Lets talk about dies… what do you like and why?

[Coloradocop]

I'm wondering if I can gain any additional accuracy/consistency by switching to different dies, and/or a different press. I figure that there must be some reason that so many of you are quite fond of the expensive Redding dies, and others.

I started reloading when I was a poor college student (and I've always been a bit cheap). As such, I'm still running all of my precision rifle ammo on a Lee Classic Turret press (single stage style), using a $20 set of Lee dies. For my AIAX 260 my current process usually involves full-length sizing the brass with the Lee die, then seating the bullet with a Lee die. After the first firing I'll neck size with the Lee Collet Die for a couple of firings, then eventually full-length size again when the cases start to become difficult to chamber.

I wouldn't say that I've had bad results with this setup, and I've shot well enough with my rifle. But, I wonder if I could shoot better, and achieve noticeably increased accuracy by going to a different setup. I've been thinking of trying something like a Forster Co-Ax press with Redding dies, but even browsing the Redding lineup is enough to make your head spin all on its own (bushings, body dies, micrometer dies, etc). I know a lot of people hate Lee to begin with, but I've always taken the approach of figuring that it doesn't need fixed if it isn't broken. However, since I've increased my personal skill set with a precision rifle over the years, and am now using equipment that's worth as much as my car, I'm also starting to wonder if it's time to make other upgrades. Would it make a difference, or would I be better off just spending the money on more bullets?


The things I don't like about my current setup are as follows:

1) I don't feel like there is consistent neck tension when I seat each bullet after neck sizing. I'm going solely on feel here, and not any real measurement of neck tension. But, some bullets seat easily, while others feel more "correct".

2) I feel like I could conceivably have different on-target results by shooting some rounds from brass that was neck sized, and other rounds from brass that was full-length sized (I neck size because it's fast, and saves wear-and-tear on the brass). I'm often shooting brass from the exact same loading session, but occasionally I need to mix them. For example, when I shot the NRAWC Sporting Rifle Match over the weekend I had 50 pieces of brass on their first firing. These pieces were all full-length sized before loading. The match requires 60 rounds, and the only other ammo I had available at the time was brass on its second firing, which had been neck sized. Did this make any difference in the match? I couldn't possibly say… I shot well with it, but could I have shot better with a different loading process?


What do you guys think? What do you use, and why do you like it? Have you tried other systems?

So much of this activity is about eliminating variables. I'm scratching my head over where I could or should eliminate some more. This also isn't bench rest shooting, and a lot of our "game" comes down to wind calls, and dealing with field conditions. But, there's also no denying that accuracy begins at the reloading bench, at least to some extent.

 

[LawnMM]

Inconsistent neck tension can lead to looser SD/ES since as the pressure builds it requires more/less to unseat the bullet. In this area, I think Redding is king. Those dies aren't cheap, but they are very nicely crafted and using the bushings on the Type S dies you can ensure consistent neck tension. They are nice, will they change your life, I dunno. As for your press, you need a concentricity gauge to check the runout of your loaded rounds. If you have a bunch, a better press might help. If not, changing presses isn't likely to affect your ammo, but you may still want to for features/convenience.

I started with plain jane redding dies and an RCBS press. Now that has evolved to a Forster CoAX and Redding Type S dies. I will full length resize every case, get it primed and cleaned and trimmed, and I usually run it through the neck die last to set the neck tension consistently on all of the cases I'm loading. The other advantage to bushing dies is a two step sizing of the neck. I've heard resizing your neck in one step, if its a big jump, can really overwork the necks and that is one of the first areas prone to failure on the case. So by using a bushing full length die AND a bushing neck die I've done it in two steps. Also nice to have a neck die if you pull bullets from loaded rounds, I run them through the neck die to reset the neck tension.

How critical is any of that? I don't know. Eventually I had planned to fire some ammo that was deliberately pushed off concentric to compare it to ammo that had very little runout to see if it mattered, haven't got around to it yet. The same could be said of the neck tension issue though I find that easier to believe may have a real world effect.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Inconsistent neck tension can lead to looser SD/ES since as the pressure builds it requires more/less to unseat the bullet. In this area, I think Redding is king. Those dies aren't cheap, but they are very nicely crafted and using the bushings on the Type S dies you can ensure consistent neck tension. They are nice, will they change your life, I dunno. As for your press, you need a concentricity gauge to check the runout of your loaded rounds. If you have a bunch, a better press might help. If not, changing presses isn't likely to affect your ammo, but you may still want to for features/convenience.

