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Lathe vibration

LC 6.5 Shooter

Apollo 6 Creed
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Minuteman
May 29, 2018
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League City, TX
Ive got a grizzly gunsmith lathe 13x36. It has noticeable vibration above 300 rpms. It sits on the adjustable runner feet.

Just getting into doing my own barrel work. Any suggestions on the vibration.

What issues will vibration cause? I know I can use my floating reamer holder for chambering but what about turning down tenon? I know I can use hss tools and slower spindle speed. All my tools are currently carbide except one threading tool.
 

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If the jaws on the 4 jaw chuck are not all close to the same position relative from center, that can cause vibration at higher rpm. The centrifugal force will basically be out of balance. Anchor the machine to the concrete if you can for more stability as well. The vibration will cause chatter in your cuts.
 
I took a shot out barrel and parted off thread and then dialed it in to 0.0001 runout. As long as I stay lower rpm vibration isn’t noticeable.
 
Anchoring will not fix the source of the vibration. Google "Grizzly lathe vibration," you're not the first to have issues. Is the vibration still there with w/o the 4-jaw? If so, start working back.
 
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Anchoring will not fix the source of the vibration. Google "Grizzly lathe vibration," you're not the first to have issues. Is the vibration still there with w/o the 4-jaw? If so, start working back.
Haven’t tried it without the 4 jaw. Ive got a three jaw I can put on and try.
 
👆
Yeah try running it without the chuck first. I guarantee they do not balance those chucks.
 
Ive got a grizzly gunsmith lathe 13x36. It has noticeable vibration above 300 rpms. It sits on the adjustable runner feet.

Just getting into doing my own barrel work. Any suggestions on the vibration.

What issues will vibration cause? I know I can use my floating reamer holder for chambering but what about turning down tenon? I know I can use hss tools and slower spindle speed. All my tools are currently carbide except one threading tool.
Their chucks can be rough as hell.
Most are designed with the main chuck body bolted onto a backplate/mounting plate. This can allow the mass of the chuck body to not be concentric with the spindle and produce vibration.

On some of those grade of chucks, even if they are literally dialed in, they can still induce vibrations at speed because the castings used in the chuck body are not completely cleaned up and will have uneven mass around the circumference.

Just something else to look into. Your lathe is not very heavy and will be quick to exhibit vibrations with the least little bit of anything not balanced when spinning.

./
 
Their chucks can be rough as hell.
Most are designed with the main chuck body bolted onto a backplate/mounting plate. This can allow the mass of the chuck body to not be concentric with the spindle and produce vibration.

On some of those grade of chucks, even if they are literally dialed in, they can still induce vibrations at speed because the castings used in the chuck body are not completely cleaned up and will have uneven mass around the circumference.

Just something else to look into. Your lathe is not very heavy and will be quick to exhibit vibrations with the least little bit of anything not balanced when spinning.

./
Got it. Thanks I was looking at new chucks already. Any recommendations on a good but not break the bank one. Im a hobbyist. I was looking at gator chucks but they are pretty expensive.
 
Yeah, I meant no chuck. That's starting w/ easiest then work backwards. Some of the google results mention bad belts, out of balance motors, etc. But eliminate the chuck(s) first.
 
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I have a Grizzly drill press. They are known to have badly out of balance motors.
My drill press was so bad that it was hard to start to drill a hole as the drill tip was a quivering blur.
Anyway, removed the motor, and dismantled it.
**If you do this...make sure you have unplugged the power source first!**
It's only an electric motor...easy as (these things are bog standard basic).
The armature (the spinny thingy with the copper segments) will have a lot of solder on it where everything attaches.
There will be globs and lumps of abundant solder.
File down all the big lumps and globs.
I made a 'knife edge' system mounted in my vice and sat the armature on that so it could freely rotate so the heaviest bit would be wanting to go the bottom.
Filed off more blobs and lumps of solder and marked with chalk where the heavy side was as I checked on my knife edge gadget.
Finally the armature would not revolve around anymore, and would just sit where I placed it.
Put it all back together and problem fixed.
Drill press is quiet and smooth...no wobbles or rattles.
So if your chucks are OK, maybe have a look at your motor.
Can you remove the motor and then plug it in to observe it running on the floor? Any out of balance wobbles will be easily seen.
If you have the nouse then you could do what I did to balance the motor.
Or...be safe and borrow another (good quality) electric motor to run your lathe for a while.
See if that cures the problem.
BUT...if that's a new lathe maybe send it back under warranty and get another one?
 
