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Advanced Marksmanship Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

Agreed that the terrain features cause the majority of 'weird' wind effects in the vertical. Matches my limited experience. I think straight wind can have some minor effect - but it is miniscule in comparison to other shooter-related factors in play. It's a bit like the spin drift argument...
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

i chrono'd federal Gold medeal match 168gr sierra and it was within 4fps out of 3 shots starting with a cold bore... screw hand loading.. i agree it is a distraction to keep fucking with loads when you should be fucking with your shooting skills.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i chrono'd federal Gold medeal match 168gr sierra and it was within 4fps out of 3 shots starting with a cold bore... screw hand loading.. i agree it is a distraction to keep fucking with loads when you should be fucking with your shooting skills.</div></div>

Great! Way to spill the beans. Words out.

(You have to have stellar shooting skillz to know the rifle or ammo could be better. You have to have stellar shooting skills to work up a load.Who makes claims of Chrono numbers on three shots? Do you brag about two shot groups as well? Why in the world are you shooting 168's? Drank the .308 Kool-aid too I see. Watch some more gun shows on TV and get back to us.)
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i chrono'd federal Gold medeal match 168gr sierra and it was within 4fps out of 3 shots starting with a cold bore... screw hand loading.. i agree it is a distraction to keep fucking with loads when you should be fucking with your shooting skills.</div></div>

Great! Way to spill the beans. Words out.

(You have to have stellar shooting skillz to know the rifle or ammo could be better. You have to have stellar shooting skills to work up a load.Who makes claims of Chrono numbers on three shots? Do you brag about two shot groups as well? Why in the world are you shooting 168's? Drank the .308 Kool-aid too I see. Watch some more gun shows on TV and get back to us.) </div></div>


what... i dont know about you but i dont have the will, time, or money to shoot hundreds of rounds through a chronograph to impress internet people. if you dont like my input then ignore it. its merely me saying that i think factory match ammo can take me 98% of the way that reloading can. i obviously struck a nerve with you because you became very rude and dissresepectful and i would imagine youd do the same in real life unless your just a panzy who takes out his anger for being a little panzy on the internet. frankly i dont care either way. i aspire to be as stellar a shooter as you one day. you must spend your range time on a bench.

i can ring the steel at 800 yards with 168's and thats all i want to do. have fun spending your friday nights weighing powder... lol

its posts like this that make me wish i would have purchased that program to make it possible to reach through the moniter and slap a dude. ive been kicking myself ever since.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i chrono'd federal Gold medeal match 168gr sierra and it was within 4fps out of 3 shots starting with a cold bore... screw hand loading.. i agree it is a distraction to keep fucking with loads when you should be fucking with your shooting skills.</div></div>

Great! Way to spill the beans. Words out.

(You have to have stellar shooting skillz to know the rifle or ammo could be better. You have to have stellar shooting skills to work up a load.Who makes claims of Chrono numbers on three shots? Do you brag about two shot groups as well? Why in the world are you shooting 168's? Drank the .308 Kool-aid too I see. Watch some more gun shows on TV and get back to us.)</div></div>

For a "trainer" or at least someone looking to train, you have a dim view on arguably the best "training" round available... inexpensive, long barrel life, good accuracy, not to mention, great for learning the values of the conditions that move the strike of the round.

I can tell you, this month we chronographed a lot of military weapons, using things like the new Mk316, Mk248 Mod 1, etc... and more than 3 rounds for each shooter, and with the 300WM, 220gr load the average SD was 8fps, the best was 4fps so it mirrors many things seen by others with factory ammo. Especially lately... better bullets, and powders for sure.

I have read, seen, experienced, people who used "load development" on why they couldn't shoot a match, bothered to train, you name it, yet I have, in field conditions seen factory ammo beat handloads, a great example, ASC with their "dirty group" more than 1 year I was able to ace the dirty group, always with factory ammo...

I shot this with factory ammo, the winning group:
ASC_3_5.jpg


Now let's put this in perspective with the other shooters... this is more of the board, I am #7

lowlightgroup1.jpg


I have one image from another year, it was shot on paper at 600 yards, field conditions, I, with factory ammo won again shooting a 3" group in a 12MPH wind... so there must be something to this "kool aid" you speak of.

