I was wondering folks opionions on this press for an entry level reloader, or should I just buy the Lee classic cast press.
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Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
You should get a press that will meet your needs.
What are your needs? Size, strength, precision, affordability, convenience.
You should get a press that will meet your needs.
What are your needs? Size, strength, precision, affordability, convenience.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
For a starter kit, Lee is hard to beat. But soon you will want a different scale and brass prep tools. not a big deal but they tend to have the biggest issues.
I like lee products some work perfectly some not so much.
Buy and enjoy you can update as your skills get better.
Howdy
For a starter kit, Lee is hard to beat. But soon you will want a different scale and brass prep tools. not a big deal but they tend to have the biggest issues.
I like lee products some work perfectly some not so much.
Buy and enjoy you can update as your skills get better.
Howdy
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
I too got started reloading on Lee equipment. I use the Challenger to load .308 works great, however for xmas will move up to the co-ax.
I also have the Lee Classic Turret press works great for pistol ammo use it exclusively for that.
If you get the Classic kit the scale is accurate however is very funky, and difficult to read.
While Lee dies are decent for the money, for rifle I have moved up to Forster Benchrest Dies. I still use the Lee collet die for rifle.
All in all Lee got me up and running quickly, can't speak enough for that, great stuff for the money.....however if you stick to reloading you will out grow Lee stuff......
I too got started reloading on Lee equipment. I use the Challenger to load .308 works great, however for xmas will move up to the co-ax.
I also have the Lee Classic Turret press works great for pistol ammo use it exclusively for that.
If you get the Classic kit the scale is accurate however is very funky, and difficult to read.
While Lee dies are decent for the money, for rifle I have moved up to Forster Benchrest Dies. I still use the Lee collet die for rifle.
All in all Lee got me up and running quickly, can't speak enough for that, great stuff for the money.....however if you stick to reloading you will out grow Lee stuff......
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
"I was wondering folks opionions on this press for an entry level reloader, or should I just buy the Lee classic cast press."
It's a competent press. BUT...it's about the same cost without being nearly the same strength of press the Classic Cast is.
Any "quick-change" die bushing is a pointless gimmic. Screw om does can easily be exchanged by hand in less than 20 seconds so what does cutting it to perhaps 6-8 seconds buy you?
Much to much is made over presses. ALL of them will do quite well. The much more expensive presses are nice, I suppose, but I've NEVER seen anyone even try to document that better ammo can, by that fact, be made on an expensive press vs. a less expensive press assuming the same dies and loader skill!
Dies come in two grades. First place, especially for seaters, goes to Redding and Forster, withour without the micrometer head really doesn't matter. All others are tied for second place. But not by a lot.
Actually "common" dies and presses load very well if the loader is skilled. If he isn't, it won't much matter what tools he uses. It takes a LOONG time and lots of experimenting to obtain the knowledge of how to use the slightly better tools effectively!
"I was wondering folks opionions on this press for an entry level reloader, or should I just buy the Lee classic cast press."
It's a competent press. BUT...it's about the same cost without being nearly the same strength of press the Classic Cast is.
Any "quick-change" die bushing is a pointless gimmic. Screw om does can easily be exchanged by hand in less than 20 seconds so what does cutting it to perhaps 6-8 seconds buy you?
Much to much is made over presses. ALL of them will do quite well. The much more expensive presses are nice, I suppose, but I've NEVER seen anyone even try to document that better ammo can, by that fact, be made on an expensive press vs. a less expensive press assuming the same dies and loader skill!
Dies come in two grades. First place, especially for seaters, goes to Redding and Forster, withour without the micrometer head really doesn't matter. All others are tied for second place. But not by a lot.
Actually "common" dies and presses load very well if the loader is skilled. If he isn't, it won't much matter what tools he uses. It takes a LOONG time and lots of experimenting to obtain the knowledge of how to use the slightly better tools effectively!
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but I've NEVER seen anyone even try to document that better ammo can, by that fact, be made on an expensive press vs. a less expensive press assuming the same dies and loader skill!</div></div>
The press with the truest threads and ram alignment will win.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but I've NEVER seen anyone even try to document that better ammo can, by that fact, be made on an expensive press vs. a less expensive press assuming the same dies and loader skill!</div></div>
The press with the truest threads and ram alignment will win.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
Thanks everyone, I would like to get the Forster Co-ax, but its a little out of my price range right now. I think I am just going to go with the classic cast and buy forster or a similar quality die for it.
