Leaking Primers

[Bigwheels]

Recently, I have been experiencing the odd round leaking around the primer seal. I can't find any reason for the ones that leak. Here is what I have:
300Wm 28" Kreiger 1-10"
WW Brass, & WLRM primers
225gr Hor HPBT that I moly with Midway moly coat.
H-1000 @ 74.1 gr. which gives 2865 fps (compressed load)
I did my load work with a different powder lot, & was shooting .192" @ 100yd. But once in a while I would get gas leakage from around the primer with both lots. The primers are not flattened at all, but my firing pin should be bushed as any load I shoot will give cratering with huge radius showing on the primers, while my hunting rifle will flatten them out pretty good with no cratering.
I have dropped my load 2 times, & set the seating depth back also with the same results. Maybe 1 in 20 rnds will leak. And I have marked the brass that the primer seated with slightly less pressure, & those ones have never leaked, while another that seated firmer did. Some have leaked enough to have etched my bolt face, & I don't know where to go from here.
Any help is appreciated.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Here is a pic of the latest blown primer. There is a small hole, or crack in the side just under the radius. [img:left]

[/img]

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Leaking Primers

Too much pressure and/or worn out primer pockets.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Leaking Primers

You're about the 10th person I've heard have blown/leaking primers using Winchester primers.

I recommend switching to CCI.

For the record, I strenuously disagree with the loose primer pocket contention...

The minor press fit between primer and pocket isn't what seals the 60ksi of pressure in the case. The 60ksi of pressure blows the sidewall of the primer cup outwards, sealing it against the pocket, much the same as how the caseneck blows out and seals against the chamber.

 

[ZY100]

Re: Leaking Primers

Already a thread on this--http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=297463&Number=3507322#Post3507322

Original poster got $$ from Win and told his batch had some stress cracks in the primer brass that caused the issue.

I had a few leak on a known good/lower presure load and am convinced it was a bad batch. I have shot 1000's of win primers with similar/hotter loads and not had the problem before. I dont think the issue is overpressure or a need to switch brands--but there was definitely a QC issue on a batch or two.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Leaking Primers

Had a buddy this summer shooting a 260 using WW primers and he blew so many primers it ate up his bolt face on his Savage LRP. He's not shooting hot loads but it's interesting to hear others have had the same problem, we've suspected primers but he's too stubborn to switch over to CCIs so he's replacing his bolt face a second time but switching over to new brass thinking that would solve the problem. He's still using Rem 260 brass and we've had bad luck with the pockets loosening up and thought that might also be part of it. I think I'll give him a pack of CCI 200s and let him compare.

Topstrap

 

[former naval person]

Re: Leaking Primers

Bad batch. Go away. JMHO

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Thanks guys. I have been chasing this around for some time now, & untill today's look under the magnifying glass I hadn't seen the small hole. I assumed it was loose pockets, but I had one blow in once fired brass with stiff seating primers. Looking @ the radius on the fired primers I couldn't buy over pressure. I'll look over the other thread, & see if any lot #'s are posted, & call Winchester. BTW, I have 5K of these primers still, but I think the rest are a different lot from a few yrs ago.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Leaking Primers

overpressure + 1

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

I was finally able to get a contact number for Winchester ammunition. After searching for 1/2 an hour on line, I finally had to call the cust support for winchester firearms, & they were kind enough to give me the number. Nowhere on the ammo website is there a contact info tab to click on, & thier FAQ is worse than a joke. I then looked for Olin Corp cantact info, & they refered me to the ammo website again. Now I'm Pi$$t. I left a message , & thier recording said I would be contacted within 1 bus day. I guess we'll see.
I tryed the link above, but it didn't work, so I did a search, & found a thread from a guy with a 300WSM from last yr that had the exact same problem, with pics, etc. Identical to mine. No lot #'s were posted tho. So the lot I'm having issues with is EAL234G.

Over pressure...realy? Did you read the OP? Did you see the large radius on the primer in the pic?

 

[gau17]

Re: Leaking Primers

it also looks like your primers were starting to crater. I also think it's from overpressure.

 

[MtnCreek]

Re: Leaking Primers

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3538754&page=1

Try this one; copy / paste if needed.

A member here gave me some contact info for Winchester:
800-356-2666
ext. 3697 or ext. 3565

I had a similar problem. Switched to CCI 250's and no more problems...

 

[turbo54]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gau17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it also looks like your primers were starting to crater. I also think it's from overpressure. </div></div>

Ugh...

