Lapua brass seating problem (update w/pics)

[High Binder]

Hey guys, I'm having a problem with seating SMKs into brand new never fired Lapua brass. The bullets are 6.5/.264 and are dead on. The brass is ~.258 which is causing the bullets to effectively crush the brass as I try to seat the bullets. I tried running the expander ball of a Forrester die though a few of them but they won't open up any more than .258. Should I hit this new brass with a .264 reamer, any other ideas?

Here's a pic:

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

Pretty obvious you need to run a lubed expander through the neck before seating.

I dry lube the case with mica using the Forster dry luber when necking up necks from .224" to .244" (22-250 to 6mm).

Curious - is the .258" measurement ID or OD? Just double checking to make sure you don't somehow have 6mm brass.

Assuming your .258" is your ID, then changing the ID by .002" to .003" should not be a problem with a standard expander.

BTW those that say Lapua brass is ready to load out of the box are diluted. The stuff I get has dented necks and tension all over the map. Looks like yours is undersized.

EDIT TO ADD - I run the expander in to straighten up the neck, then chamfer on new Lapua cases. If the expander has little or no tension I size the neck down with the die and pull the expander back through.

 

[Rugrat]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

Wow, that's painful to look at. I have recently worked with some Lapua .260 Rem brass, and, while it's tight, it does take a bullet without collapsing.

I'll note, however, that the sizing/expanding process has required lubrication and slow, methodical operation of the press.

Once, fired, however, the cases have been a pleasure to work with.

Two things that might help before you go to the time and trouble of reaming each case -- chamfer the case mouth to eliminate any burrs that are preventing the bullet from seating. I noticed on my Lapua brass that it is sharp at the mouth and a quick touch with a chamfer tool helped with initial bullet seating.

The second idea I'll suggest is getting a box of moly coated bullets and using those for your first loading. The moly will lubricate the bullet seating operation and might get you going.

I'm assuming in all this that you are using boat tail bullets, which also help a great deal in initial loading of new brass in my experience.

Hope you don't have to ream the necks. That sorta neutralizes the reason you spend a king's ransom on Lapua brass in the first place.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Curious - is the .258" measurement ID or OD?
</div></div>

The .258 measurement is the ID. I've never had these issues so it's never came up but what ID should I be aiming for?

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rugrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The second idea I'll suggest is getting a box of moly coated bullets and using those for your first loading. The moly will lubricate the bullet seating operation and might get you going.

I'm assuming in all this that you are using boat tail bullets, which also help a great deal in initial loading of new brass in my experience.
</div></div>

Thanks for the tip on slowly hitting the brass with the expander I'll go try that right now. The bullets are coated with hBN and are boat-tail.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys, I'm having a problem with seating SMKs into brand new never fired Lapua brass. The bullets are 6.5/.264 and are dead on. The brass is ~.258 which is causing the bullets to effectively crush the brass as I try to seat the bullets. I tried running the expander ball of a Forrester die though a few of them but they won't open up any more than .258. Should I hit this new brass with a .264 reamer, any other ideas?

Here's a pic:

</div></div>

What cartridge is this?

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What cartridge is this? </div></div>

6.5 Grendel

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What cartridge is this? </div></div>

6.5 Grendel </div></div>

-Chamfer the new cases (they all need it).
-Double check you don't have the seating die turned down to apply a crimp. If the die is trying to crimp as you're seating, it will collapse the case.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

Dude, threads all over the place on this site discussing .002-.003" neck tension.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude, threads all over the place on this site discussing .002-.003" neck tension. </div></div>

Yeah, I knew I was pushing it but with the expander not making the ID any bigger I was starting to wonder if I was missing something and was obviously giving Lapua too much credit.

I did just run some through with a dry lube nice and slow too and they only went to .260/.261 so I'm still .002/3 too tight. Think a slightly bigger expander is in order?

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-Chamfer the new cases (they all need it).
-Double check you don't have the seating die turned down to apply a crimp. If the die is trying to crimp as you're seating, it will collapse the case. </div></div>

10-4 thanks for the info, I'll double check.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

I get the same problem once in a while when I load the 6.5 grendel too; pull the bullet, download the charge by 5 gr and fire form, haven't lost a case yet. I understand it looks scary but it works.
Your call.