Marty
Thanks everyone, I would like to get the Forster Co-ax, but its a little out of my price range right now. I think I am just going to go with the classic cast and buy forster or a similar quality die for it.
Marty
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
Fuzz- someone did a back to back to back comparison of a Dillon 650 vs. the Hornady LnL AP vs. the Lee progressive.
The results were that the Dillon was not worth 3x's the price of the Lee and the Hornady (neglecting the 1k free bullets it comes with) is easily worth the 2x's jump in price over the Lee.
It wins on a number of points, but as far as loading "better quality" ammo, the Lee progressive had about 10x's the runout that the other 2 did for a 223. The Hornady was between .0005 and .0015" of runout on the loaded round, the Lee was .010-.015 the runout.
I will try to find the link quickly, but yes, it's been done for those 3 progressives.
http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf
Fuzz- someone did a back to back to back comparison of a Dillon 650 vs. the Hornady LnL AP vs. the Lee progressive.
The results were that the Dillon was not worth 3x's the price of the Lee and the Hornady (neglecting the 1k free bullets it comes with) is easily worth the 2x's jump in price over the Lee.
It wins on a number of points, but as far as loading "better quality" ammo, the Lee progressive had about 10x's the runout that the other 2 did for a 223. The Hornady was between .0005 and .0015" of runout on the loaded round, the Lee was .010-.015 the runout.
I will try to find the link quickly, but yes, it's been done for those 3 progressives.
http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
Bohem, I won't dispute your data but I will guess that the info you quote was taken from a single example of each press? And it's unlikely they all used the same dies AND cases to run the tests? If I'm correct, that makes the reports interesting but surely not statistically valid from an engineering point of view.
Bohem, I won't dispute your data but I will guess that the info you quote was taken from a single example of each press? And it's unlikely they all used the same dies AND cases to run the tests? If I'm correct, that makes the reports interesting but surely not statistically valid from an engineering point of view.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The press with the truest threads and ram alignment will win.
</div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The press with the truest threads and ram alignment will win.
</div></div>
+1
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to get the Forster Co-ax, but it's a little out of my price range right now. I think I am just going to go with the classic cast and buy Forster or a similar quality die for it. </div></div>
Redding also makes top quality presses, and their O-frames are a lot less expensive than the Co-Ax.
Be aware that Redding's standard seater die is not on par with their micrometer die, nor with either of Forster's seaters. The difference is the alignment sleeve that is not in the lesser designs and is beneficial to loading straight ammo. If you don't need a micrometer seater, Forster is the way to go.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to get the Forster Co-ax, but it's a little out of my price range right now. I think I am just going to go with the classic cast and buy Forster or a similar quality die for it. </div></div>
Redding also makes top quality presses, and their O-frames are a lot less expensive than the Co-Ax.
Be aware that Redding's standard seater die is not on par with their micrometer die, nor with either of Forster's seaters. The difference is the alignment sleeve that is not in the lesser designs and is beneficial to loading straight ammo. If you don't need a micrometer seater, Forster is the way to go.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem, I won't dispute your data but I will guess that the info you quote was taken from a single example of each press? And it's unlikely they all used the same dies AND cases to run the tests? If I'm correct, that makes the reports interesting but surely not statistically valid from an engineering point of view.
</div></div>
Did you read the article I posted? He uses the same dies between the presses, the cases are not identical but came all came from the guy's previously reloaded stock. That means that the cases went through his dies and other press previously before the test. The presses were all new in the box when he did the test and the brass is as close to being the same as you'd get without buying new brass for each test and splitting up a lot across the 3 presses.
Yes, it's a single example of the press for each, but thus far, I've never been able to find a company or individual that wants to order 100 of each press and set them up for a true study of what comes off the assembly lines.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem, I won't dispute your data but I will guess that the info you quote was taken from a single example of each press? And it's unlikely they all used the same dies AND cases to run the tests? If I'm correct, that makes the reports interesting but surely not statistically valid from an engineering point of view.
</div></div>
Did you read the article I posted? He uses the same dies between the presses, the cases are not identical but came all came from the guy's previously reloaded stock. That means that the cases went through his dies and other press previously before the test. The presses were all new in the box when he did the test and the brass is as close to being the same as you'd get without buying new brass for each test and splitting up a lot across the 3 presses.
Yes, it's a single example of the press for each, but thus far, I've never been able to find a company or individual that wants to order 100 of each press and set them up for a true study of what comes off the assembly lines.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
IMHO, when you get into an "O" press there is really very little difference in the bunch. The main difference is in the "nice to have's". So I look at a couple of things to make my decisions.
