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Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I would like the combination of Mark's layout with LL's fine hash marks with the .25 mil graduations on 1 side of the horizontal and vertical line. I would like the .5 and 1.o mil lines to be "longer" then the .25's.

I agree the reticle needs to be in the lower 1/3 of the the FOV. I would like a 27 or 30X Extended Eye Relief eyepiece.

On the optic issue. I hope Kowa chooses to make these available for both the 60/66mm line and the 77/80+mm line. I doubt they will make them for my old 821. While I will buy the 60/66 for a field scope and spotter, I won't spend the money for the larger scope to replace my 821.

 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

If we're using this as polling for a new product I would love this. I've run a Kowa (621 I think?) for years and love it. On the best of days I can spot .30 holes at 700 and I love how small it is so it fits in my pack. I would like to see a Mil based reticle that doesn't obscure the main viewing window in the same 20-40x range of magnification that I'm currently running. Great idea and I would definitely buy!
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Unless I'm mistaken, Kowa's eyepieces are bayonette mount, so its going to take some thought to make sure the retical is close to being square and plumb.

Additionally, how is one to focus the reticle?
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MTETM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like the combination of Mark's layout with LL's fine hash marks with the .25 mil graduations on 1 side of the horizontal and vertical line. I would like the .5 and 1.o mil lines to be "longer" then the .25's.

I agree the reticle needs to be in the lower 1/3 of the the FOV.

On the optic issue. I hope Kowa chooses to make these available for both the 60/66mm line and the 77/80+mm line. I doubt they will make them for my old 821. While I will buy the 60/66 for a field scope and spotter, I won't spend the money for the larger scope to replace my 821.

</div></div>

Lordy I hope they do NOT forget all the people that have 821s.....
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

You're safe Hugh, there's only two sizes for the most part-6XX series and 8XX series.....
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Mark's crucifix picture is just what I asked for, I'd add .2 hash marks and call it good.

The issue of reticle alignment is a good one. The Leupold bino has the reticle movable via a ring at the eyepiece, but I shudder to think of the cost involved in building that into the unit.

With the rotating scope body, it would seem some kind of rotation system will be required. It might be possible to use the mount itself as the rotation point, locking it to install and unlocking it to rotate the entire eyepiece. That would also permit the crucifix to be placed as the user desired, upper, lower, left or right. On a straight body scope a fixed reticle may not be too bad, placement of the focus knob would be the real issue once the reticle was lined up. I don't recall, are the Kowa mounts bidirectional? That is, can you mount the eyepiece only one way, or will the lugs engage in any position?

An simple solution would be an astronomical 1.25" mount lens with an adapter for the standard body mount. Then the entire eyepiece is free to rotate as required. The adapter could then be used for any other astro eyepiece. By altering the length of the adapter, you could use the same eyepiece on different scope bodies, installing a Barlow as required to set the correct mag level for the reticle subtension.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I think we are just going to move forward with the crucifix at the lower third of the FOV. Screw the poll. It was supposed to be tournament style, but it was confusing. It is on a different thread... just poorly conceived and communicated.

I'm busy today. I will pick it up and try to get to actual scale later. We will design to the FOV of the smallest objective, which is the 66mm and it looks like everyone likes 30X.

The design will look a lot like Mark's but with some finer subtensions at the perimeter for ranging. My mildots are too big. They look like crap. Then we can compare mildots to hashes.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

My two cents to this:

1) keep upper part of FOV clear!

2) ensure you have 0.1mrad subtension!
(make it to the "L" not to screw up the main "reticle")

3) main reticle T-shaped and centered = no 12 o'clock arm, perhaps a couple of hold over hash marks only floating

4) main reticle hash marks with lines, no dots
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The design will look a lot like Mark's but with some finer subtensions at the perimeter for ranging. My mildots are too big. They look like crap. Then we can compare mildots to hashes. </div></div>

Try the top half of a Gen2XR with its .1 mil dots.

I'm still curious how this shakes out optically-my source tells me that the focal plane is at the prism....sure you can play with the distance to overcome that and individual diopter, but where does that become diminishing returns vs a spotter or field scope that is built to havea reticle?
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Hi i was thinking over the .25 marks to the .2 marks and realy if this would be compatable to using a scope then the hash marks would make more sense being .2mill wide. this is because unlike MOA we dont move in 1/4's we move in tenths but the tenth lines would be to much i think and with nice clear fine .2mill lines you would be able to use the reticle to bracket to .1mills but if it is .25 it would be hard to bracket to .1 mills. Mabe on the outer lines there would be the ability to have .1 mill lines oposing the .2mill lines. And yes with Marks basic principal in the lower third and the way it will fit into the 30 power eyepiece.