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

You are right where you should be... If you opened the case up to .264 what is going to hold the bullet inside? You have to have some neck tension. If you are showing .260 or .261 you would have .002 .0015 neck tension and maybe be a little light in an auto loader.

I think the chamfer is your problem.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
-Chamfer the new cases (they all need it).
-Double check you don't have the seating die turned down to apply a crimp. If the die is trying to crimp as you're seating, it will collapse the case. </div></div>

My money is on the die being too far down.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get the same problem once in a while when I load the 6.5 grendel too; pull the bullet, download the charge by 5 gr and fire form, haven't lost a case yet. I understand it looks scary but it works.
Your call. </div></div>

I agree, I'm going to load them with a light bullet and charge and fire form them in the morning. Thanks!

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: texasleftychef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are right where you should be... If you opened the case up to .264 what is going to hold the bullet inside? You have to have some neck tension. If you are showing .260 or .261 you would have .002 .0015 neck tension and maybe be a little light in an auto loader.

I think the chamfer is your problem. </div></div>

OK guys, I figured it out. While hitting them with the expander ball I could feel that there is/was a doughnut at the bottom of the neck. The upper part of the necks are right at .260 but at the doughnut is .254/6. So now that they've been hit with the expander it's evened out around .260/1 and I haven't killed a single piece (yet).

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: texasleftychef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are right where you should be... If you opened the case up to .264 what is going to hold the bullet inside? You have to have some neck tension. If you are showing .260 or .261 you would have .002 .0015 neck tension and maybe be a little light in an auto loader.

I think the chamfer is your problem. </div></div>

OK guys, I figured it out. While hitting them with the expander ball I could feel that there is/was a doughnut at the bottom of the neck. The upper part of the necks are right at .260 but at the doughnut is .254/6. So now that they've been hit with the expander it's evened out around .260/1 and I haven't killed a single piece (yet). </div></div>

Are you sure you don't have your seating die body screwed down too far and getting the steating stem to bottom out on the case mouth, crunching them?

Also, I had a problem with Winchester 308 brass having unusually long necks. Cases measured at 2.045" out of the bag, for a good 15/500.

My seating stem was bottoming out on the mouths and crunching them like yours, although not that badly. It took me a while to figure out the problem, but you might want to check that.

I don't know how you'd have donuts in new brass?

Chris

 

[ToddKS]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

I do not believe the .006 delta between the OD of the bullet and the ID of the case neck is causing this. As an experiment I just took a 308 Winchester case and intentionally necked it down to .301 (.007 delta base on a .308 diameter bullet). The bullet went in without issue (the case was chamfered on the ID).

That really looks like a die adjustment issue. I have seen similar results two different ways.

First: If the seating die you are using also has a built in crimp feature, having the die out of adjustment can cause the bullet to start getting crimped early. The shoulder gets rolled in because the press is trying to continue to seat a crimped bullet. Looking at the picture (especially the first loaded round below the empty case) it looks like this may be what is happening. That bullet looks like it is crimped hard (but it could just be the picture).

Second: If the die is set too low then early shoulder contact could cause something similar to what you are seeing.

I would reset your seating die per the manufacturers instructions and see if that helps.

 

[Drifter™]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My money is on the die being too far down.</div></div>

+1

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


My seating stem was bottoming out on the mouths and crunching them like yours, although not that badly. It took me a while to figure out the problem, but you might want to check that.

Chris </div></div>

I've never seen a seater stem made to fully engulf a bullet enough that it would be possible to hit the case mouth like you are describing......

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter_1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My money is on the die being too far down.</div></div>

+1 </div></div>

My money too.

That, and no chamfer......

You're not going to get donuts on new never fired brass.

 

[Muttt]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

I just crushed a .308 round and it looked exactly like that. Your die is too far down. Unscrew your seating die from the press. Back the seating post out. Put a loaded Grendel round into your shell holder. Slowly screw down your die until it touches the case. Then slowly screw down your seating post. Now you should be able to seat without milk bottling your cases.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


My seating stem was bottoming out on the mouths and crunching them like yours, although not that badly. It took me a while to figure out the problem, but you might want to check that.

