extra shots.
    As best I can tell between the two wiki articles it allows a random distance within 50 meters of the maximum per target type.
    The 3 target version was starting at parade rest, maximum of six rounds hit to move to the next target and some serious speed.
    The 2 target version starts in the prone and is 2 relays of 25 seconds, 1 at each distance, unlimited rounds to get as many hits as possible.
     
    The ass kicking continued today....

    The first run with the B14R.

    20231202_173615.jpg


    I think on the Nordic Relay part I'm going to put the scoring rings back on them and give it the same 5/3 scoring scheme I've used elsewhere on the target. I felt like I was sucking it up throughout though, pushing bad positions and not focusing on my NPA. I took a mulligan on the dot drill and did better when I started focusing on the fundamentals and paying attention

    20231202_151459.jpg


    My Marlin Model 60's run

    20231202_145838.jpg


    Accuracy wise I'm pretty happy with the rifle, I don't think it did too bad given the fiber optic sights and the fact that the huge front dot covered most of the targets so it was a bit of "I think the target is behind the dot now so here it goes". I have a set of Tech Sights for this rifle but I'm hesitant to put them back on, I'm leaning more towards a red dot or another .22 entirely set up with peep sights. One thing's for certain though, that Marlin is still hella fun to shoot.

    Afterwards I went back with the B14R and hit the E-types again off the tripod going from top left to right, center, bottom left to right. Starting position was off the top with a Game Changer, down to kneeling off one of the legs, then shooting from the tripod shelf in the center, then over to shoot kneeling from one of the other legs, and then over to a blue barrel to shoot off the top.

    20231202_152646.jpg


    Of course, I fouled up my first shot by not paying attention, same as when I was shooting off the tripod legs, I wasn't focusing on my NPA and reducing my wobble zone so it appears I'm pushing them left. When I was focusing, I was putting them in the 5 zone. Even though this was only a 25 yard drill, it looks like I have some work to do but if it was easy then I'd be cleaning it and what fun would that be.
     
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    My problem with irons on those targets ( I am an old school iron sight guy at heart, though the eyes are telling me at my age I need to consider other options) is having some reference where those light grey silhouette type targets even are would be a challenge. not sure I could see well enough to hit them.
     
    Yeah, I was hoping the darker border around the E-types would make them easier to see with the irons but they were pretty light, I'll probably darken those too.
     
    Two of us tried a few variations of the steel versions I outlined above. We'll be making a variation of it as a club stage this month. Thank you for the ideas @Trigger Monkey and @buffalowinter