I am on the long waiting list for a 7.62OBR. I got an email the other day that LaRue will now be making their own barrels. I have no money down, and they said it should be ready at the earliest May 2014. So I think I will stay on the list and wait and see what happens. If I hear that people are getting bad accuracy I guess I will cancel my order. I don't know what to think of this, but it should be interesting.
- Thread starter Siso
- Start date
More information (and disinformation, and fanboy BS and...well...you get the idea) here than you'd ever want:
It's true, we?ve had you over the proverbial barrel ... - AR15.COM
how many of you waiting feel better now - AR15.COM
It's true, we?ve had you over the proverbial barrel ... - AR15.COM
how many of you waiting feel better now - AR15.COM
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I cancelled my order after waiting almost a year for the PredatOBR. I picked up a Daniels Defense which shoots under 1 MOA even with 55Gr FMJ's. Very happy with it as a duty gun.
I also have an OBR 7.62 on order. Without any kind of commitment from Larue as to when it might show up, I don't honestly feel all that committed to purchasing the rifle if I ever get a call. That being said, I have many Larue products and am very satisfied with them.
Its gonna be "interesting" to say the least.......to think his barrels are gonna compete with the big boys out there.
It does make you wonder.....is it just because he can't get enough barrels....or has he started to piss off some of his suppliers at this point to where he really does have to make everything in house.
It does make you wonder.....is it just because he can't get enough barrels....or has he started to piss off some of his suppliers at this point to where he really does have to make everything in house.
When was your order date? Curious as to how long from your order date to may 2014?
These are my thoughts, as well. I don't know much about making good barrels, but something tells me it isn't something you can just decide to do. Even if you have very expensive equipment. But the proof is in the rifles. Now we just have to wait and see.
I like the idea that you will be able to buy interchangeable barrels for the predator
I hate how he has fucked with his customers for over a year on a rifle.
I hate how he has fucked with his customers for over a year on a rifle.
I ordered mine in Feb 2012 right after the shot show, I cancelled it in mid Dec 2012 after they did not know when the rifles would be out. I needed a new duty gun and just could not wait any longer. I could have waited 6-9 months, but after that, I was done with no delivery in site. I would still be waiting. They got the Costa Ed out quick.
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I sure hope LaRue either has someone in house, or someone that is going to help out on a daily basis for the first year or so. Making quality rifle barrels is indeed something you can't just do. Buying the machinery is great, but it doesn't really mean crap. Some of the best barrels in the world are still made of old Pratt and Whitney rifling machines from WWI and WWII, it's all about knowing what you are doing.
Best of luck to them, but I'd be a bit leery at this point.
Best of luck to them, but I'd be a bit leery at this point.
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You sure its and OBR? Over on arf.com there is an order spreadsheet, and OBR 762 orders have been filled through end of July early August of 2012. The Tobr orders are all pending. Also if you ordered last May you should have at least been in the Lower Ban group where you got a lower and charged half.
Larue recently screwed their dealers, by eliminating all their dealers. From what I heard they also cancelled dealer orders that had been in for months (not sure if this is true, but I would be pissed if this was the case and I had a rifle on order through a Larue dealer).
Mark does some odd ball things. Seems like he feels that he has a corner on the market and does not need any dealer support.
There are a lot of other great options when it comes to AR rifles. I personally found that the rifles I assembled with Noveske barrels and other high end components shot better than my Larue rifle. I subsequently sold my Larue, because it ended up just taking up space in my safe.
Best of luck to Larue. I would be a little concerned as a customer. I would like something tried and true on my $3,000 rifle. Making barrels is not as simple as buying the machinery.
Mark does some odd ball things. Seems like he feels that he has a corner on the market and does not need any dealer support.
There are a lot of other great options when it comes to AR rifles. I personally found that the rifles I assembled with Noveske barrels and other high end components shot better than my Larue rifle. I subsequently sold my Larue, because it ended up just taking up space in my safe.
Best of luck to Larue. I would be a little concerned as a customer. I would like something tried and true on my $3,000 rifle. Making barrels is not as simple as buying the machinery.
Yes. To lay out big money you shouldn't have to be a guinea pig. There is always a learning curve for new products. I like the quality of his other stuff but if he is way behind on orders its a natural inclination to pump them out the door. As soon as is rifling machine is set up.
