Just getting into reloading for my .308 which has a GAP trued action, rock barrel. Using a Forster FL sizer die, set all the way down in order to case gauge correctly in my Wilson Case gauge. Picked up some once fired LC brass, loaded it conservatively using Varget at 42.5 grains, 175 SMK's, CCI primers. It chambers fine, just like the Winchester brass, and the Remington brass that I have. The problem is when I try to extract it, it is really tight, needing to be whacked out with a gloved hand (a rubber mallet would be ideal, but something not usually in my range bag!) The only thing I can think of is that the neck length was a little close to the outer ledge on the case gauge, maybe need to trim it down. Otherwise, I am at a loss. Anyone have any ideas? I have like 400 of these and really want to use them. Thanks in advance. This has been a really great forum. Lots of great people here...
- Thread starter Zerodown
- Start date
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
You could have several problems. Since it has a Rock barrel do you know if it has a tight chamber or a jumbo SAAMI chamber? If you have a tight chamber your fired cases will measure .469 or less with commercial cases.
LC Match cases measure .468 from arsenal and if fired in a jumbo chamber can be .473 base dimension (measured .200 up from rim. As well your FL die may not be sizing your cases enough on the base which means you will need a smaller base die. Most 308 dies I measure size cases to .468/.469 on the base.
If you have a tight chamber your base dimension could be like .467 for Commercial cases which measure .465 on all I have ever measured (Rem, Win, Fed)
Size some cases and go at them with a good micrometer which is usually more reliable than a caliper.
If the cases in a LE Wilson case gage do not go beyond the upper shelf you should be fine.
There is one other condition I have seen but one time and it was a die problem. I had a friend whose M1A would fully extract on firing, bolt would open and start to rear and everything come to a halt. I gave him cases sized in my dies and everything worked fine. I took his fired cases and sized them in my dies and they worked fine so it was traced down to a die problem. I told him to send the FL back to manufacturer and tell them what we did. They sent him a new die, there was no more problem.
You could have several problems. Since it has a Rock barrel do you know if it has a tight chamber or a jumbo SAAMI chamber? If you have a tight chamber your fired cases will measure .469 or less with commercial cases.
LC Match cases measure .468 from arsenal and if fired in a jumbo chamber can be .473 base dimension (measured .200 up from rim. As well your FL die may not be sizing your cases enough on the base which means you will need a smaller base die. Most 308 dies I measure size cases to .468/.469 on the base.
If you have a tight chamber your base dimension could be like .467 for Commercial cases which measure .465 on all I have ever measured (Rem, Win, Fed)
Size some cases and go at them with a good micrometer which is usually more reliable than a caliper.
If the cases in a LE Wilson case gage do not go beyond the upper shelf you should be fine.
There is one other condition I have seen but one time and it was a die problem. I had a friend whose M1A would fully extract on firing, bolt would open and start to rear and everything come to a halt. I gave him cases sized in my dies and everything worked fine. I took his fired cases and sized them in my dies and they worked fine so it was traced down to a die problem. I told him to send the FL back to manufacturer and tell them what we did. They sent him a new die, there was no more problem.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
problem only after firing. Not sure about the chamber. Thanks Hummer. Will measure the cases tonight. Right now I only have a digital caliper.
problem only after firing. Not sure about the chamber. Thanks Hummer. Will measure the cases tonight. Right now I only have a digital caliper.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
I had the same problem with Federal brass. I had the same load, 42.5 grains of Varget under a 175 SMK and that load is fine with Lapua brass. When I ran the same load in Federal brass I had some resistance with bolt lift and tough extraction. I measured the case volume with water and the Federal brass held 1 full grain less water. I lightened the load and it shoots fine. Moral of my story is work up with different brass.
I had the same problem with Federal brass. I had the same load, 42.5 grains of Varget under a 175 SMK and that load is fine with Lapua brass. When I ran the same load in Federal brass I had some resistance with bolt lift and tough extraction. I measured the case volume with water and the Federal brass held 1 full grain less water. I lightened the load and it shoots fine. Moral of my story is work up with different brass.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
Using brass fired in another weapon can be frustrating, I got 500 pieces of one fired Blackhills that gave me the exact same problem, there are 2 cures, either throw it all away, or FL size it in a small base die.