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gau17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it also looks like your primers were starting to crater. I also think it's from overpressure. </div></div>
I would think that too, except that this bolt needs to bush the firing pin. It will crater even the lightest loads, while the same primer in my other rifle will FLATTEN the primer good with no cratering. I explained this in the OP. This is about the 2100+ rnd of this load fired in this rifle with some of the brass on its 6th firing. The problem started some time ago,(several hundred) & I have reduced the load, backed the bullet away from the lands, & switched powders to no avail. I just broke into another lot of primers, & I'll load some up with those, & see what happens.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3538754&page=1

Try this one; copy / paste if needed.

A member here gave me some contact info for Winchester:
800-356-2666
ext. 3697 or ext. 3565

I had a similar problem. Switched to CCI 250's and no more problems...

</div></div>
Thanks. I looked over that thread, & from the pics his load is hotter than mine. His primers are flattened almost as bad as my hunting rifle does them. But I don't get any cratering from that one. The holes are in the same place too, & seems like others have had similar issues with Win primers recently. Also, after somewhere about 6-7K rnds I've loaded this is the 1st time I have ever had a blown primer. The first time it happened, I was shocked, & probably spent several hundred $$ downloading, etc. to see what was going on.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Leaking Primers

FWIW I have a box of winchester primers I picked up fall of 2008 that are having issues. Stopped using them as it seemed one in every 20 or so would have a pin hole form near the corner radius. This with stardard loads.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: Leaking Primers

It's just a bad seal between the primer and pocket. Gas is leaking out, and causing it to deposit there.

Also, the cratering around the firing pin indent tells me that either the load was too hot, or the cup too thin. Either one will cause the raised area around a primer indention.

I wouldn't be surprised to see accuracy deteriorate in the cases that are exhibiting this behavior.

 

[rusty815]

Re: Leaking Primers

I think its due to worn out primer pockets, I had this happen to me a few weeks ago with my 300WSM and Remington brass, I had the same round with a different powder load to the same pressure with Winchester brass and had no leakage, the Remington brass had worn out and somewhat loose primer pockets which were causing the primers to leak, even with a load that has been safe for 3 firings.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Look at the pics again. There are holes in the primer radius. Both my pic, & the latest one. Holes in the same place. Also I tested mine with once fired brass, & marked the ones that seated easily, & those didn't blow, but another one did.

 

[ZY100]

Re: Leaking Primers

Why does everyone yell cratered primers, overpressure? Most of the time it (ETS "it" being the cratering)is from a sloppy firing pin to bolt firing pin hole fit (ETA: vice overpressure).

Regardless, this I know;

1) This is a known good load, 45.0 of Varget, 168 SMK, running about 2525fps in this rifle.
2) Never had a problem, first tray of primers from a new box of 1000. Lot DFL727G.
3) This is not a cratered or flattened primer.
4) With no previous issues, 2 of 15 rounds did this then I stopped shooting.
5) Please don't try to tell me you see an ejector mark by the "E".

I expect a bad lot...will be calling Win for a replacement.

Your thoughts?

ZY

 

[turbo54]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's just a bad seal between the primer and pocket. Gas is leaking out, and causing it to deposit there.

Also, the cratering around the firing pin indent tells me that either the load was too hot, or the cup too thin. Either one will cause the raised area around a primer indention.

I wouldn't be surprised to see accuracy deteriorate in the cases that are exhibiting this behavior.

</div></div>

No.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Anyone know what the lot #'s mean? My lot was **L###G, & both the other lots I'm seeing have the same letters before, & after the number.

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZY100</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why does everyone yell cratered primers, overpressure? Most of the time it is a sloppy firing pin to bolt firing pin hole fit.

Regardless, this I know;

1) This is a known good load, 45.0 of Varget, 168 SMK, running about 2525fps in this rifle.
2) Never had a problem, first tray of primers from a new box of 1000. Lot DFL727G.
3) This is not a cratered or flattened primer.
4) With no previous issues, 2 of 15 rounds did this then I stopped shooting.
5) Please don't try to tell me you see an ejector mark by the "E".

I expect a bad lot...will be calling Win for a replacement.

Your thoughts?

ZY

</div></div>

This example isn't a cratered primer. A little flattened, but not cratered. I'd blame the flattened primer and leakage to bad brass.

Cratering is seen in the OPs original pic of the primer. See where the edges of the primer indent are protruding PAST the surface of the primer? That's cratering. Imagine a crater that has raised sides around it higher than the ground outside of the area.

See the difference?

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Leaking Primers

That is not flattened anymore than what is normal and something to remember, remington bolts are designed to crater primers now and have been for some time.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know what the lot #'s mean? My lot was **L###G, & both the other lots I'm seeing have the same letters before, & after the number.</div></div>

I will check mine tonight.