I am/was a LaRue dealer. What RMW said is true. The plus side is that they honored orders that were placed before they dropped their dealers. I believe it was December 26th or 27th of 2012. I was super bummed at the news. I have only received three ARs as of July '13 and still have four on order. I live in small, remote, area with a lot of Border Patrol. They are good customers but I was a bit reluctant to dive off and buy a truck load of them. I wish I had. I talked to my sales rep a few weeks ago checking in on two PredatOBR's in .308 with 18" barrels and they still haven't released them for production. I was able to hold one at SHOT Show this past January,......awesome. While at SHOT, I stumbled upon Legion Firearms and bought in with them. I posted earlier asking what folks opinion was of them if there was any to be had. Legion got caught in the AR frenzy that ensued in December and are behind on production. I have some anxious customers awaiting. Great guys and great service, just a bit behind and that is to be expected. LaRue has been easy to deal with thus far but getting product in hand is making an old man out of me!!! I had not heard of them making their own barrels. I talked to GA Precision two weeks ago. I am considering buying in with them. I have heard good stuff about their AR platforms and their bolt guns speak for themselves.
Are these rifles rare? I got to play with one about a year ago, seemed like decent enough kit. I was not impressed with the $60 stock on a $3k rifle tho, so I had already pigeonholed them into my "ho-hum" rifle category. It shot decent enough, but lined up with a DPMS REPR, LMT, and a SASS nothing stood out to me, and it was the most expensive rifle in the bunch. I have nothing bad to say either, maybe it's the most reliable gun ever built. The canted rail was cool, however. I wish them luck on the bbl building process, the more the merrier and the better for us consumers I suppose. I was blissfully unaware people were literally waiting years for these things tho-go figure.
I don't own any Larue rifles, nor have I ordered one. So I don't have any financial investment in this issue. My thoughts are as follows.
Larue has worked very hard for a long time to get a reputation that I believe easily puts them in the top 5-10 manufacturers of AR type rifles. Of course who people think is best, or better will vary from person to person. However, I think it is unlikely that Larue would risk such a hard earned reputation by supplying substandard barrels. If he is going to make barrels, it seems more likely (to me) that he would want to maintain his hard earned reputation by using quality barrels.
It must be very frustrating to have orders you cannot fulfill because the supply chain leaves younwithout components like barrels. Making your own barrels, and gaining control over your supply chain makes business sense.
I completely understand someone's reluctance to buy early made barrels. Many years ago When I bought a Dodge Durango, I decided to stay with the 4.6 liter engine rather than getting the new, and unproven 5.0 liter engine. So I understand people wanting to wait until any major new component is proven.
In Larue's favor is my belief that he is unikely to supply anything that may diminish such a hard earned reputation for quality.
Larue has worked very hard for a long time to get a reputation that I believe easily puts them in the top 5-10 manufacturers of AR type rifles. Of course who people think is best, or better will vary from person to person. However, I think it is unlikely that Larue would risk such a hard earned reputation by supplying substandard barrels. If he is going to make barrels, it seems more likely (to me) that he would want to maintain his hard earned reputation by using quality barrels.
It must be very frustrating to have orders you cannot fulfill because the supply chain leaves younwithout components like barrels. Making your own barrels, and gaining control over your supply chain makes business sense.
I completely understand someone's reluctance to buy early made barrels. Many years ago When I bought a Dodge Durango, I decided to stay with the 4.6 liter engine rather than getting the new, and unproven 5.0 liter engine. So I understand people wanting to wait until any major new component is proven.
In Larue's favor is my belief that he is unikely to supply anything that may diminish such a hard earned reputation for quality.
I have an tOBR on order with them. I'm a chump and have paid in full. I'm pretty pissed and have skin in the game.
I would imagine that Larue will produce some good barrels simply because of their reputation... but that's a long shot. Personally I wish I didn't have $3k tied up in rifle that's not proven but that ship has sailed unfortunately.
I'd love to hear from some of the barrel manufacturers or folks that can ID some of that equipment on their opinions.
Slightly OT, I'm really worried about this detachable handguard on a precision rifle and unproven barrel. However, as soon as my GAP-10 is finished, my March 2012 tOBR order is up for sale or going back to Larue.
I would imagine that Larue will produce some good barrels simply because of their reputation... but that's a long shot. Personally I wish I didn't have $3k tied up in rifle that's not proven but that ship has sailed unfortunately.