Granted I will tell you I don't advocate 168gr ammo, but will contend you can shoot great groups with it inside 600 yards, people like Tac Ops prove it with every rifle, managing .25 minute groups with factory flair.

So, I would be careful about shooting down factory ammo, because you never know who will show up and beat you with it. It's more the indian than the bow and conditions dictate, just because your handloads do one thing, doesn't mean you can do it across the board. Ask the Top 5 shooters at the SHC who beat a field of wind cheaters with 168gr Federal... all those 260s, and 243s, well behind them... if your thinking held true, any person shooting a ballistically better bullet could not be beat by a factory 308, the math demands it cannot happen. At least that is my read on your words.

Reloading is fine, but relying on it for success will not get you to the finish ahead of the guy who is out shooting every week, and by shooting I mean shooting to win, not to "develop" a load before he develops himself.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I have no problem with the .308 in and of itself. What I get sick of maybe is localized but prolly not. Sure, In a UTR (Universal test receiver, removes ALL human error, normally shot in an indoor tube, taking out ALL wind) a .308 is an inherently phenomenally accurate round. FACT. Got no problem with that.

What kills me is the urban legend junk I get all the time. Ask 100 "long range shooters" what -the- cartridge and -the- load is for the ultimate long range shooting and 90 of them will say .308 w/ 168's. This same 90 have never heard of a .260 or a .338LM. Go on to ask them why not a ______ cartridge and their answer & reasoning is because it's <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> a .308.

If you pick a .308 over whatever else for reasons you have researched and studied out, fine. But what drives me nuts is the masses that, when, for example if you were to pose you pose the question: "The Canadians set a new long range snipe record, guess what cartridge it was set with?": would answer "We'll it would have <span style="font-weight: bold">HAD</span> to have been a .308, cause EVERYBODY knows thats the baddest mo-fro round God himself ever desighned." And the same answer that it would have HAD to be a 168SMK.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">THAT</span></span> is the ".308 kool-aid" I speak of. I mean announce to the same 90 your having a 1500 yard fun shoot and they get on the net and start looking for the best deal on 168 ammo.

Okay, perhaps only 40 of that 90 log onto this board, but perhaps this being "my shooting discussion hang out" I vent this frustration here and the common post passerby does not know where I'm coming from and thinks I'm a crazy that credits a .308WIn to be less accurate that buckshot from a scatter gun shot @ range.

No, a .308 is a wonderfully accurate round. It's just not a 62,buzillion meter capable round and it's a full time job to untrian folks who want training but show up knowing everything. And a 168 neuters the .308 @ long range compared to the better bullet choices out there.

I went/go through the same thing is the pistol world regarding 9mm Parabellum.
No wonder my hair line is receding.

I got no personal problem with the .308. I got problems with the ignorant embellishment of the round/ammo that I'm constantly running into.

I personally choose to learn wind and train with a .223 for the similar wind hold needs. Like a .308 it's hard to get a .223 to shoot bad. I mean they both just shoot. I train with a .223 because it's cheaper every time I pull the trigger, but gives about the same wind education.

Hand loading vs. commercial ammo.
I never said commercial ammo could not or does not shoot GOOD. It can. In fact I was talking to my friend J. Ruiz @ Predator custom the other day. He had a customer that wanted a .308 rifle built to shoot Hornady TAP ammo exclusively. He built it and showed me a 5 shot group fired with said rifle/ammo that was incredible. Like you would have to see it to believe it incredible.

But with commercial ammo, your stuck. It works, or it doesn't. I don't like anything boxing me into a corner. That guy that had Ruiz/Predator Custom do the build will have a great shooting rifle until the throat wears sufficiently to no longer shoot the round as well. Then it's live with less accuracy, or have the barrel set-back, or a new barrel all together. If he were a hand loader he could with a minor change in a die setting set the bullet closer to good riflings while in the chamber and presto, his accuracy is back the hand loader is not "stuck," ever.