It is interesting on the poll that 8 were in favour of this and the next best was 5 in favor of a DTAC type reticle wow i cant believe that but people must love extra things i would prefer the plain lower t no additional ranging or other items to get in the way as mentioned KISS.

also i have the larger kowa 77mm units and they have a rotating mount so you can level the spotting scope so they will be a perfect compliment and i use it for long range fixed position spotting so weight is not an issue with it but will also be looking for a light weight unit soon and the 66mm could be ideal if it works out.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Use a inverted numbered "L" and a centered " T " , leave the dots OUT , 30x LER , Opps , sounds like a FinnArmy with out the dots doesn't it ,

keep the lines fine , and if you need a pic , look at the actual photo of the Zeiss FinnArmy , Opps , souds too easy dosn't IT .

Stop triying to re-invent something that works , asin most case's you will end up with something thats WORSE than better .

Cheers Chris

P.S. Also make a adapter so you can hook up camera's etc , would be very handy for lone shooters , to review after shot etc .
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use a inverted numbered "L" and a centered " T " , leave the dots OUT , 30x LER , Opps , sounds like a FinnArmy with out the dots doesn't it ,

keep the lines fine , and if you need a pic , look at the actual photo of the Zeiss FinnArmy , Opps , souds too easy dosn't IT .

Stop triying to re-invent something that works , asin most case's you will end up with something thats WORSE than better .

Cheers Chris

P.S. Also make a adapter so you can hook up camera's etc , would be very handy for lone shooters , to review after shot etc .
</div></div>

Personally I don't like the FinnArmy reticle... reminds me of the DTAC with everything in there...

Range this, no wait you can range this way, no wait, you can range this way, now aim this way, oops, no rifle, so point at this while ranging with, ah, never mind.

Too buys...

it only needs 1 thing, not 3 or more...
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

OK... here is a preliminary design. KISS.

The posts are .03 MILs, which is the size of the P4L (a little thicker than the Premier Gen 2 XR for the 5-25). The mil dots are .1 mil in size. The hashes are .2 MILs. The hashes at 5 MILs are .6 MILs. The tiny hashes are .1 MILs and only on top or on the right hand side. The fine hashes for ranging are at every .1 MIL. I thought about going to .2 MILs like Wild Bill said, but then that screws up my markings at every mil and half mil because .5 is an odd number. The .1 mil actually kind of works. I just set it off to the side as you are really only going to use it for very fine measurements.

I will make a version with hashes as opposed to mil dots later. BTW... I keep calculating out that I have 40 mils to work with. The huge FOV makes the reticle look tiny. I just used the FOV for a standard 30X Kowa eyepiece for a 66mm scope... 110 - 126 ft at 1000 yards (can someone check my math?).

I included a close up of the left handed side of the horizontal post.
KowaDraft3.jpg


Closeup
Kowa3CloseUp.jpg


Comments are welcome...
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

it looks cleaner but you have the same issue of the half-mil hashes being easier to see than the mil-mildots which, to me, is off-putting.

Why not just go lower half hash marks for half-mil and full length mil hash marks like the USOptics MIL-GAP?

thanks for doing all this BTW - really hope this translates to a product ASAP...!!!!
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it looks cleaner but you have the same issue of the half-mil hashes being easier to see than the mil-mildots which, to me, is off-putting.

Why not just go lower half hash marks for half-mil and full length mil hash marks like the USOptics MIL-GAP?

thanks for doing all this BTW - really hope this translates to a product ASAP...!!!!</div></div>

Yeah... the downfall of mil-dots. But, I still think it is easier to count out than hashes and hashes. I will make a GAP type version later on. Not tonight. The hashes will end up being a lot larger.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Get rid of the dots & number IT</div></div>

To be honest, I am not a huge fan of numbers on reticles in general. If you do a good job on the reticle design, it shouldn't be an issue. With the big hash through every fifth mil dot, it is very easy to count out.

