http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/04/larue-surg-224-valkyrie-big-3-east/
90gr SMK mag fed 2700fps??
90gr SMK mag fed 2700fps??
- Thread starter Forgetful Coyote
- Start date
Conceptually interesting. Would this take less than a 7 twist to stabilize a 90gr 224 caliber bullet? To me, this could make for a very viable hunting round at 3-400 yds with a 70gr Barnes TTSX or similar profile. That said, I'm hip deep in Grendels and hardly need another project with all of the required proprietary support to man it. Regardless, could be a hammer with a good Bartlein wrapped around it.
It amazes me that of two cases of the same length and parentage, one can't fit a bullet that the other can. Marketing.
Making this case into a .22 cal is a great idea. But, I'm so sick of the "mine can do this, your's can't" jibe. The Nosler .22, I haven't rushed out and bought one, takes one less step than the Valkryie. You don't have to change from a standard .223/5.56 bolt. With the Valkyrie, you do. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same thing. If any different, it's about as much as a different slice of the same pie.
Making this case into a .22 cal is a great idea. But, I'm so sick of the "mine can do this, your's can't" jibe. The Nosler .22, I haven't rushed out and bought one, takes one less step than the Valkryie. You don't have to change from a standard .223/5.56 bolt. With the Valkyrie, you do. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same thing. If any different, it's about as much as a different slice of the same pie.
All of the above +1. I too am hip deep in grendels, and also get 2800fps+ with Black Hills 5.56 77gr. SMK/TMK out of 18/20” barrels.
So the no shitter is, do I need a new, small frame AR- 800-1000k yd. cartridge? Nope.
So the no shitter is, do I need a new, small frame AR- 800-1000k yd. cartridge? Nope.
Could be a fun caliber for more varmit hunting folks that want a dedicated hunting AR. I will be interested in what the twist rate is to stabilize the 90gr stuff.
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I wonder how cheap the factory loadings will be compared to the 22 Nosler, as that could help determine what becomes a bit more popular.
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I wonder how cheap the factory loadings will be compared to the 22 Nosler, as that could help determine what becomes a bit more popular.
The problem with the Nosler is that the brass is not reusable. As in the case is toast after one firing. The rim gets absolutely destroyed if loaded to the velocities they claim. The only fix that has been found is to neck down 6mm hagar brass to make what they call 22 NosGar and use a 6.8 bolt.
I think its 6.7 twist but dont quote me on that. Anyhow tho I agree, IMO a improved Grendel based .224 would be a much better option if the goal is a hotter .22 on the AR15 platform, with a 6mm being even better than that. Ballistically a 6mm Grendel pretty much maxes out the performance capability of a AR15, while at the same time also giving a most potential accuracy-foundation. Load that 6 Grendel Imp. with some custom ~65-70gr flatbase stubby little benchrest bullets, and theres no reason at all one shouldnt be able to get pretty damn close to grouping nearly as well as a dialed in 6 BR bolt rifle. Grendel variants have been getting more and more popular on the benchrest circuit, with a Grendel-based .30 holding small group record, and the "6mm Grench" making quite a strong showing at several matches recently...JMHO
Id really love to eventually do .22 or 6 Grendel Improved on a CZ 527 or mini Mauser, medium-heavyish profile 20-22" 1:7.5 Brux. Thatd make for a awesome fun little rifle that would really punch outside its weight class IMO
Id really love to eventually do .22 or 6 Grendel Improved on a CZ 527 or mini Mauser, medium-heavyish profile 20-22" 1:7.5 Brux. Thatd make for a awesome fun little rifle that would really punch outside its weight class IMO
There were 3 or 4 different designs of this same cartridge.
Hell, the .22 Nosler is nothing more than a 6.8 case with a rebated rim and all of the problems associated therein.
The problem with the Grendel based cartridges is there is precious little bolt face left after opening it up that far. Not good for high pressure rounds.
The 6.8 based cartridges have the same problem, but not as bad as the grendel based ones do.
To me, that is the main draw to something like the .22 nosler, but I don't think it is enough to overcome the rebated rim issue.
Hell, the .22 Nosler is nothing more than a 6.8 case with a rebated rim and all of the problems associated therein.
The problem with the Grendel based cartridges is there is precious little bolt face left after opening it up that far. Not good for high pressure rounds.
The 6.8 based cartridges have the same problem, but not as bad as the grendel based ones do.