LL says:
"""Granted I will tell you I don't advocate 168gr ammo, but will contend you can shoot great groups with it inside 600 yards,""

Absolutly, I agree. 168's & .308's are great medicine at a realistic range for the combo. We are coming from the same place with the same beliefs. Perhaps because your institution is "high rent" comparatively, you get more serious and less internet commando clientele. I'm personally burned out on the urban legend side of .308/168 & 9mm that I have to speak to so often almost every single time.

(Sorry for the poor grammer/structure of the note. I have to run out and get to work.)

<span style="color: #FF9966"> Kent said ""
you became very rude and dissresepectful ""

Despite your offer to hit me<span style="text-decoration: underline"> I make public apology to you.</span> I kinda did come off harsh. Sorry. It was a quick post with not a lot of thought after several 13hr days of hard manual labor </span>

Thank God that as a Christian though I mess up tons, I'm forgiven.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no problem with the .308 in and of itself. What I get sick of maybe is localized but prolly not. Sure, In a UTR (Universal test receiver, removes ALL human error, normally shot in an indoor tube, taking out ALL wind) a .308 is an inherently phenomenally accurate round. FACT. Got no problem with that.

What kills me is the urban legend junk I get all the time. Ask 100 "long range shooters" what -the- cartridge and -the- load is for the ultimate long range shooting and 90 of them will say .308 w/ 168's. This same 90 have never heard of a .260 or a .338LM. Go on to ask them why not a ______ cartridge and their answer & reasoning is because it's <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> a .308.

If you pick a .308 over whatever else for reasons you have researched and studied out, fine. But what drives me nuts is the masses that, when, for example if you were to pose you pose the question: "The Canadians set a new long range snipe record, guess what cartridge it was set with?": would answer "We'll it would have <span style="font-weight: bold">HAD</span> to have been a .308, cause EVERYBODY knows thats the baddest mo-fro round God himself ever desighned." And the same answer that it would have HAD to be a 168SMK.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">THAT</span></span> is the ".308 kool-aid" I speak of. I mean announce to the same 90 your having a 1500 yard fun shoot and they get on the net and start looking for the best deal on 168 ammo.

Okay, perhaps only 40 of that 90 log onto this board, but perhaps this being "my shooting discussion hang out" I vent this frustration here and the common post passerby does not know where I'm coming from and thinks I'm a crazy that credits a .308WIn to be less accurate that buckshot from a scatter gun shot @ range.

No, a .308 is a wonderfully accurate round. It's just not a 62,buzillion meter capable round and it's a full time job to untrian folks who want training but show up knowing everything. And a 168 neuters the .308 @ long range compared to the better bullet choices out there.

I went/go through the same thing is the pistol world regarding 9mm Parabellum.
No wonder my hair line is receding.

I got no personal problem with the .308. I got problems with the ignorant embellishment of the round/ammo that I'm constantly running into.

I personally choose to learn wind and train with a .223 for the similar wind hold needs. Like a .308 it's hard to get a .223 to shoot bad. I mean they both just shoot. I train with a .223 because it's cheaper every time I pull the trigger, but gives about the same wind education.

Hand loading vs. commercial ammo.
I never said commercial ammo could not or does not shoot GOOD. It can. In fact I was talking to my friend J. Ruiz @ Predator custom the other day. He had a customer that wanted a .308 rifle built to shoot Hornady TAP ammo exclusively. He built it and showed me a 5 shot group fired with said rifle/ammo that was incredible. Like you would have to see it to believe it incredible.

But with commercial ammo, your stuck. It works, or it doesn't. I don't like anything boxing me into a corner. That guy that had Ruiz/Predator Custom do the build will have a great shooting rifle until the throat wears sufficiently to no longer shoot the round as well. Then it's live with less accuracy, or have the barrel set-back, or a new barrel all together. If he were a hand loader he could with a minor change in a die setting set the bullet closer to good riflings while in the chamber and presto, his accuracy is back the hand loader is not "stuck," ever.

LL says:
"""Granted I will tell you I don't advocate 168gr ammo, but will contend you can shoot great groups with it inside 600 yards,""

Absolutly, I agree. 168's & .308's are great medicine at a realistic range for the combo. We are coming from the same place with the same beliefs. Perhaps because your institution is "high rent" comparatively, you get more serious and less internet commando clientele. I'm personally burned out on the urban legend side of .308/168 & 9mm that I have to speak to so often almost every single time.