Chris </div></div>

I've never seen a seater stem made to fully engulf a bullet enough that it would be possible to hit the case mouth like you are describing...... </div></div>

Hornady InLine seater, necks that are ~.040" longer than spec, die body turned down a few turns and I rolled the shoulders.

You have a sleeve in some of these dies and even without a crimping step it mucks them up.

Now, to be fair, these ~15 pieces were way out of spec and then out of spec in 'neck length' only.

Thinking the problem was with the necks being too tight, I did run them all through with my carbide expander ball. Sure enough, it happened again, but I wasn't actually noticing when it was happening in the beginning.

Next, I figured that my seating die's crimp step was possibly the cause, but that die doesn't have one. I went back and forth readjusting that die, thinking it had to be it. Remember...this was only 15 pieces out of 500, so it wasn't happening often during the reloading sessions.

I miced all of the bullets wondering if I just got a bad batch and no dice on those, so I was perplexed.

Finally, I had a bad case in my hand and just happened to be looking at it more closely than I would be when grabbing them out of my container that I use on the bench.

Yep...I could immediately see the longer neck. Anyhow, I went through each of the remaining cases and culled out the ones with the longer necks and just trimmed them a bit.

Chris

 

[X-fan]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

HighBinder,

Take your sizing die, raise the ram, screw the die down until it touches the shell holder. Back the die out 2 complete turns then lock it down.

Try seating a bullet.

let us know how it goes.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

Seater die is too far down. Like poster abive said, the die is trying to seat and crimp before the seating is done.

You shouldn't need to crimp so run the ram up with an empty case in the shell holder. Screw down the die until it contacts the case mouth then back it off at least a half turn. I go one full turn.

If you have a properly seated cartridge, run it up into the die and turn the seater stem down until it contacts the bullet. You should be back to square one at this point.

If you want to crimp, your cases need to be uniform in length and you will need to use a bullet with a cannelure ring on it...

 

[High Binder]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

Alright, I figured I'd better show you guys the problem and while I agree that new Lapua brass shouldn't have a doughnut, these do and it caused my crushed brass not the die.

Here is a picture of the ID in the upper ~4/5ths of the neck, as you can see it's sized as it should be 2.605" and why my shorter bullets didn't smash the brass.

Now here's a pic of the blades on the doughnut at the bottom of the neck. As you can see it's a full .004" tighter.

They are all like this, 1000 pieces. Once ran through the die they even out and the doughnut almost completely disappears and allows for a good seating but again the problem was the brass having a doughnut, not my die settings.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Lapua brass seating problem with pic

Bottom line? Yet another well documented example that Lapua brass is not ready to load as it comes out of the box.

I purchased some "new" brass recently, but the previous owner had already primed them. They had also been chamfered, so I figured go ahead and load.

I hand weighed 50 charges for them. When I started seating bullets, my stomach turned. The neck tension was ALL OVER the place. Some real tight, some loose, just a wide range.

As this was for a 1000 yard only rifle, I was just sick. But, not sick enough to pull the bullets.

Fast forward to last Friday. 1000 yard KD range. 2X brass I loaded? X X X X 10 X X X 10 10 X X. Switch to the "new" brass with varying neck tension? 10 10 10 9 (off call) 10 X 10 9 (off call) 10 X 8 (off call). X count went through the floor, corner 9s and a corner 8. The 8 was at 2 o'clock, and I broke the shot with the crosshair on the spotter in the middle of the X ring.

Swapped over to the 308 with irons - 10 (tight 10 for elevation due to temp/altitude) X X X X..... not the shooter.

Glad you got it worked out. One other interesting thing while on this subject. Rifle 1 above is in 6.5x284. I am running a Redding FL S die and leaving the expander in. I have no issues with the expander being the last thing to touch the neck. Well, guess what - the S die, when FL sizing the case for a minimum headspace chamber, does not size the whole neck down to the neck/shoulder junction. It leaves a .005" larger OD donut because the bushing does not go down all the way.