I have a Grizzly drill press. They are known to have badly out of balance motors.
My drill press was so bad that it was hard to start to drill a hole as the drill tip was a quivering blur.
Anyway, removed the motor, and dismantled it.
**If you do this...make sure you have unplugged the power source first!**
It's only an electric motor...easy as (these things are bog standard basic).
The armature (the spinny thingy with the copper segments) will have a lot of solder on it where everything attaches.
There will be globs and lumps of abundant solder.
File down all the big lumps and globs.
I made a 'knife edge' system mounted in my vice and sat the armature on that so it could freely rotate so the heaviest bit would be wanting to go the bottom.
Filed off more blobs and lumps of solder and marked with chalk where the heavy side was as I checked on my knife edge gadget.
Finally the armature would not revolve around anymore, and would just sit where I placed it.
Put it all back together and problem fixed.
Drill press is quiet and smooth...no wobbles or rattles.
So if your chucks are OK, maybe have a look at your motor.
Can you remove the motor and then plug it in to observe it running on the floor? Any out of balance wobbles will be easily seen.
If you have the nouse then you could do what I did to balance the motor.
Or...be safe and borrow another (good quality) electric motor to run your lathe for a while.
See if that cures the problem.
BUT...if that's a new lathe maybe send it back under warranty and get another one?
I have a really basic question regarding motor vibration.

Isn't the motor on most (non digital speed control) lathes including this one running at a constant RPM regardless of spindle RPM?
All spindle speeds are manipulated through the headstock gearing with the motor remaining at the same RPM?

If this is the case (I am no expert so take that for what it's worth) then his vibration shouldn't just show up at spindle speeds >300rpm.
Whether he is running his chuck at 30rpm or 600rpm the motor should exhibit the same vibration if any at all across all spindle speeds.

./
 
Is your motor single phase? If I recall correctly some Grizzly lather owners have swapped their single phase motors out for three phase and had the vibrations reduce.
 
Is your motor single phase? If I recall correctly some Grizzly lather owners have swapped their single phase motors out for three phase and had the vibrations reduce.

Chinese lathe spindles aren't very well balanced, and the chucks are usually pretty out of balance as well. I balanced my 3 jaw and it made a noticeable improvement. I didn't bother with the 4 jaw.

By far, the biggest improvement came when I swapped my chinese motor out with a Siemens 3 phase motor and a Teco VFD. It gave me a massive improvement in vibration, noise and surface finish. Especially in surface finish, and a big improvement in parting too.

The advantages dont stop there either.

With the motor control options the VFD has, acceleration and deceleration is very smooth and quiet.

I also installed a 4 way joystick jog switch for threading. On the joystick, left and right run the spindle forward/reverse @ 1/3 normal rpm. Down and up run it forward/reverse @ normal rpm. I set up the left/right low speed joystick jog functions to rapid stop using VFD braking.

Using the joystick In conjunction with VFD motor braking, , I can thread metric or inch, up to a shoulder without ever disengaging the half nut.

Left joystick takes a cutting pass, release the joystick stops the spindle instantly. Back the cross slide out a turn, then joystick up reverses the spindle at full speed, then feed the cross slide in a full turn, dial the next depth of cut on the compound and joystick left for the next pass. Repeat until finished.

The VFDs control inputs are wired through the lathes factory contactors, so all of the lathes factory controls and reversing lockouts work normally.