I'd love to hear from some of the barrel manufacturers or folks that can ID some of that equipment on their opinions.
Slightly OT, I'm really worried about this detachable handguard on a precision rifle and unproven barrel. However, as soon as my GAP-10 is finished, my March 2012 tOBR order is up for sale or going back to Larue.
Put it up on ARFcom and I doubt that you'll have any trouble getting a good amount of your money back out of it....hell, I bet some folks would be willing to pay above MSRP just to have one without the wait!
I'm glad I got my OBR late in 2011 before all this madness started. I, too, would have a hard time swallowing having 3k down on a rifle with an unproven barrel. Mark has a lot on the line with this, and he'll almost certainly put out a good product. My biggest complaint with him is the lack of information provided to his customers. How hard would it have been to let folks know last year (especially those with a 3k+ rifle on order with him) that they were switching to making their barrels in-house? Why hold that back as a huge secret when there are people waiting and waiting for their rifles? I like my OBR, have been completely satisfied with it, but I can't see ordering another rifle from Larue until those barrels are well proven and the wait time comes down considerably.
USMAGator think about it like this. He charged people what 1500+ for a lower when ban was being talked about? How many lowers did he send out? He's basically got a interest free loan for god knows how much right now to have bought all that barrel equipment.
Never owned a LaRue but I've handled a couple. Definitely Tier 1 products that deliver outstanding results but if they're gonna screw (and I mean SCREW) their customers (some of whom cannot afford to wait while Marky Mark dicks around with some new shit) out of their money and force them to wait a goddamn year for their rifle it speaks volumes about their customer care (or lack thereof in this case). They should be cutting some massive discounts to those who are on back order and waiting a stupid length of time. To pretty much halt production and shipping of their rifles while they reinvent the wheel is horrible business practice and short sighted. In the end this will drive more and more people to other manufacturers who make just as good, if not better, rifles than LaRue and who more importantly, have them available a helluva lot quicker.
IMO why wait a year + for a LaRue when you can get a JP in a few months and not only will it be more accurate but the barrel life is stupid long (the rifles they sold to the Galapagos Islands Wildlife guys have over 40k rounds through them and they're still accurate!! O.O ). And then there's LWRC (combat proven and beloved by Marines who have them), Legion Firearms, War Sport Ind (makers of the LVOA), Daniel Defense, Noveske...yeah you get the idea.
The only Larue products I'll ever buy are their QD mounts...and even that's iffy at this point.
/endrant
Josh
IMO why wait a year + for a LaRue when you can get a JP in a few months and not only will it be more accurate but the barrel life is stupid long (the rifles they sold to the Galapagos Islands Wildlife guys have over 40k rounds through them and they're still accurate!! O.O ). And then there's LWRC (combat proven and beloved by Marines who have them), Legion Firearms, War Sport Ind (makers of the LVOA), Daniel Defense, Noveske...yeah you get the idea.
The only Larue products I'll ever buy are their QD mounts...and even that's iffy at this point.
/endrant
Josh
All you "waiters" do realize you can buy the guns on GB right now, no waiting, right?
To me that would be excusable IF he informed his customers that he was making that change. There's plenty of other places that make you pay in part for a rifle with a long wait, but generally you know exactly what you're getting. Also, if his new barrels don't pan out, he's gonna be up shit creek. I can't imagine, given Larue's customer service policy and reputation, that Mark will hang customers out with rifles that don't shoot up to par.....but until we know for sure, it certainly looks like piss poor business practice.
So the problem was....people didn't get notified about the lowers. They just heard from their FFL it showed up, and a large charge on their card was made.
Gotcha, I didn't realize that that was the case. I was referring to the barrel change, I'd be pissed if I'd been waiting a year while Larue was tooling up to make barrels without any notification of what the hold-up was.
$3500 + 1-3 YEAR WAIT + for a Button rifled barrel that is unproven from a company who has never made barrels before.
What could go wrong?
I think its funny that all the fanboys and retards over at ar15 talk shit about m4c and sniperhide, beacuse we don't ride MARK L's jock. He is a first class asshole, shit talking spinmaster that never directly awsners any serious or confrontational questions. His army of idiot drones (most who couldn't even afford one of his rifles) come out the woodwork to blast someone trying to bring up a point.