If this were a rifle scope, the numbers might be necessary for quick reference for holdovers. Here, that is just not the case. The extra length on the posts will be strictly for ranging.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it looks cleaner but you have the same issue of the half-mil hashes being easier to see than the mil-mildots which, to me, is off-putting.

</div></div>

I griped about that big time when the GeniiXR came out, but while I had my Premier 5-25 I really liked it. The mini-mils grew on me real quickly.


Just stick the top half of a USO MPR in it....that'd be my vote!
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it looks cleaner but you have the same issue of the half-mil hashes being easier to see than the mil-mildots which, to me, is off-putting.

</div></div>

I griped about that big time when the GeniiXR came out, but while I had my Premier 5-25 I really liked it. The mini-mils grew on me real quickly.

Just stick the top half of a USO MPR in it....that'd be my vote! </div></div>

I remember that when I had the 3-15 with the Gen2 XR and you're right, for the scope it worked out we;;. It just struck me as odd when I saw it in Carter's diagram. Perhaps it would net-out the same when viewed 'real life'.

Regardless, I still think the USO Gap-MIL is an awesome reticle.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Something similar, but less cluttered than an H32 style is my vote.

horus32op.png


Only takes up the bottom 1/3 of the FOV and has a grid.

Adding more precision to a 'T' is pointless. Since you have no reference to use for accurate alignment, you're losing whatever accuracy the tighter marks are giving you with the ballpark alignment. You at least need the '+' sings like in the Gen2 XR or some frame of reference (maybe small dots) if you want accurate alignment.

Love my Gen2 XR reticles, but they're meant for hold-overs. A square grid is better suited for measuring misses. Faster than measuring one axis at a time.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Something similar, but less cluttered than an H32 style is my vote.
horus32op.png

</div></div>
Got that in Leupy 12-40.
Like the scope and recticle, but that grid tends to block impacts/dust in longer ranges. Cant call corrections fast. Reticle has to be moved on top of TGT after bullet has landed and that takes some time.

I wish line thickness would be thinner, then it might, just might, work properly. Also 0.1 milliradian hash marks would be sweet.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Think more like this:

reticle.jpg


Or, even with fewer dots and '+'s... but, at least some features for aligning.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Maybe this:

reticle2.jpg
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Adding more precision to a 'T' is pointless. Since you have no reference to use for accurate alignment, you're losing whatever accuracy the tighter marks are giving you with the ballpark alignment.</div></div>

I disagree. You set your reference point for the measurement and use the last two mils of .1 hashes for the remainder. If you want one, you can get a very precise measurement.

Of course, the point of the fine graduations is for ranging and measuring, not so much for shot calling. What you want is to use a grid for shot calling. This reticle is designed in the reverse, to clear out as much space around the target to clearly see where the shot lands. A grid would be used in a different way.

I actually don't mind putting a grid at the very bottom of the reticle like Horus has it. it is just a different approach.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Yes, if you're measuring with only one axis at a time, which is fine for ranging.

reticle4.jpg
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

I like that second one a lot. I don't know if everyone else does... Thoughts everyone?

And BTW... that reticle definitely needs numbers.

I would also extend up 2 mils to make a crucifix. And we need an area for finer subtensions. It doesn't matter when you are off .1 mil when you are measuring something that is 3.4 mils big. When you are measuring something that is .4 mils big, .1 is huge.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This will be the cleanest version if someone wants to modify it further:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/reticle-1.jpg </div></div>



in my humble opinion, which is worth exactly what you are paying for it,<span style="font-style: italic"> <span style="font-weight: bold">that's the reticle I want to see in a spotter!! </span> </span>Well done!!
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This will be the cleanest version if someone wants to modify it further:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/reticle-1.jpg </div></div>



in my humble opinion, which is worth exactly what you are paying for it,<span style="font-style: italic"> <span style="font-weight: bold">that's the reticle I want to see in a spotter!! </span> </span>Well done!!
</div></div>

If it had the couple mil on the Y-axis it'd be done and my credit card out! Very impressed at the rate of development and cooperation on this thread.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Bingo!

Oops, you missing numbers at the end on the right?
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

And the one Cater likes:

reticle6-2.jpg
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Hours will sue you it is too close to his stuff

Hours is sue happy I won't say what he said at Shot, but Kowa will get sued
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try this:

reticle5-1.jpg
</div></div>

I actually like this the best. I would also keep the fine graduations at the bottom as opposed to the top.