After using a 3 phase VFD setup, I'll never go back to a single phase motor. I like it so much that I swapped my mill over the same way. I put a joystick jog on it for tapping holes.

My custom cerakoted lathe panel



And the mill





The smoothness of power delivery from a 3 phase motor is vastly superior to that of a single phase.

While not completely or technically accurate, a decent analogy would be comparing a normal bicycle to a 3 seater bicycle. The normal bicycle gets power pulses 180 degrees apart, with each push of the pedals. So kinda a surge, surge, surge type power delivery, timed with the power companies 60hz AC frequency, with only one pedal, split by the motors run capacitor to serve as if it were two pedals.

A 3 seater has three sets of pedals, so power pulses are overlapping one another, resulting in much smoother power delivery. With a VFD, your also not limited the the power companies 60hz frequency.


The ability to vary the frequency let's you adjust the motor speed. Between the VFD and headstock gearing, I can go from 20rpm up to almost 3000.


 
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Leveling it is easy enough with the jack screws in the base stand and a good machinists level.

This, along with the other suggestions offered.

I am not familiar with Grizzly lathes. Look at the adjustable feet, hopefully they are hollow, like a threaded heavy wall tube. If you want to chase the rabbit a bit, get the lathe in its final location and mark locations for anchor bolts that go through the hollow adjustable feet. Move the lathe, drill and install anchors (floor thickness?), set the lathe back and level. Now you can push up and pull down with the feet. This can help if you need to fix a slight twist in the bed. Once level torque the anchors and recheck level. Lathe something, wait until tomorrow, say hello to the rabbit, let the day/night temperatures cycle, recheck level.

This will help level and twist (if you even have any). Chuck and motor balance is a different rabbit, as you well know.

Thank you,
MrSmith
 
Good points. And on a lathe like this bolting to to the floor will do little to mitigate vibration, since the lower half of that grizzly is not much more than a sheet metal cabinet.
Level it, check for twist, balance the chuck and enjoy.
 
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Got it. Thanks I was looking at new chucks already. Any recommendations on a good but not break the bank one. Im a hobbyist. I was looking at gator chucks but they are pretty expensive.
Don’t buy one yet. First thing to do is take that chuck off and turn on the spindle to see if the vibration goes away.
 
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Don’t buy one yet. First thing to do is take that chuck off and turn on the spindle to see if the vibration goes away.

Exactly. And don't stop with the chuck.

The motor pulley and other pulleys are possible sources.

Run it without a chuck, if the vibration is still there, run it in neutral, to eliminate the spindle.

If it vibrates in neutral, but stops when the belts removed, replace the belt. If it still vibrates after replacing the belt, balance the driven pulley.


If it's still there without the belt, run the motor with no pulley. Using some logic and the process of elimination, you'll be able to narrow it down. Chances are, your issue is a combination of several things.

I ended up balancing my 3 jaw chuck and the large intermediate pulley. Both were pretty bad. A new high quality belt helped a bit, as the Chinese crap belt had a hard spot. The 3 phase motor swap was the biggest improvement in vibration.

My spindle could use some balance work too, but it has so many keyways throwing it off that I would have to get pretty creative to remove that much metal without ruining it.

Overall, it's good enough that I can run it at all speeds except 700-750 rpm with a nickel balanced on-edge, on the headstock. @ 700-750 there's a vibration from the spindle that I just can't seem to get rid of. Not horrible, but the nickel won't stand stay up more than a couple seconds in that speed range.
 
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Exactly. And don't stop with the chuck.

The motor pulley and other pulleys are possible sources.

Run it without a chuck, if the vibration is still there, run it in neutral, to eliminate the spindle.

If it vibrates in neutral, but stops when the belts removed, replace the belt. If it still vibrates after replacing the belt, balance the driven pulley.


If it's still there without the belt, run the motor with no pulley. Using some logic and the process of elimination, you'll be able to narrow it down. Chances are, your issue is a combination of several things.