I started with plain jane redding dies and an RCBS press. Now that has evolved to a Forster CoAX and Redding Type S dies. I will full length resize every case, get it primed and cleaned and trimmed, and I usually run it through the neck die last to set the neck tension consistently on all of the cases I'm loading. The other advantage to bushing dies is a two step sizing of the neck. I've heard resizing your neck in one step, if its a big jump, can really overwork the necks and that is one of the first areas prone to failure on the case. So by using a bushing full length die AND a bushing neck die I've done it in two steps. Also nice to have a neck die if you pull bullets from loaded rounds, I run them through the neck die to reset the neck tension.

How critical is any of that? I don't know. Eventually I had planned to fire some ammo that was deliberately pushed off concentric to compare it to ammo that had very little runout to see if it mattered, haven't got around to it yet. The same could be said of the neck tension issue though I find that easier to believe may have a real world effect.

This guy is spot on, but to control neck tension by feeling when seating, you'll need to cull cases, mark them and use a smaller bushing the next time. A better way to control neck tension is by annealing, even then you wont get the brass to all be annealed the same?

I'd have to say improperly annealed brass could result in some pretty out of round ammo too!

 

[Rprecision]

I have a good assortment of Lee Dies. They are less "refined" then most others but do work well where it matters.

I have moved on to Forester Dies and prefer them. I can say they seem a lot more controllable then the Lee's

Something I have never done is spin loads made with either die against each other on a concentric gage. I don't suspect the difference would be significant.

I try to keep it simple, its easy to get out of control with reloading. Everything I have gets FL sized, been down the neck sizing road, PITA. Function is paramount for me, I will give up a .1 MOA for that.

I look at each process in reloading as a investment and gauge what kind of return I can expect, I look at my equipment the same.

At the end of the day I reload to shoot, I don't shoot to reload !

 

[husker7777]

I've got a bit of an assortment. Lee, RCBS, Hornady, and Forster. I really like the Forster micrometer seating die I've got. Both the Forster and the Hornady dies have a spring loaded bushing that makes sure the bullet and brass are properly aligned when seating. You can notice the difference when you seat and in my opinion it is an improvement over other dies. That said, the stuff I load with the Lee dies shoot like they should. Just start buying guns in multiple calibers so you'll be "forced" to buy more dies. Then you can test some from each company and decide what you like for the future.

 

[jdmartin]

You will not regret it if you get a Forester co-axial press and Redding type s full length dies.LawnMM covered it very well, but I would add that bushing dies give you an important additional way to tune your loads by changing your neck tension . I have presses by RCBS,Sinclair ,Corbin and Forester.Your ability to instantly change dies on the Forester and be perfectly set up to resize or seat bullets is very handy.I now find that my RCBS presses are set up for dedicated tasks like bullet pulling ,expanding necks, tipping bullets. etc and almost all my day to day sizing and seating is done on the Forester except for 50 bmg which is too large and seating for benchrest guns with the Sinclair arbor press.
I no longer neck size because if you set up the full length dies to only push back the shoulder2-3 thousandths and use a bushing that adds only a few thousandths of neck tension,then all your brass is handled consistently and lasts a very long time.It is not the cheapest solution ,but it will give excellent results with the fewest steps.
As to #1 under things you don't like ,you will probably find that cases that seat easily will seat shorter than those that seat hard. This variation in length will disrupt the tune of your barrel and increase dispersion on target.Getting your neck tension to be uniform is critical .I think you will get less variation in neck tension with use of a bushing without an expander ball. Also never underestimate little steps like brushing the necks with a nylon brush.Even on clean or new brass this will take a lot of the crunch out of bullet seating and lengths will be more consistent.

 

[toxic]

what is everyones preference between redding type s bushing and forster benchrest sizing dies? i have only been reloading for about 6mos and i have only used standard rcbs dies, and now that i have the hang of it i want to upgrade dies. i currently load for .223 and .308. i have an rcbs rock chucker press. occasionally with the rcbs dies, i get a round that looks like the bullet is seated a bit crooked, it could just be me though, i dont have a concentricity gauge yet. i do have a .5moa load though using those dies, with 175 smks.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Redding master hunter series for me. Comes with a full length sizer and comp seater. For my uses and expectations it can't be beat. The micrometer seater is stupid easy to use.