They think we all just hate them and thats why we critizise them. We don't hate them, we just tell it like it is.
His overpriced products are no longer the industry leader. His mounting system is archaic and has been surpassed. He does offer some unique mounts that other's don't. His rifles are nice, but overpriced. Too much propoganda and bullshit in his marketing. Nothing like a little dilo dust and your 8th copy of the 2011 ISC to keep a customer coming back. People don't realized his overpriced shit is what allows him to throw that crap in your order.
FYI, this is coming from someone who has spent thousands of dollars on larue products over the years, not including any rifles/uppers/lowers.
What could go wrong?
I think its funny that all the fanboys and retards over at ar15 talk shit about m4c and sniperhide, beacuse we don't ride MARK L's jock. He is a first class asshole, shit talking spinmaster that never directly awsners any serious or confrontational questions. His army of idiot drones (most who couldn't even afford one of his rifles) come out the woodwork to blast someone trying to bring up a point.
They think we all just hate them and thats why we critizise them. We don't hate them, we just tell it like it is.
His overpriced products are no longer the industry leader. His mounting system is archaic and has been surpassed. He does offer some unique mounts that other's don't. His rifles are nice, but overpriced. Too much propoganda and bullshit in his marketing. Nothing like a little dilo dust and your 8th copy of the 2011 ISC to keep a customer coming back. People don't realized his overpriced shit is what allows him to throw that crap in your order.
FYI, this is coming from someone who has spent thousands of dollars on larue products over the years, not including any rifles/uppers/lowers.
Or he took all the deposits and used that as intrest free loans to buy new tooling and machining........
Why did he take full deposits, is he going to pay interest to those who have been waiting over a year?
He didn't take full payments from everyone, only a few. Most were charged around 2k for the stripped lower with some random parts thrown in. Some had fde stocks, some black (didn't matter what you ordered), alot had a different trigger than the geissele trigger thats supposed to come with it. You were supposed to just keep all the parts in the box, and when your number comes up, you ship it back on Larue's dime and they complete the rifle and ship it back to your house. The interest he pays back would be in the form of dillos and dust
Blind followers led to the alter of Larue in order slurp down the Kool Aide while paying out of their pocket to do so.... Heh Heh Heh... I'll say it over and over again the OBR is a nice rifle and very accurate too. But it is nothing special, it shoots submoa like any good match SS .308AR will but you can't tell that to the Laruminatti.... When thy went over a year wait I wouldn't have thought twice about them but when it went to an unknown date with no communication......well eff that!
I hope he does get the barrels right simply for all those Laruminatti that have invested in the Holy Grail OBR....
I hope he does get the barrels right simply for all those Laruminatti that have invested in the Holy Grail OBR....
WOW! If Mark is that big of an asshole I'm glad I've never had the privlege of talking to him. He has sure pissed some people off? I just wanted to say when they sent me my lower reciever and charged me $1200 this January, I thought it was awesome. I wondered why more companies werent doing that also? The reason they did this was because of the push to ban "assault rifles". No one knew when or if it would happen, but once he sent the lower, and it was registered in my name, I slept alot better knowing it was in my possession. I dont know Mark, but I have never recieved anything from Larue that I wasnt happy with, and god forbid if things had went the other way with the ban, I'm glad they sent the lower early. As far as barrels go, I'm glad I'm on the sidelines waiting to see how everything pans out with them. Also as far as the old Pratt and Whitney Lathes go for being the only type machine to produce quality barrels, I believe Bartlein is using much newer technology than most of the other manufactuers.
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I never said they were the only type, but a majority of the best barrels are made using ages old technology. I used to make rifle barrels for a living. And I'm good friends with most of the major manufacturers.
Yeah - I love my OBR and PredatAR, but damn the wait has gotten stupid. STUPID.
And oddly, while making barrels isn't something you "just do", I am surprised that Larue is having such an intense problem with it. He should have been able to bring in a consultant capable of imparting the knowledge necessary and make the machinery necessary even in house if needed.
If I had to guess what it was, I would have probably said the main time drag these days is getting the 250,000 rounds needed to test a barrel run setup.
And oddly, while making barrels isn't something you "just do", I am surprised that Larue is having such an intense problem with it. He should have been able to bring in a consultant capable of imparting the knowledge necessary and make the machinery necessary even in house if needed.