I ended up balancing my 3 jaw chuck and the large intermediate pulley. Both were pretty bad. A new high quality belt helped a bit, as the Chinese crap belt had a hard spot. The 3 phase motor swap was the biggest improvement in vibration.

My spindle could use some balance work too, but it has so many keyways throwing it off that I would have to get pretty creative to remove that much metal without ruining it.

Overall, it's good enough that I can run it at all speeds except 700-750 rpm with a nickel balanced on-edge, on the headstock. @ 700-750 there's a vibration from the spindle that I just can't seem to get rid of. Not horrible, but the nickel won't stand stay up more than a couple seconds in that speed range.
There are mobile vendors who will come to you with laser equip to run all your attachments and get each unit balanced to that spindle. The alternative is to buy a Weiler. Every part, and every shaft assembly is balanced prior to final machine build. Sometimes cheap ain't cheap.

Alan
 
I have been apprenticing on a 3-jaw LeBlond w/ DRO for gunsmithing purposes, a few years now, remain a rank amateur amongst the pro's on this forum. But have been considering buying a smaller lathe for small part fabrication e.g. small part screw threading, etc.
IMG_5714 copy.JPG
 
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Sounds like it’s time for a quality balanced chuck
 
Recommendations?

Not much to lose by watching a few YouTube videos and trying to balance it yourself.



If you can't improve it, your in the same place you are now. If you don't want to mess with it, look at Bison, Gator or Kalamazoo chucks. I've had good luck with all of them.

Or, scan ebay for a used Rohm. Or, a new Rohm if your independently wealthy.

You might find http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/ to be a useful resource.
 
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It might be worth trying a self balance.might be able to get it pretty damn good
 
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Thinking out loud.

If you've already checked for vibration with out the chuck mounted...

Mount the chuck
Remove the jaws.
Run the master jaws all the way and adjust so they run concentric.
Disconnect or disengage the drive so the chuck spins freely.

Use a "grinding wheel balance technique" to balance the chuck body
Spin it by hand and let it stop on its own.
Mark the chuck body at top dead center "TDC"
Spin it again to see if it repeats.
If it does then remove weight via drilling shallow holes opposite your mark. (On the bottom. That's the heavy side.)
Stay shallow when drilling, increase the drill diameter incrementally repeating the above spinning until the heavy spot dissappears.
Move to each side of the original hole equally in depth if multiple holes are needed.
Do not drill through maintain some thickness.

There are probably you tube videos on balancing a grinding wheel that will show the process except they are adding weight.

I started my machining career running a dynamic balancing machine balancing flywheels.
As part of my job now I run a precision grinder now and balance the wheels statically the old school. Currently skilled trades machinist doing R&D support machining for a big yellow tractor company.
I also check machine spindles as part of machine acceptance testing with a Lion Precision Spindle Error Analyzer (about $55k, but that doesn't do you much good over the interwebs. Just putting out my experience, whether it's worth anything or not.
 
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I took a shot out barrel and parted off thread and then dialed it in to 0.0001 runout. As long as I stay lower rpm vibration isn’t noticeable.
All those operations you are worried about should be done at slow speeds. Slow it down and work with it.
 
If you still have the vibration, take the chuck to a racing engine shop, they should have a balancing machine for doing crankshafts / rotating assemblies and should be able to get the chuck within a couple of grams of imbalance.
 
I recommend getting a good chuck. Even if you balance a chinesium chuck......it will never be consistent. It will also have rough operation and springy jaws. Why polish a turd when you can just spend the money and solve your problem. How do you want to spend your time, chasing your tail on a cheap setup or machining good barrels?

Ern
 
I run Bison and TMX 6-jaw. I like the light clamping force of a 6-jaw while still gripping enough to take pretty heavy cuts. They work great on thin walled tubing as well with minimal distortion. In my experience, collets are the best but barrels have too much variance unless you do a prep pass to set the holding diameter.......which can be a pain especially on carbon wrapped barrels.

Ern