(Sorry for the poor grammer/structure of the note. I have to run out and get to work.)

<span style="color: #FF9966"> Kent said ""
you became very rude and dissresepectful ""

Despite your offer to hit me<span style="text-decoration: underline"> I make public apology to you.</span> I kinda did come off harsh. Sorry. It was a quick post with not a lot of thought after several 13hr days of hard manual labor </span>

Thank God that as a Christian though I mess up tons, I'm forgiven.
</div></div>

I felt i gave an equally deserving response given the feeling of being attacked.

im relatively new to long range shooting and am far from highly knowledgable on the subject. my choice for shooting 168 federals is price and availability in a factory load and pretty damn good accuracy in my rifle. if i made more money id probably step it up to a better suited factory load. but as i said ive got good results to 800 yards for my purpose so im perfectly content shooting federal 168smk's for now.

I appreciate your response. i didnt expect it at all. your a stand up guy. i have no hard feelings towards you Tresmon.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

I don't see us as thinking the same, in all that you wrote you didn't say anything but you hate the 168gr bullet because people are stupid and ignorant and don't do anything but follow the advice of people who don't know anything.

Just like the 9mm debate.

Well I like the 9mm for a lot reasons and for even more individuals, because it suits their needs more. First off it is all about shot placement and proper training dictates you shoot until the threat is down. For most if that means firing 5 shots instead of 2, so be it. What does that mean, .5 seconds more? Regardless there are a lot of reasons to advocate a smaller caliber to people but we won't get into that.

You rant on the 168gr misses the mark on so many ways,

First off it has been around for a very long time. It is used more by L/E than anything else, and I am not suggesting they know something only that that use it a lot. Most local gun shops stock it, and for people who are shooting inside 200 yards like most of America, there is no reason to search out something else.

As far as commercial ammo being hit or miss, not my experience of late. If you buy good commercial match loads you get good results, the hit or miss is the stepping down to hunting ammo or surplus machine gun ammo. That is hit or miss. Federal, Hornady, Cor Bon, is not. Maybe you haven't noticed a lot people shoot this stuff in matches and do well. Hand loads are not the flavor across the board. In fact we see more problems with hand loads than with factory.

Now, educating people, which I think you failed to do in your rant, that is a different thing than putting something down.

To say, the max effective range under most conditions is 800 yards, tells someone something. To say the ballistic coefficient is not very good so the ability to buck the wind past 600 yards tells someone something. To point out why the choice is bad, say, shooting beyond 800 yards, helps people.

You didnt do any of that.

Many people don't reload, if they have an interest in it, then educating them on the benefits of a 260 is great, but it really only great for people who reload it. Now, that is not to say someone cannot be educated to try a 6.5 Creedmoor, which has inexpensive match bullets from the factory.

Now, while I agree, the 338LM is awesome, it's not for most people. Magnums, induce a whole new set of problems from a training and shooting standpoint, but come on, it's really expensive, heavy recoiling, etc.

I think you have a long way to go understanding your potential client and how to explain to them the pros and cons of their bullet choice, I feel you failed to do that in your rant. Seemed like an emotional attack, like the 9mm vs debate.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)



I still feel we are of the same school of thought: I don't think you'd suggest a .308. Is the exclusive caliber of choice for a 2300 meter shot (etc.) nor do I think you'd suggest a 9mm as the best medicine to stop a charging white rhino.
(Etc.)
That's my point in a nutshell. But I don't care anymore to explain or even ever try to educate people that subscribe to such ignorant urban legandary magical powers of the two rounds.

Regards
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

As an instructor I see a short career in your future... explaining the merits and educating of the people are what you're hired to do. Good luck not educating here.

Also I don't see anyone but you talking about "magical" properties of anything, you're overlaying that yourself.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)


I'm happy to have any students that actually want to learn, and for them I correct the guy that makes ridiculous claims about "hollywood cartridges" in class in fornt of them to keep the eduction of paying students in truth, accurate & factual. All the sayings about come an empty vessel blah blah. No problem.