Using brass fired in another weapon can be frustrating, I got 500 pieces of one fired Blackhills that gave me the exact same problem, there are 2 cures, either throw it all away, or FL size it in a small base die.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
I also received some LC 308 Brass that I was necking down for my 260 and I had the same problem, so I tried some Rem. 260 brass and so far no problems. I even neck turned the LC Brass, trimmed. uniformed the primer pockets and uniformed and debured the flash holes. I was using 140 grn. Bergers w/ 43 grns. of H4350 and I had a heck of a time extracting them, I even dropped down to 42.5 grns. and still the same problem so needless to say, I will be using Rem. 260 brass from here on out. My last load with the Rem. brass, I was at 42 grns. H4350 and absolutely no problems extracting and no preasure signs. From what I have been told, the LC Brass is thicker so there can be preasure spikes plus less case capacity.
I also received some LC 308 Brass that I was necking down for my 260 and I had the same problem, so I tried some Rem. 260 brass and so far no problems. I even neck turned the LC Brass, trimmed. uniformed the primer pockets and uniformed and debured the flash holes. I was using 140 grn. Bergers w/ 43 grns. of H4350 and I had a heck of a time extracting them, I even dropped down to 42.5 grns. and still the same problem so needless to say, I will be using Rem. 260 brass from here on out. My last load with the Rem. brass, I was at 42 grns. H4350 and absolutely no problems extracting and no preasure signs. From what I have been told, the LC Brass is thicker so there can be preasure spikes plus less case capacity.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
Zerodown,
You might also consider getting a MO gage which will tell you exactly how much your die is settng back fired case and also tell you how much your shoulder is moving forward on FL sized cases.
I have seen a number of dies in last 30 years that would not even contact the shoulder of a case with the die contacting shell holder so I had to chuck them up in lathe and take off about.010" from bottom of die.
I chamber my rifles with tight chambers and so the shoulders do not move forward over .002" normally and with the MO Gage I adjust them so the shoulder is moved back .001" to .002". With a MO Gage and L E Wilson gage you can pretty well tell everything you need to know.
I can normally remove fired cases from the chambers I cut and drop them in a L.e. Wilson gage and they will be in spec.
Zerodown,
You might also consider getting a MO gage which will tell you exactly how much your die is settng back fired case and also tell you how much your shoulder is moving forward on FL sized cases.
I have seen a number of dies in last 30 years that would not even contact the shoulder of a case with the die contacting shell holder so I had to chuck them up in lathe and take off about.010" from bottom of die.
I chamber my rifles with tight chambers and so the shoulders do not move forward over .002" normally and with the MO Gage I adjust them so the shoulder is moved back .001" to .002". With a MO Gage and L E Wilson gage you can pretty well tell everything you need to know.
I can normally remove fired cases from the chambers I cut and drop them in a L.e. Wilson gage and they will be in spec.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
I always run LC brass through a small base FL .308 die before I ever try them in anything. However, I think you really ought to reduce your charge by a grain when you go to that thicker brass. At least that's what Sierra's manual says.
I always run LC brass through a small base FL .308 die before I ever try them in anything. However, I think you really ought to reduce your charge by a grain when you go to that thicker brass. At least that's what Sierra's manual says.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
Great advice. May need to purchase a small base sizing die for all of this LC brass. I have tried cycling the bolt using the lake city cartridges (without firing it) and I do see shiny marks at the base of the casing, so my die might in fact not be sizing all the way down. Any suggestion on which manufacturer? Thanks everyone...
Great advice. May need to purchase a small base sizing die for all of this LC brass. I have tried cycling the bolt using the lake city cartridges (without firing it) and I do see shiny marks at the base of the casing, so my die might in fact not be sizing all the way down. Any suggestion on which manufacturer? Thanks everyone...
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
...and yes, the cartridge passes the LE wilson case gauge but is a little tight in my actual chamber.
...and yes, the cartridge passes the LE wilson case gauge but is a little tight in my actual chamber.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
I don't know why sizing on a small base would matter after firing if they are chambering fine before firing.