To me, that is the main draw to something like the .22 nosler, but I don't think it is enough to overcome the rebated rim issue.
I agree, push a rebated rim too hard and will be a pita to reload for. But, I've been reloading for 6-.284 and 6.5-284 and .284 for some time now. I think of it as a gentle reminder not to exaggerate your pressure expectations.
What kind of speeds do you think the valkyrie could make with 55 and 70 grain bullets? Minimum barrel length to get decent velocity? Looks like and interesting varmint/coyote upper to hunt with.
Easily get the advertised 3350 fps with the 55's. And, 3150 with 70's. Those are with full length gas paths and rifle barrels. I'm hearing too many people wanting to go short then don't understand why they don't get the 'advertised' velocities.
This might be a project for this spring. I don't have time for it now with hunting season. Looks like it would be a great coyote and groundhog option. Not sure if it is that much of a better solution than my 223ai bolt gun though.
Some interesting ballistic comparisons....
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...6-5-grendel-modern-intermediate-calibers-025/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...6-5-grendel-modern-intermediate-calibers-025/
It's interesting to someone like me that wants maximum performance out of the AR15 but doesn't want to reload. I already own a Grendel and I like it, but if something better comes along I'd try it. I'm still hoping Hornady will release factory 6mm Grendel.
The problem I can see happening right off is if Hornady ends up producing the brass then brass life is going to suck.
I got to play with a cartridge that's almost identical, actually it might even be the same design that was sold off. Only one brand of brass was capable of handling warm pressures but at those pressures with 90's, 2850 fps in a 24" was about right.
I can see why they stopped at 2700 fps with 90's in a 20" for the Valkyrie with Hornady brass.
I got to play with a cartridge that's almost identical, actually it might even be the same design that was sold off. Only one brand of brass was capable of handling warm pressures but at those pressures with 90's, 2850 fps in a 24" was about right.
I can see why they stopped at 2700 fps with 90's in a 20" for the Valkyrie with Hornady brass.
Federal is the designer of the cartridge. Hopefully they use decent brass...but since I don't reload anymore it won't matter to me.
I’m interested as well. This seems to be a better option then the 22 Nosler. A light recoiling round in the small frame AR that will meet/exceed the ballistics of the average 308 is money in my book. The issue with the 6.5 Grendel has always been barrel length. I don’t want to have to run a 22”” or longer barrel in my AR just to get my velocity to 2550-2600 fps.
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Can anyone confirm the projected velocity is tested from a 20”” barrel and not a 24”” barrel. Searching through other forums that are discussing the same, that seems to be an unconfirmed topic.
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confined to the AR magazine cartridge length . Can you not Just neck-up an ordinary .223 case to a larger Diam. bullet to get the performance you want from a shorter barrel length ? .
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You can neck up but there again, issue is going to be velocity from a shorter barrel. The fact a the new RDF can be pushed to 2800-2900 from a 18” barrel or the new 224 can push the 90 SMK to 2700 and still be such a small light recoiling round is awesome to me. That’s what I’m looking for with out having to reload.
I read I think 3 articles, thought Hornady was mentioned in one of them, maybe not ...
the AR15 load in .223 Case is always choked back by restrict to the internal Mag. OAL . And that is the biggest bitch I got for building anything on the 15 platform . ??? . I don't know if primary looking for Primo hunting performance or your just wanting BC for steel & paper @ long range in a AR15 .
Necking-Up p a 223 parent case in Bore Diam. The 6mmx45 is the king and pretty fast Vel.with good BC . but still needs at least 20" barrel to (take advantage) get best performance .
. But then if you move the Bore Diam.larger to .257 then ( Use a short 16" ) barrel length, with also using a faster burn rate powder (for example, A2200 ) for pressure push out a larger Diam. Bore hole . . The results are more than pretty good on the Vel.. You can get a easy 2800 fps Vel. ( with using 87 grn. bullet ) weight . but the 87 grn. weight is about hitting the wall with the internal restriction of the AR magazine with using longer heavier .257 bullets ..
I know there are proably better ways but it usually comes at a cost of having to reload. I work 3rd shift hours and sometimes first shift depending if we flip someone and do buy/bust or search warrants with them. I don’t see my family at all 4 days strait every week so I try to limit myself on certain things. I pretty much only my shoot factory loaded stuff due to the fact that I’m not a real competitor or anyhting. Would much prefer my time with the family and then when I do have free time to shoot I can spend it all shooting instead of reloading and shooting.