Otherwise, this has gotten so far off topic from the OP it may just be a new record. Multiple People have expressed appreciation for the OP, above, time & time agian.
(LL:) It's your playground but I think it for the good of the whole group if you or a mod delete all here that's not directly associated with wind call verbage.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Terrain features cause the problem, not straight wind...

I have seen it at Thunder Ranch at the end of the bullet's flight, especially with things like a 308 or 223 which are not moving very fast, winds bouncing off terrain features carry the bullet up. But this is not to be confused with a straight horizontal wind driving the strike up due to the bullet rotation on the air. At Thunder Ranch, Clint, Jacob and I were shooting his rifle the "Hammer" to about 1200+ Plus yards across the valley to an opposite hill. The bullet was randomly impacting 10ft over the target at times. Well a light snow started and the winds where blowing up the side of the hills carrying the bullet, this can be seen in the snow. We were shooting 168gr bullets out of a 20" rifle over 1200 yards away.

Sacramento Valley Range has a Terrain feature around 500 yards give or take, that is in the line of the wind which has a slope on the up wind side which, Jumps the wind across the range giving you a vertical component at the right movement. It's not rocket science, it wind hitting something and bouncing off.

Cause and effect, Terrain features diverting the wind giving it a vertical element.

Same with the wash at RO, it is in the path of the prevailing wind, which lifts the wind up in a ramping fashion around the 900 yard line. Which at sea level, if you are shooting a 168gr bullet will cause a vertical because the bullet is going Transonic a lot of the time.

Straight winds unaffected by Terrain are not causing it, terrain, absolutely can cause it, and during our class at Sac Valley I demonstrated this in detail.

It's not Voodoo, wind is water, when moved, and funneled and squeezed between berms and other terrain feature, even small ones, it increases the velocity, like rapids on a river. Wind is water...

When a person is at the range and flags are present from 200 to 1000 yards and one flag is going the wrong way, the Prevailing winds are not clashing, the wind is bouncing off something like a berm and moving locally, you don't have a prevailing wind out of the East with a narrow spike coming from the West, the air doesn't flow that way. You have a local disturbance caused by something like berm, hill, sand dune, wash, etc...

And I hate to say, I think the point was missed earlier, when I say we saw 40" in vertical at 700 yards, that was not due to MV variations, but shooter variations. Not Breaking the Shot at the bottom of the breathing cycle, but at different points, caused this vertical -- the SHOOTER, not the MV, the Shooter. Breaking the shot incorrectly can cause a person to hit above an E Type one shot and below the target on another without changing a thing but where and how they executed the shot.

Science for sure, but not the science of the bullet climbing the wall of air it is falling through.
</div></div>

This is worth copying and putting in your data book. Read this again in your spare time. Pay attention to it. This is worth way more than you know. Frank mentions snow and the SEE, and we have seen the same thing in mountains with low cloud cover, and in other places when there is a lot of smoke out there.
This may not be about verbiage on wind calls, but this post by Frank is very important to those who may not understand what they have been seeing. To me, this from Frank is worth the whole 3 pages of post here. Just from this dumbass country boy opinion.

And not to pick the scab on the sore, I'll take all the factory match 308 ammo I can get, leave the brass in the grass, and fuck reloading, its the shooting time that matters most. (308 here guys, not so on the 375 Cheytac, I will hunt them lost brass hard.)

Wind call for me? (working off a known scope setting.)
Spotter up? Spotter up.
Shooter up? Shooter up.
Hold.
Hold.
Hold 3 mils left.
Shooter up, 3 mils left.
Send it.
Hit.

Or:
Miss, hold 1.5 mils left and .5 low, send it.
Shit, Bang...
Miss. WTF did you do?
DamnifIknow.
Well, the target is GONE dumbass.
Screw you too...

And so it goes around here.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just from this dumbass country boy opinion.</div></div>

If you are a "dumbass country boy", I'm not sure what that makes me. Probably a mushroom in a cow pie.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

JH-
as a poor country boy to an apparently well heeled one, if its no bother, I wouldnt mind some of that brass you cast aside.
wink.gif


Reloading is what helps in keeping it affordable for me.