Course, I don't know everything...so it might be worth a shot.
I'd polish the chamber before I tried anything else.
I don't know why sizing on a small base would matter after firing if they are chambering fine before firing.
Course, I don't know everything...so it might be worth a shot.
I'd polish the chamber before I tried anything else.
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
Tried the same problematic cartridge with a friends Rem 700. It chambered fine (mild resistance with locking of the bolt) but would not extract once fired either. Used a gloved hand to whack the bolt up/back in order to extract. (Surprised the friend let me test this out!) So I am going to patiently wait for the new small base full length die found on Midway which is from Redding. I also ordered some new Winchester brass as it is on sale. Good to have a backup plan! I like the idea of polishing the chamber, as I regularly have done this on my pistols using a felt tip and a dremel, but I have never tried this on a rem 700. How does one do such a thing?
Tried the same problematic cartridge with a friends Rem 700. It chambered fine (mild resistance with locking of the bolt) but would not extract once fired either. Used a gloved hand to whack the bolt up/back in order to extract. (Surprised the friend let me test this out!) So I am going to patiently wait for the new small base full length die found on Midway which is from Redding. I also ordered some new Winchester brass as it is on sale. Good to have a backup plan! I like the idea of polishing the chamber, as I regularly have done this on my pistols using a felt tip and a dremel, but I have never tried this on a rem 700. How does one do such a thing?
Re: Lake City Brass difficult to extract (question)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZeroDown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Tried the same problematic cartridge with a friends Rem 700. It chambered fine (mild resistance with locking of the bolt) but would not extract once fired either</span>.</span> Used a gloved hand to whack the bolt up/back in order to extract. (Surprised the friend let me test this out!) So I am going to patiently wait for the new small base full length die found on Midway which is from Redding. I also ordered some new Winchester brass as it is on sale. Good to have a backup plan! I like the idea of polishing the chamber, as I regularly have done this on my pistols using a felt tip and a dremel, but I have never tried this on a rem 700. How does one do such a thing? </div></div>
Hold off on polishing your chamber as it seems to be a load issue given that your round did the same thing in another chamber (your friend's).
Have you tried backing off this load? If it chambers in two rifles but extracts with difficulty, that is usually a sign of excessive pressure. Any other signs? Case head swipe, ejector imprint? I'd knock it down 2 grains to start with those cases and see what happens, then work back up in 1/3 grain increments if it is fine "down there".
It may be your die as I full length re-size all my .308 brass for 5 different rifles using a Dillon Fl die and there ain't a boxer primed case I won't reload! They all chamber and extract fine in each of my rifles and those of the friends I toss it to when they run out! I strive to match the FGMM spec for 168 and 175 gr. SMK loads.
I also advocate using a case gauge.
Good luck.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZeroDown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Tried the same problematic cartridge with a friends Rem 700. It chambered fine (mild resistance with locking of the bolt) but would not extract once fired either</span>.</span> Used a gloved hand to whack the bolt up/back in order to extract. (Surprised the friend let me test this out!) So I am going to patiently wait for the new small base full length die found on Midway which is from Redding. I also ordered some new Winchester brass as it is on sale. Good to have a backup plan! I like the idea of polishing the chamber, as I regularly have done this on my pistols using a felt tip and a dremel, but I have never tried this on a rem 700. How does one do such a thing? </div></div>
Hold off on polishing your chamber as it seems to be a load issue given that your round did the same thing in another chamber (your friend's).
Have you tried backing off this load? If it chambers in two rifles but extracts with difficulty, that is usually a sign of excessive pressure. Any other signs? Case head swipe, ejector imprint? I'd knock it down 2 grains to start with those cases and see what happens, then work back up in 1/3 grain increments if it is fine "down there".
It may be your die as I full length re-size all my .308 brass for 5 different rifles using a Dillon Fl die and there ain't a boxer primed case I won't reload! They all chamber and extract fine in each of my rifles and those of the friends I toss it to when they run out! I strive to match the FGMM spec for 168 and 175 gr. SMK loads.
I also advocate using a case gauge.
Good luck.