If I was serious about competing or things of that nature I would no doubt reload to save the coin but it’s all fun for me. I just always look for the best thing I can get with factory ammo. The fact that this 224 Valkyrie load pretty much beats my old 308 178 bthp load and is half the recoil also helps with getting my wife and younger son into the sport as well.
I did a number of internet search/mind experiment projects centered around taking the next step up from the .223/5.56. After much rumination, I always ended up coming back to the .223/5.56 cartridge, mostly because that next step always seems to have disadvantages as an irreducible part of the upgrade. If I had to put finger on it, my guess is that the additional energies involved simply drive some form of failure or other disadvantage.
For the .224 bore and .223/5.56 magazine length, I think it simply makes best sense to stick with that cartridge, and to live within it reasonable limitations. For me, those limitations involve a max reasonably effective/accurate distance of 600yd, and a bullet weight at or below 75gr.
If I want to drive more bullet farther, I step up to a 6.5, My own preference being for the .260. But for folks who are not already invested in the .260, I think the 6.5CM probably makes a better choice, especially in an AR-10 platform.
Greg
For the .224 bore and .223/5.56 magazine length, I think it simply makes best sense to stick with that cartridge, and to live within it reasonable limitations. For me, those limitations involve a max reasonably effective/accurate distance of 600yd, and a bullet weight at or below 75gr.
If I want to drive more bullet farther, I step up to a 6.5, My own preference being for the .260. But for folks who are not already invested in the .260, I think the 6.5CM probably makes a better choice, especially in an AR-10 platform.
Greg
I feel like I'm in the Matrix, this is the 4th iteration that I know of: 1st time I heard of it was here: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...le-not-so-much
But apparently ARP made a version before with case shortened to 42mm. And I believe you can get one from PVA called the .224 Temeyo.
Remember that certain 6.8 mags have internal dimensions of up to 2.300".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HxQa6E7tm8
But apparently ARP made a version before with case shortened to 42mm. And I believe you can get one from PVA called the .224 Temeyo.
Remember that certain 6.8 mags have internal dimensions of up to 2.300".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HxQa6E7tm8
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Did or can anyone the advertised velocity was tested from a 20”” or 24””barrel?
Thought it was 20" 1:6.7...dont quote me on that
Most listed velocities are from a 24" barrel (standard pressure gun length). I'd be surprised if the velocities from this cartridge were from something shorter.
Ah yes, official velocities youre right. I was thinking of the upper itself.
Typically Federal's Fusion MSR printed velocity is from much shorter barrels that you'd typically see in MSRs. When it's published, that may be the standard to which you want to compare.
In Federal's FB post, James Gilliland indicated that the velocities for the 90gr SMK were from a 20" barrel, 1:7 twist.
Not sure where they got the info but the graphs they have listed was 2700 fps from a 20” barrel. If that’s the case this could be a really fun bolt gun round with a 24-26” barrel. Hardly any recoil and riding the old 140 Amax 6.5 creeds tail.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...6-5-grendel-modern-intermediate-calibers-025/
Anyone know when this stuff is gonna be realeased? I am need of a new barrel for my AR and think I wanna make the switch.
My guess would be after the beginning of the year, to coincide with SHOT Show.
I had the recent opportunity to shoot the 224 Valkyrie at JP Rifles Blue Steel Ranch. Ballistics using the 90gr SMK seemed similar to my 6.5 CM but with much less recoil. Targets out to 1,000 yards were successfully engaged and bullet splashes at that distance could be observed. I was extremely impressed and believe this cartridge will become very popular in PRS type events.
I've seen numbers between 2670 and a little over 2700 out of the JP barrels.
Not sure if any yall enjoy MAC's channel on youtube but personally Im a huge fan:
https://youtu.be/d71TrQZ6uxc
https://youtu.be/d71TrQZ6uxc
My impression is that this is a way to get the maximum performance available out of the existing ar15 physical dimension limitations. A bolt gun can be chambered in other more common and practical calibers. Yes, Large frame ar calibers do it better. This looks more favorable to me with 75-100 grain high bc bullets, than investing in slower calibers like the grendel for the ar15. With federal offering the factory options in ammunition, and all the rifle manufacturer's jumping on board, I see building an upper in this caliber in the future. It will be more successful than the 22 nosler.