- Cast steel or Cast Aluminum? 6 of one, half dozen of the other with today's metallurgy.
- Size of the opening. Bigger is better if you will be loading long(er) cartridges or have a sleeve in your seater die.
- Where do the primers go? Amazingly there are only a couple of presses on the market that have a provision to dump the spent primers consistently. The Lee Classic Cast and the Redding Big Boss II have drop tubes that will send the primes straight out the bottom of the press into a garbage can you can mount under the press. All others have some sort of bucket or tray mounted on the press base. In other words you'll be picking up spent primers from the floor / bench or will have something that gets in your way while loading.
- 1 1/4" - 12 TPI opening. Since I have discovered the Hornady Lock - n - Load system this is an absolute MUST.
- General ergonomics: What is the shape of the handle and where is it located? Is it adjustable? Is the press opening angled for ease of access.
On kits in general: Most kits have substandard components that will be replaced in short order. The question you need to ask yourself is how much of the kit will be replaced and how much will it cost to do so. Most kits also do not some with everything you need to reload regardless of what the box says.
You may find this post helpful.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...96660#Post96660
Cheers,
Doc
IMHO, when you get into an "O" press there is really very little difference in the bunch. The main difference is in the "nice to have's". So I look at a couple of things to make my decisions.
- Cast steel or Cast Aluminum? 6 of one, half dozen of the other with today's metallurgy.
- Size of the opening. Bigger is better if you will be loading long(er) cartridges or have a sleeve in your seater die.
- Where do the primers go? Amazingly there are only a couple of presses on the market that have a provision to dump the spent primers consistently. The Lee Classic Cast and the Redding Big Boss II have drop tubes that will send the primes straight out the bottom of the press into a garbage can you can mount under the press. All others have some sort of bucket or tray mounted on the press base. In other words you'll be picking up spent primers from the floor / bench or will have something that gets in your way while loading.
- 1 1/4" - 12 TPI opening. Since I have discovered the Hornady Lock - n - Load system this is an absolute MUST.
- General ergonomics: What is the shape of the handle and where is it located? Is it adjustable? Is the press opening angled for ease of access.
On kits in general: Most kits have substandard components that will be replaced in short order. The question you need to ask yourself is how much of the kit will be replaced and how much will it cost to do so. Most kits also do not some with everything you need to reload regardless of what the box says.
You may find this post helpful.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...96660#Post96660
Cheers,
Doc
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
"Did you read the article I posted? He uses the same dies between the presses, the cases are not identical..."
Certainly I read it, that's why I referenced his findings. I missed that he had used the same dies. But, unless he also used the same cases he still missed making his tests as even as possible.
MOST of the run-out I get comes from a combonation of the size die/expander plug AND the case lot, not just the dies or, especially, the press.
I've NEVER found a press to have any detectable influence on my own run-out. BUT my own tests were limited to (six) single stage presses. The dies were as carefully set up as possible for each press and the same cases/bullets were used in each twenty round test series. I was unable to prove that my favorite press does any better than other much less expensive presses! In fact, I found no significant differencies due to the press at all. Therefore I find it very hard to believe any press can, of itself, produce run-out in the range of .010", that's quite massive and more suggestive of bad cases or poor die set up.
No matter the difficulty of obtaining a hundred presses or even a more reasonable sample of four or six, a single example of anything "proves" only that THAT unit did such and so, for THAT user. That fact was the motivation to my questions. Anyone can take what they will from his article but his findings are statistically meaningless. ??
Doc, (just above) has some very sound suggestions for anyone to consider. I have no use for any "quick change" bushings but that's a personal thing, not a judgement against them.
"Did you read the article I posted? He uses the same dies between the presses, the cases are not identical..."
Certainly I read it, that's why I referenced his findings. I missed that he had used the same dies. But, unless he also used the same cases he still missed making his tests as even as possible.
MOST of the run-out I get comes from a combonation of the size die/expander plug AND the case lot, not just the dies or, especially, the press.
I've NEVER found a press to have any detectable influence on my own run-out. BUT my own tests were limited to (six) single stage presses. The dies were as carefully set up as possible for each press and the same cases/bullets were used in each twenty round test series. I was unable to prove that my favorite press does any better than other much less expensive presses! In fact, I found no significant differencies due to the press at all. Therefore I find it very hard to believe any press can, of itself, produce run-out in the range of .010", that's quite massive and more suggestive of bad cases or poor die set up.