Commonality of verbage sounds good but one hangup I see is there would have to be a commonality of technique as well.

Some teams dail a base wind on and then favor or hold.

Some use mil.

Some a point of aim like say the beltline, left shoulder, right ear.

I've watched teams that must have used some ESP and others sound like 19th century artillery crews.

If I am the junior man on the team- the spotter goes through his commands and I nod with a three bags full attitude. If in some altered universe I am senior then I run through my series and away we go.

A wise man or wiseass once said it aint wrong if it works, just not what you would have done.

JH, can you hook a poor boy up????
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

took the time and read the whole post. I printed the charts and values and they will be utilized thanks for the corrections and great read
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i chrono'd federal Gold medeal match 168gr sierra and it was within 4fps out of 3 shots starting with a cold bore... screw hand loading.. i agree it is a distraction to keep fucking with loads when you should be fucking with your shooting skills.</div></div>

Great! Way to spill the beans. Words out.

(You have to have stellar shooting skillz to know the rifle or ammo could be better. You have to have stellar shooting skills to work up a load.Who makes claims of Chrono numbers on three shots? Do you brag about two shot groups as well? Why in the world are you shooting 168's? Drank the .308 Kool-aid too I see. Watch some more gun shows on TV and get back to us.)</div></div>

I see you reside in a geographic area which would allow shooting at Oak Ridge. Have you ever participated in any of their 600 or 1000 yard tournaments? I think I made HM there with, incidently, an iron sight .308. I did not handload at that time, and did not own a chronograph, although both would have been wise. Come to think of it, I didn't know anything about good shooting then. At any rate, as I recall, I reached my classification, over time, shooting Mexican Match, M118LR, M118NM, M852 and some GMM. I never shot the 168's at 1000, but preferred em at 600. Not winning anything later with the .308 at 1000 yards at the HM level, I started taking a 6.5/284 to the firing line and began to win again, but it was not as much fun for me, too much like taking a laser to the firing line, results were expected. What I'm getting at here is folks who get to the finish line get there using all manner of resources. Some take advice from their "experts" while others get the job done thinking it all out on their own, if they're thinkers. I appreciate your perspective on it all and also appreciate LL's perspective. I don't think so far any own the market on matter.
 
Re: Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So anywho, back to the initial point of the op: </div></div>

I like the Old School terms since it is exactly what it claims to be "the Value of the Wind" not "the Value output from a calculation which included the Value of the Wind".
 
Came across this thread and thought "Maybe I can actually 'contribute' to a post, for a change. ;)

I would always start on my math tests by deriving the table (below)

Only Things to Remember:

SQRT(2) = 1.414...
SQRT(3) = 1.732...

For Sin, 90 -> 1, 0->0
For Cos, Reverse what you have for the Sin, 90->0, 0->1
Tan = Sin/Cos

and if you need the tangent stuff
1/SQRT(3) = .533


Then (notice the 4,3,2,1,0 and 0,1,2,3,4 pattern)

SINCOSTAN
90SQRT(4)/21SQRT(0)/201 / 0infinity
60SQRT(3)/2.866SQRT(1)/2.5SQRT(3)/2
----------=SQRT(3)
(1/2)
1.732
45SQRT(2)/2.707SQRT(2)/2.707.707 / .7071
30SQRT(1)/2.5SQRT(3)/2.866(1/2)
----------=1/SQRT(3)
SQRT(3)/2
.533
0SQRT(0)/20SQRT(4)/210/1 0

<tbody>
</tbody>


I'm not syaing this is better or worse that other methods.
I'm just providing it as a "different" method.
 
Last edited:
Wind Scale Factors

I found this thread to be very informative so I thought I'd expand on kentactic wind diagram. Let me know if I missed something or you would like something changed.
 