I contacted JP in reference to velocity expectations between thier 20 vs 22 inch. After checking with the engineers doing the testing they advised to expect 2650ish from the 20 and closer to 2700 with the 22" while using 90 gr FGMM ammo. Remember each barrel can and will very somewhat. But that gives us an idea of what we can expect.
I think for matches inside 600 yards, this is going to be a great caliber. Beyond that... MPA sums it up well at the end of this video.
https://youtu.be/Q-E2GiX6bH0
I think for matches inside 600 yards, this is going to be a great caliber. Beyond that... MPA sums it up well at the end of this video.
https://youtu.be/Q-E2GiX6bH0
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As noted in the video with shots on a 9xx yard target, if you dont have a hit indicator on far away targets, the likelihood of the RO on the spotter seeing or hearing the impact is slim. All it takes is just a little wind blowing down range and you will not hear impacts even while using electronic earpro, just a little mirage will wash out hits on a clean target let alone one that has several hits. It's an issue we have at matches even with 6mm's on distance targets many times. Inside 600 you can usually pick up the splash unless the mirage is just terrible.
This is coming from personal experience, I run a 80 grain A-max load at a little over 3100fps in my varmint rifle and there have been many times on the range that I cant tell if I hit on 800-1k on freshly painted steel. If you have any ground cover you can forget about seeing disturbance on the back stop if you miss too...
With that said, I will be getting a JP barrel in this caliber. And I probably will use it at a few matches if the performance is there. Several of the matches in my area stop between 600-650 and this should be perfect for that. The matches that go out longer I'll stick with my 6.5mm bolt rifle.
Forgot to add, JP will also be using Rifle +2" gas system lengths on their barrels. Keep that in mind if ordering from elsewhere. I wouldn't want you to have the same experience as every non-custom 22 Nosler barrel owner has had.
We discussed this cartridge for about 5 pages in the Bolt Gun section.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...3-224-valkyrie
I found an article where they state they used a 24" inch barrel as their velocity test length barrel. So once I started crunching the numbers, there really isn't much difference between the Valkyrie, the 223 AI, or the 6.5 Grendel shooting 123's. This is what I posted after running some data.
"Buddy shot one today. 18" barrel with federal factory 90gr SMK 2580~2600 It's on the left, the right is a dasher."
That seems a little more down to earth. That's only 25fps faster than my Grendel. Using local environmental data it stays supersonic an extra 15 yards over my 123gr Hornady SST. So where is the advertised 2700fps? Which lead me to using my Google-Fu to finally figure out where that 2700fps figure came from?
I finally found this article stating the test barrel was a 24" 1/7" twist barrel. 6th paragraph down.
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/10/224...#axzz4z0tHp9KF
So if we're talking 24" barrel here it does change the comparison statistics somewhat. I have seen a lot of 24" barrel data posted up from various Grendel forums where they are getting 2650fps and a little north thereof. That's really not that much difference out there. Using local DA of 2343 and a 48.2 degree day, 9mph wind from 9 o'clock, they are only 40 yards apart in supersonic flight. The 123gr SST Grendel at 2650fps goes sub at 1140 yards, the 90gr SMK Valkyrie at 1180.
Pretty interesting.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...3-224-valkyrie
I found an article where they state they used a 24" inch barrel as their velocity test length barrel. So once I started crunching the numbers, there really isn't much difference between the Valkyrie, the 223 AI, or the 6.5 Grendel shooting 123's. This is what I posted after running some data.
"Buddy shot one today. 18" barrel with federal factory 90gr SMK 2580~2600 It's on the left, the right is a dasher."
That seems a little more down to earth. That's only 25fps faster than my Grendel. Using local environmental data it stays supersonic an extra 15 yards over my 123gr Hornady SST. So where is the advertised 2700fps? Which lead me to using my Google-Fu to finally figure out where that 2700fps figure came from?
I finally found this article stating the test barrel was a 24" 1/7" twist barrel. 6th paragraph down.
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/10/224...#axzz4z0tHp9KF
So if we're talking 24" barrel here it does change the comparison statistics somewhat. I have seen a lot of 24" barrel data posted up from various Grendel forums where they are getting 2650fps and a little north thereof. That's really not that much difference out there. Using local DA of 2343 and a 48.2 degree day, 9mph wind from 9 o'clock, they are only 40 yards apart in supersonic flight. The 123gr SST Grendel at 2650fps goes sub at 1140 yards, the 90gr SMK Valkyrie at 1180.
Pretty interesting.
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