If I had to guess what it was, I would have probably said the main time drag these days is getting the 250,000 rounds needed to test a barrel run setup.
I was going to write a longer post but this summaries everything. I wonder if there is some designer drug embedded in the dillo dust. Because a free baseball hat and a 50 cent bottle cap opener doesn't go far IMO.
I think Larue has VG quality. But it's expensive. His ego doesn't bother me.
Very surprising. Barrel manufacture is quite competitive as evidenced by the endless threads here and elsewhere regarding who is better than who. I rather doubt that the margin in such a competitive field is probably very high and therefore I doubt much money is to be saved in-sourcing the process. Top flight benchrest quality barrels only cost around $300 a blank when not bought in quantity. This is not a significant amount when dealing with a costly Larue rifle. The minimal cost savings coupled with the huge amount of information to be learned makes me suspect that this may be more of a passion than a business decision. I can't imagine the amount of time it would take to learn all that someone like Dan Lilja knows about barrel making in order to compete with him.
Despite all of this, Mark has been successful in his endeavors thus far. I'm not about to count him out even if it does seem like a very irrational field to enter to me.
Despite all of this, Mark has been successful in his endeavors thus far. I'm not about to count him out even if it does seem like a very irrational field to enter to me.
Rather than be quick to judge, I'll wait for the final product to judge whether it was a good business decision or not. I hardly doubt this was a hasty business decision and am going to bet they have been doing plenty of R&D before making the decision to go forward in this newest venture.
I don't own any Larue products and probably never will. He seems to have high standards and make a quality product. I'm sure he is smart enough to hire someone to run his barrel making department that has ten + years of quality barrel making experience. Try and remember that one of the secrets to all successful businessmen is that they are smart enough to surround themselves with really good talent. I'm sure whoever Mr. Larue decides to have head up this new part of his business will be very well qualified. Just my 2 cents. Personally I would buy a Gap or JP, and not worry about the wait. Oh I forgot I already did.
I don't get the Larue hate here?
I have owned a couple of their products and was happy with them and the customer service they provided, is there something I'm missing?
The way I see it, guy has a serious problem with filling orders due to lack of components.
He takes steps to solve the problem by spending capital so that he may manufacture said components in-house.
That seems like sound logic to me, yet for some reason everyone is shitting on them.
Would you rather the company continue to operate on a 2 year backlog or would you prefer that they outsource to other suppliers that may produce inferior quality barrels?
I think they made the right business decision.
I have owned a couple of their products and was happy with them and the customer service they provided, is there something I'm missing?
The way I see it, guy has a serious problem with filling orders due to lack of components.
He takes steps to solve the problem by spending capital so that he may manufacture said components in-house.
That seems like sound logic to me, yet for some reason everyone is shitting on them.
Would you rather the company continue to operate on a 2 year backlog or would you prefer that they outsource to other suppliers that may produce inferior quality barrels?
I think they made the right business decision.
Sorry...last May meaning May 2013. I am just glad that I don't have any money down and probably have some time to make my decision.
Being that the raw materials for a barrel cost less than $30 there is room to pay for labor and machinery and still save a dollar or two.
Don't understand the hate eh?
Ok here we go. Mark is a Class A Fucking Asshole. He's insulted and to my knowledge actively tried to fuck over the owner of the board here. He's insulted and talked down to one of the best smiths out there on this board, and he's been a fucking asshole to the members of this forum.
Hell I called him on a design flaw on his precious OBR, and when he employed a solution to fix it. The giveway was a stab at me because I had the audacity to question him on the design.
As far as I'm concerned I hope his business burns into the fucking ground and him along with it.
That explanation enough on why there is even a little bit of "dislike" for Mark on here?
Nobody had a cow when Daniel Defense starting making their own barrels saying they were somehow incapable. You'll just have to wait and see, but DD makes damn good barrels.
Also, tell Bartlein the best barrels are made on WWI machinery.
If a company makes their own barrels when their weak link in the supply chain was barrels, it should help with their wait times. For over 2 years, they have been claiming their wait time was long due to barrels. They are trying it seems.
Also, tell Bartlein the best barrels are made on WWI machinery.
If a company makes their own barrels when their weak link in the supply chain was barrels, it should help with their wait times. For over 2 years, they have been claiming their wait time was long due to barrels. They are trying it seems.