You realize that this is not to scale... you have a lot more room to work with in the FOV, which is why I think this can work without looking too busy.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Lowlight,

I have many patents, and most are close to something that already existed. The things is, you can patent an implementation, not a broad idea. These grids are significantly different than theirs, I doubt that they would be able to claim that any grid whatsoever violates their patents solely based on the fact that it's a grid. Claims that broad usually get rejected in the courts.

It would be up to Kowa to determine if they wanted to pursue it.

Cater,

It's just something I whipped up in Windows Paint...
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Companies always sue, but it often gets dismissed right off the bat. There is risk in suing also; you could lose your patent if its determined that the examiner allowed claims that were too broad.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

The fact you referenced their H32 you alright lost, he lives for the lawsuit and does well to sue a lot of people.

The grid is his thing, clearly.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hours will sue you it is too close to his stuff

Hours is sue happy I won't say what he said at Shot, but Kowa will get sued </div></div>

to the H32? I wouldnt think it would be to be honest as the H32 seems to have many fundamental differences. I guess it would come down to how he's defined his patents.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

And every patent references prior art. Patents can either be for something completely novel or be an improvement on something existing. Patent fights often boil down to who is has the most money to fight the fight.

I'm not making it, so it's really not up to me... it's just the style of reticle I would prefer to see.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Whatever, you go this direction, expect a knock on the door, you guys can debate me all you want, Horus sues people for their reticle, and no one has yanked it yet.

I'm done, do what you want, but I will bet you a $1000 to charity you get sued. Or Kowa does by Dennis Sammutt. The guy owns casinos and likes to sue, because he can
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact you referenced their H32 you alright lost, he lives for the lawsuit and does well to sue a lot of people.

The grid is his thing, clearly. </div></div>

Yeah, it is not so much winning or losing, it is the threat of having to defend against something. if he likes to sue... that is an issue regardless of whether he wins or loses. That is a reality of doing business in America.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

That's really up to Kowa to determine... because, as you said, they are the ones who would have to deal with any lawsuits. all we are doing is presenting them with ideas. The likelihood of any of us getting sued for creating Paint drawings is nil.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

Sure but what is the point of submitting a design that will never see the light of day.

You don't seem to get it. The lengths Horus goes or the fact the man has resources and likes to use them in defense of the reticle. Talk of suing people was the highlight of his conversation at Shot.

If YOU want a H32 get it, in one of their spotters.

Designing something to fail is silly.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

... yes, we won't get sued. Kowa will. And we want Kowa to make us a reticle eyepiece, so it does become our problem really fast.

I guess that is something we can ask them about.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

The T on page 7 is the way to go. I would rather have all lines and no dots, and I'd like 2 mils above center. .2 is fine, but alternating .1's (up then down marks) are fine as well.

The grid adds nothing but headaches, I never needed it in the rifle scope, I don't need it in a spotter. If you are so far off you are reading 4.x left and 3.x down, maybe you should have paid a little more attention to getting it right BEFORE the shot. I have no trouble at all reading as much as 2 mils in windage and elevation seeing the intersection in the empty space of a regualr crosshair, why make it any more complicated or get a legal team involved?
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

You guys don't think like Dennis does...

if you are so sure, hire an attorney yourself and research it, or just contact Horus and see how they feel about it... putting it off on Kowa is bullshit, I would just walk away if I was them.

My bet, again to charity is, they see it as an infringement and will chose to defend against it.

You can rationalize it all you want, the facts of the matter are... Horus gets off on suing people over their reticles. He has the means, including the money to pursue it, and something you don't seem to understand, he takes pleasure in it.
 
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Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...he takes pleasure in it.</div></div>

I heard he bought an entire town in Alaska because he didn't want anyone fishing in <span style="font-style: italic">his</span> trout stream.

I don't know if that's true, but I do know of several cases where he has threatened or brought legal action to protect his patents.
 
Re: Kowa Reticle Eyepiece... Let's get to work!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK... here is a preliminary design. KISS.

I included a close up of the left handed side of the horizontal post.
KowaDraft3.jpg


Closeup
Kowa3CloseUp.jpg


Comments are welcome... </div></div>

I really like this design. Simple and easy to read.
I would have considered to move the fine hash marks to the center of the reticle, as you'll be using those primarily for mil'ing you would want it as close to the optical center as possible to utilize the best part of the optic.
Jo
 
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