No matter the difficulty of obtaining a hundred presses or even a more reasonable sample of four or six, a single example of anything "proves" only that THAT unit did such and so, for THAT user. That fact was the motivation to my questions. Anyone can take what they will from his article but his findings are statistically meaningless. ??
Doc, (just above) has some very sound suggestions for anyone to consider. I have no use for any "quick change" bushings but that's a personal thing, not a judgement against them.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
Fuzzball,
Care to share the specifics of your test? Press models, dies, cartridges, measurements, instruments, statistical data supporting your conclusions, etc.?
Andy
Fuzzball,
Care to share the specifics of your test? Press models, dies, cartridges, measurements, instruments, statistical data supporting your conclusions, etc.?
Andy
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
I like my breech lock. I load a bunch of cartridges on a regular basis (223, 308, 6.5x47, 260, 6br, 270, 204) and it's really nice to be able to quickly swap out dies. I wish the primer mechanism were on the left side of the press since I use my right arm on the lever.
I like my breech lock. I load a bunch of cartridges on a regular basis (223, 308, 6.5x47, 260, 6br, 270, 204) and it's really nice to be able to quickly swap out dies. I wish the primer mechanism were on the left side of the press since I use my right arm on the lever.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
I have one and like it. As someone else said, if you buy the kit, be ready to replace the scale and trimmer right away. They drove me nuts.
That being said, I use my rockchucker for seating as I was getting inconsistencies with the quick change system.
I have one and like it. As someone else said, if you buy the kit, be ready to replace the scale and trimmer right away. They drove me nuts.
That being said, I use my rockchucker for seating as I was getting inconsistencies with the quick change system.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
"Fuzzball, Care to share the specifics of your test?"
Jake, thanks but no. For the same reasons I question the vailidity of the referenced tests, such a limited base is statistically meaningless. To anyone but me and MY presses anyway! And, really, as I mentioned, I didn't find any significant differences in the run-out anyway.
Well, okay, to help make my point and without mentioning the specifics of run-out levels, I actually tested two Lymans (one a well worn "Spar-T" turret), four Lees (two were the little "Reloader" types, one was a "Hand Press"), my then new, tight Rockchucker II and a thirty year old, very loose Herter's 3 that belonged to a now dead buddy. My test series was done maybe 15 years ago when I first got my concentricity gage and was going crazy with it. (Don't know if I could even find a record of it now!)
All the presses loaded the same twenty cases with the same (inertia pulled) bullets pushed back into the same cases, done with the same set of common type/brand of dies as precisely set up as I could match them to a saved dummy round from the first series.
Results? The average of each set of run-outs was not identical but it was VERY close. Not what I expected but that's what I found.
That's why I find it so hard to understand how a press could produce up to .010-.011" run-out, all by itself.
"Fuzzball, Care to share the specifics of your test?"
Jake, thanks but no. For the same reasons I question the vailidity of the referenced tests, such a limited base is statistically meaningless. To anyone but me and MY presses anyway! And, really, as I mentioned, I didn't find any significant differences in the run-out anyway.
Well, okay, to help make my point and without mentioning the specifics of run-out levels, I actually tested two Lymans (one a well worn "Spar-T" turret), four Lees (two were the little "Reloader" types, one was a "Hand Press"), my then new, tight Rockchucker II and a thirty year old, very loose Herter's 3 that belonged to a now dead buddy. My test series was done maybe 15 years ago when I first got my concentricity gage and was going crazy with it. (Don't know if I could even find a record of it now!)
All the presses loaded the same twenty cases with the same (inertia pulled) bullets pushed back into the same cases, done with the same set of common type/brand of dies as precisely set up as I could match them to a saved dummy round from the first series.
Results? The average of each set of run-outs was not identical but it was VERY close. Not what I expected but that's what I found.
That's why I find it so hard to understand how a press could produce up to .010-.011" run-out, all by itself.
Re: Lee challenger breech lock press opinions
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why I find it so hard to understand how a press could produce up to .010-.011" run-out, all by itself.</div></div>
Poor ram alignment; die threads not true. Never witnessed 0.010", but I did see 0.006" attributed to a press...once.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why I find it so hard to understand how a press could produce up to .010-.011" run-out, all by itself.</div></div>
Poor ram alignment; die threads not true. Never witnessed 0.010", but I did see 0.006" attributed to a press...once.
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