I own an OBR 5.56, I couldn't be happier with it. Regardless of your personal opinion of Mr. Larue, they make quality guns. I have no doubt they will put out decent barrels as well.
There are plenty of companies out there that make quality guns. I can build just as nice of a rifle, for less money. The one rifle I can't build any better than from the factory are KAC rifles....... and that's exactly why I buy them.
Larue is nothing special. I can rattle off 5 other companies that make just as good or better rifles. Those companies aren't owned by egotistical assholes who talk shit to anyone who doens't kiss his and his products ass. They build rifles, and shut the fuck up....... and build more rifles. Sometimes I think M Larue's Job is to talk shit and for a hobby, he makes guns and accsesories. The man has no balls.
I own an OBR 7.62 and a PredatAR 5.56. Both rifles shoot 1/2 Moa groups with factory match.
While I'm not a fan of the guy that owns the company, I can not deny that the rifles he built me are the most accurate ARs I've ever had the pleasure of owning.
Having said that, the only rifle I've ever purchased that gave me a feeling of quality to match or that was better than my Larues was my GAP custom.
I did get lucky in acquiring the Larue rifles though in that the PredatAR was a 1 month wait and the OBR was a 3 month wait with no money upfront. Not sure I could handle a 2 year wait with them holding my money. Kind of how it is with JAE.
Having said that, asshole or not, Larue has quite the reputation to uphold and I seriously doubt he'd risk it with sub standard barrels.
Btw from what my dealer told me, every single time Larue rifles were late or backordered, it was always a lack of barrels.
While I'm not a fan of the guy that owns the company, I can not deny that the rifles he built me are the most accurate ARs I've ever had the pleasure of owning.
Having said that, the only rifle I've ever purchased that gave me a feeling of quality to match or that was better than my Larues was my GAP custom.
I did get lucky in acquiring the Larue rifles though in that the PredatAR was a 1 month wait and the OBR was a 3 month wait with no money upfront. Not sure I could handle a 2 year wait with them holding my money. Kind of how it is with JAE.
Having said that, asshole or not, Larue has quite the reputation to uphold and I seriously doubt he'd risk it with sub standard barrels.
Btw from what my dealer told me, every single time Larue rifles were late or backordered, it was always a lack of barrels.
That may hold true for a few makers but not all the big makers use old technology still. One of the best in the world designs their own equipment to rifle.
I have no doubt that KAC is top notch but they are the most overpriced guns out there. I guess they have their mil contracts and could care less about sticking it too the average Joe. Nothing about a KAC gun makes it worth 2k$ more then any other top notch gun like JP, Larue, or Gap.
No offense, but you know little about KAC products. If you know what kind of units and agencies are buying their products, and putting shit like the SCAR17 and other systems in the weapons locker, then you wouldn't say that.
They offer what no other companies offer. They have put more R&D into that AR10 platform than all of the other companies combined most likley. Ever seen a E3 Bolt fail? How many companies will warranty their bolts for 25K (something like that) rnds?
Have you even shot their rifles? LMT, Larue, GAP, ect.... all use COTS parts for the most part. You could source together most of those parts, and with some quality smithing and care, build a very similar rifle. Many times you can build a better rifle (GAP uses POF parts.....they shoot, but no one is taking one in the hindu kush) for around the same price. I have ALWAYS built my own AR's... That is what made me love the system so much. After shooting a SR-15 and MK11, I realized that I have to own them. Does not even compare.
I used to think KAC products were overpriced. Well maybe they are, but they offer shit no one else offers. Their designs shoot softer and I would argue are more reliable than the other brands. There is nothing wrong with GAP/LMT/LARUE, they all make great products, but KAC is a step ahead for a couple of reasons.
The is reason NSWC, MARSOC, Dept of state, ect are buying a shit load of new SR-25 variants to outfit and replace their legacy systems. Their contract price is also considerably less than some of the other known rifles withing USSOCOM. They can't sell a rifle for less to the public than to the government, But when the government backrolls the development of a systems * HINT*, the unit price goes through the roof. As far as I know, KAC pays for its own R&D, and they seem to have no shortage of people and organizations lining up to pay $5K for a .308 rifle
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No offense taken. At least you admit they are over priced. I have shot almost every brand rifle out there, and KAC is nice, but they are just passing that huge R&D budget on to the average shooter.
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