 

[hugo121175]

Re: Leaking Primers

I also had this problem.... I called Winchester, and they had me mail in five loaded rounds. The techs there pulled a couple apart to test consistency, and pressure tested others.... I was told by the techs at Winchester that they were having problems were during the manufacturing process. Crack are appearing on the bend of the outer primer cup. This weakness is what has allowed the failure to occur....

Winchester in turn mailed me $50 in certificates for Winchester products, but would not pay for the damage to my bolt....

Call: 800-356-2666 ext: 3697, or ext 3565 They are the guys who work on my issues....

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3373855#Post3373855

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Well what do you know. No call back today from Winchester. Not surprising.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Leaking Primers


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know what the lot #'s mean? My lot was **L###G, & both the other lots I'm seeing have the same letters before, & after the number.</div></div>

Checked, the lot that is giving me problems is DNL718G this lot I believe was purchased 6/2008, I hope it's not the L&G in **L###G as I have 2k purchased 7/2011 and 2k purchased 7/2012 that also have that in the lot number...

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Leaking Primers

It's not a pressure problem. It's not a brass problem. Bad metalurgy in the cups. Any and all manufactures have had that problem over the years. Don't use that lot of primers. Contact the manufacture and send them back and ask for replacements. I've never know one that wouldn't send you a full case.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Well after leaving 2 more messages with Winchester Ammo, I finaly got a call back today. They wanted 10 primed cases sent back to them on thier dime, so I primed up the brass with the suspect lot of primers, & UPS should be here tomorrow, or Fri to pick them up. I told the guy that I wasn't concerned about the primers being replaced but I was concerned about the multiple pits in my boltface. We'll see what happens now. I'll keep you posted.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well after leaving 2 more messages with Winchester Ammo, I finaly got a call back today. They wanted 10 primed cases sent back to them on thier dime, so I primed up the brass with the suspect lot of primers, & UPS should be here tomorrow, or Fri to pick them up. I told the guy that I wasn't concerned about the primers being replaced but I was concerned about the multiple pits in my boltface. We'll see what happens now. I'll keep you posted.</div></div>

At least they are starting to deal with it.

FWIW, the first thing everyone would and should suspect is 'overpressure'. When that is eliminated by the various facts you've shown then you start to look into the odd things that could make this happen. Stress cracks and over-hardening due to not annealing long enough can create a flame cut or work hardened primer cup.

I had a similar issue once with Federal Premium brass. I fired and had gunpowder come back and hit my face. Upon ejection saw the case had a 1/2" cut straight up the side. It was a case of someone not annealing the brass correctly during drawing of it, that caused a stress crack, and subsequent flame cut. Primers would be no different. Especially in the rush that followed the outages, to get them manufactured.


<span style="color: #000099">Edit:

Another issue here that is hard on brass and primers is headspace. Sometimes the rounds were formed down a little too much, or the rifle chamber was cut just that 'inth' too long. Anyhow, a case that isn't sitting with a little pressure against the bolt face can first get pushed forward by the firing pin. Then, as pressure increases, the primer is pushed way back. The lack of contact between primer and case could lead to any weak spot being cut through.</span>

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Leaking Primers

I tried a newer box this weekend with in the first 20 shots I had two... that means 3 of my 5 1000ct boxes have issues... on to the last 2... figers crossed... these last two were just purchased.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Leaking Primers

Either way you are hosed, something needs changing, brass, primer??
I honestly don't know! But if you keep messing with it, the best thing that could happen is a ruined bolt face, worst, your face.
I would be looking for some other load combo.
Browsing load manuals, your velocity seems way high for a 225gr bullet, try slower powder, like Retumbo?? You are getting .300 Ultra mag velocities.

I've been fighting pressure on a 7mm Saum for over a year, or percieved pressure?? Not sure.
I think it is a rough bolt face, you've never seen a brass buildup on a bolt face like this, ugly.

Sure do hope you get things figured out before the inevitable happens.
Miles

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Leaking Primers

It isnt anything but the primer... has happend on loads I have been using for months and in several calibers... 243, 260 and 3 different 308 rifles. The loads is fine the primers are not.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Re: Leaking Primers

I had the same problem with Federal 210M in the early 1990's.Federal had me send 5 loaded round to them.I also sent them the lot #. They paid to replaced my bolt and sent me 5000 primer to replace the bad lot.Its was chemical contamination of the primer cup.

IMHO I would probably change to a different brand of primers.I have had good luck with Wolf and CCI-BR-2.
Good Luck and I hope Winchester replaces your bolt.
Regards,Mike

 

[ZY100]

Re: Leaking Primers

FWIW, Win sent UPS to pick up a few loaded rounds and a few primed cases. They are supposed to send me $50 to replace the 1K primers and get back to me with an update on what the lab-techs find. Will post the results...