Attachments

  • WindScale.pdf
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its nice finally reading a good thread about wind reading. i have lurked on site this one and alike and more often than not ever body just kind of "knows" about the wind and what to do with it. years ago i was in a few classes and noticed how important the wind was at serious distance and such, as well as how hard it was to determine and calculate. add in some winds from different directions at different distances and it was a good bit of time for the "aggregate wind". Plus most of the ballistic programs only allow for one wind input which always confused me because there are a few wind zones, or the other analog devices are made for a specific bullet/round.

from then on i embarked on a patenting a analog (think mildot master, calculator, wind drift calculating, non caliber specific) device that could be used in the field for firing solutions as well as a training tool. then kids and life got in the way for a few years, so i have a website and ton of "discs" in the basement, that i just do not have the time to get out there. it is based on the time honored wind drift system, and although it took a few tries to make it user friendly it actually works very well.

if anyone wants to take a look you can find it at BJFTactical.com. there is no price (haven't gotten hat far yet, was more of a hobby), but if you want send me a few PM's and i can send a few out for you to play with and or evaluate. directions are OK i need to make a youtube video one day but if anyone wants i can get on the phone if there are any questions.

i dont know the policy of this site about other sites, so i hope this isn't breaking any rules. and if anyone wants to look i will pay the shipping as well so i will not be making a dime.
 
Since this thread is all over the place anyway I'd like to revisit one of LL's posts. I found LL's post above on seeing the terrain's effect on wind by following the movement of the snow very interesting. Aircraft weather radars have been doing this electronically for some time so I know he is spot on in his observations. The radars calculate the velocity and direction of precip or anything else radar reflective that is moving with the wind, and when the velocities reach a certain threshold this info is presented to the pilot as a wind shear warning. I have seen wind shear warnings indicating abrupt windshifts downrange of as much as 45kts, which is over 50mph.

It probably would not be hard to build a "radar gun" for a shooter which could do the same thing but I doubt it would be that useful since you would have to have precip or something radar reflective to measure the wind.

If a handheld device could somehow measure, along the line of sight to the target, a cumulative wind value I think it would do more for long range shooting than anything developed since the telescopic sight. Someone needs to get on it!
 
i though of that myself a while ago (doing acrobatics in a sukhoi for a few years), then a few years later i saw DARPA or Ashbury working on the "mega" scope, might be called first shot or something like that. the idea is sound but like most companies i believe the original program is directed toward the military (government grants and the unlimited budget plus its the best marketing tool there is if it works) but something that emits detectable energy might not be the best idea for snipers. from there projects might just die because the market for several hundred units of a high priced new item is not really there in the mainstream public. at least not off the bat to cover original expenses.

i could be totally wrong though
 
Food for thought, if you want to learn wind, smoke is the answer!

Back in the Mil days, doing some Sniper Training on a range with some very experienced Tier 1 Trigger Pullers. The issue of reading the wind came up because everyone's shots were getting blown all over the place. Everyone was trying to look at the terrain features and vegetation to figure out what was going on. Next thing we know, one of the Tier 1 guys says "watch & learn". He then takes some 100 MPH tape and secures some smoke grenades to the back of a jeep, pulls the pins, and then heads down range. In front of us, we could clearly see how the wind was impacting the movement of the smoke, hence we could "see the wind". He came back to the firing line and said, now do you understand what the wind is doing?

Later, thanks to that event, we would routinely pop smoke on the range to "see" what the wind was actually doing. It allowed us to take something that was largely invisible and make it easy to see & study.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but by now doing this on the civilian side with new shooters, it seems to help them a lot with actually seeing how the wind behaves, which then makes it much easier for them to learn to read it and understand its impacts.
 
Smoke, what a novel idea...

Try the 2:30 Mark
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JSA8OPDOYrI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Or here, more smoke

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/MY8rwJYX8pg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Smoke is easy to use... and is being used all the time.
 
It was a novel idea for me in the 80s, first time that I had seen it!

Seems to still be a pretty novel idea, given that I have not seen it used in any of the Mil or Civ training programs that I have observed in the last couple of years.

Glad to see that it is in your material, not that I would expect anything less! Which reminds me, I need to get that material.
 
another little useful explanation of how terrain effects the wind was by taking rolled up piece of ribbon and rolling/letting it unravel down a little slope. every little bump and imperfection of the ground cause the ribbon to move and bend. the ribbon never ended up where we thought it was going to.