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Well I'm still waiting on winchester toget back with some answers. As for those still claiming I'm running too hot. I'll remind you that this issue started only a few months ago after about 1500rnds of this load, & I'm running some brass with 6 cycles in a 300wm. I already switched powder. I started with Retumbo, & after several hundred rnd I started leaking for no apparent reason. Switched to H-1000, & was still leaking one or 2 out of 50 with this lot of primers. I don't know exactly when I got into this lot of primers, but now that I've switched to a different lot, I have fired about 100 rnds with no problems.

 

[DGD6MM]

Re: Leaking Primers

Dave Tooley is right!
I got some bad ones in '09, WLR, bad cups, they crack up the side.

 

[ZY100]

Re: Leaking Primers

Test results back from Win...stress cracks on the rim of the cup...bad batch. Asked to dispose of the ones I have left and a new case on the way. Don and Art at Win were super nice to deal with.

ZY

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Well, I have an update. After a month, & a half winchester told me today that my primers began testing on the 13th. He said it takes about 3-4 weeks to test, so I should hear from them soon... Also Now that I have switched to a different lot of WLRM primers I have fired over 200 rnds with no issues. And after talking with Montana Rifle about replacing/repairing my boltface, I am pretty pi$$ed off. Since my action is a Win M70 clone they will probably need to set my "new" brl back about 1/2" to cut a new recess for the claw extracter. And obviously rechamber. They will not sell me a new bolt unless they do the work either, so I'm going to see if Winchester will pay to have another brl done to bring my rifle back to original spec. I'm not going to hold my breath.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Leaking Primers

Someone very good with a TIG rig can fill that in then take a clean up cut on the bolt face. Good as new.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone very good with a TIG rig can fill that in then take a clean up cut on the bolt face. Good as new. </div></div>

A pretty easy fix, as Dave indicates.

I suggest using "Crown 220" filler metal. It alloys very well with most steels and stainless (including 4130, 4140CM and 416). It is strong (220ksi) and machines well.

Hope that helps.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

That would be great if I could get a smith around here to do it. My smith was not interested in doing anything that might affect the temper of the bolt.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That would be great if I could get a smith around here to do it. My smith was not interested in doing anything that might affect the temper of the bolt. </div></div>

I don't blame him, because he is probably not exactly a metalurgical engineer. A good, experienced TIG welder, while not exactly an engineer either, will have performed thousands of precision jobs, and understands metal. He'll zap a little extra metal on that boltface so fast the temper/heat treat on your lugs won't be affected at all.

Chad Dixon takes on little side projects like this - give him a ring and I'm sure he'll set you right up, as well as doing the post-weld machining. Because he is a gunsmith as well, he'll understand the nuances of the project, and retouch the boltface so your headspace remains perfect.

ETA: I took a calculated risk with my FN SPR action by having it melonited. The bolt and receiver get cooked at ~1050ºF (well above tempering temperature) for about 30 minutes. It is good to go. Only a very small localized area of your bolt will get anywhere near that hot, and only for a few secods. It'll be ok.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Re: Leaking Primers

At one time I had a guy who could run a puddle up to the edge of the firing pin hole and never get into it. Quite amazing.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Chad Dixon? Is that Chadtrg42 here. Contact info? I asked my smith if he knew of anyone who would do that kind of work, & they said they didn't.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Leaking Primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chad Dixon? Is that Chadtrg42 here. Contact info? I asked my smith if he knew of anyone who would do that kind of work, & they said they didn't. </div></div>

Chad Dixon goes by C.Dixon here on the hide I think. He operates Long Rifles Inc, and is a paying 'hide sponsor. He posts in the gunsmithing section often, and has detailed a number of rifle blunder "fixes" he's done, some of which include welding repair.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Thanks.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Leaking Primers

Well, I finally heard back from winchester about my primers this morning. They told me that they were not able to find any problems with the primers that I sent in. So I asked him to explain the testing. What pressure did they test them to? He couldn't say. Only that they used a "standard pressure" & that didn't show any problem with the sample I sent in. So I gather in other words they tested to approx a starting load for a .308, etc. in a magnum primer. I have since switched primer lots of WLRM primers with the exact same load, & have now fired about 300 rnds with no problems.(along with the several thousand through my last brl, & the thousand+ in this brl before having this problem) They are sending me some cupons to replace the primers I lost, but no repairs to my bolt face. I told him that thier testing was skewed, & I couldn't buy the results, especially with the experience with the other lot of primers. I will be switching brands, & will not use winchester components any longer.
Since I don't have the $$ to get my bolt fixed, I'll just have to live with the scars 'till I can get the money to fix it. But needless to say. I am Pi$$ed!