 

[LRDD]

I have loaded a ton of good shooting ammo with regular old rcbs dies. I think attention to detail helps produce accurate ammo more than the brand of dies you use.

 

[Splat]

Anyone else use a Lee Collet? I've been getting consistent tension with .001 or less runout using Lapua 308.


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[pell1203]

I size .308 necks in two steps. I first use a Lee collet die which supports the necks inside and out while sizing and in my estimation helps with concentricity. If nothing else, it at least rounds out any dings on the neck rim.

Second, and final, pass is done using a Redding bushing die. So far doing this has yielded very consistent results.

 

[parsky1]

Anyone else use a Lee Collet? I've been getting consistent tension with .001 or less runout using Lapua 308.


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I've been using it. Do you let your press cam over when using it? I've had problems, but they might be my fault. I had better results tonight by setting the die up to not let the press cam over and only apply ~25lbs to the handle.

 

[sib1948]

Sounds like everyone is using a variation similar to what I have found toe be very effective. Using Lapua and Fed. brass. Deprime with Wilson universal deprimer, then FLS dirty in Redding FLS die to get and Ogive 2.20. Wipe off the extra Imperial sizing wax and stainless tumble for 1.5 hours. Let dry several hours or speed up the process with a hair dryer. Then I use the Lee collet die and prime the cases using Dillon 550B as a single stage press. Load with 43.5 gr. H4831sc and seat Berger VLDs with the Lee seating die for a COAL OF 2.85". Getting 6-9 fps SD out of my loads. Chrono with MagnetoSpeed V2 and speed depends on barrel length and twist. Good luck. All these dies are excellent and never have to trim and are inexpensive. I have several 260 and 308 sets set up for different bullet lengths and grains.

 

[Splat]

I prob have a little less than 25 lbs. I blew the cap off the first time I tried using it so I set up the die so it's lighter at cam over. Been great since. It doesn't seem to need a crap load of pressure to size the necks with the collet die. I can't really see the marks on the necks that everyone talks about unless I REALLY look for them.


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[Coloradocop]

It's interesting to see that some of you guys do like the Lee Collet dies that I'm currently using. I just can't quite figure out why some bullets are seating much more easily than others… it doesn't seem like neck tension is consistent on those dies (though they should be, right? The brass is just forced onto a mandrel inside of that die… hmmm).

Anyway, I may need to look into the Redding bushing dies at some point. I've thus far avoided them in my reloading setup for two reasons: 1) Expensive 2) They appear more complicated. But, you guys make some compelling arguments for them.

 

[Steel head]

I used to run the Redding S dies.
Now I use a Lee collet, redding body die and Forster BR seating die and it's been working well for me.
OP, your brass may be your issue with the varying seating force and not the die itself.

 

[LawnMM]

How many reloads on the brass and how hard are you running it powder wise? Might be losing some of it's elasticity. There's a guy on the Hide that will deprime, stainless steel media clean, and anneal your cases for 0.10$/round. Annealing may breathe life back into some worn case necks

 

[MarinePMI]

I think reloading gear/dies are a lot like kitchen knives; you end up with an amalgamation of tools that work, and get the job done well. These tools are often dictated by the user's process, so they vary from one person to the next.

JMTCW...

 

[Coloradocop]

How many reloads on the brass and how hard are you running it powder wise? Might be losing some of it's elasticity. There's a guy on the Hide that will deprime, stainless steel media clean, and anneal your cases for 0.10$/round. Annealing may breathe life back into some worn case necks

Lapua .260 Rem Brass
41.4 grains H4350 (for a muzzle velocity of 2710 fps)
I haven't exceeded 4 firings on any of my Lapua brass thus far

I will say that I don't neck turn (don't have the tools or time)

 

[darth_ritis]

I've got some RCBS dies and some Forster dies. I like the Forster dies better, especially the ultra micrometer seating dies!

I haven't dealt with concentricity or neck tension yet, next order of business is getting a stainless steel media tumbler so I can stop opening up primer pockets with the little hand pocket cleaner tools.

 

[Thump_rrr]

It's interesting to see that some of you guys do like the Lee Collet dies that I'm currently using. I just can't quite figure out why some bullets are seating much more easily than others… it doesn't seem like neck tension is consistent on those dies (though they should be, right? The brass is just forced onto a mandrel inside of that die… hmmm).

Anyway, I may need to look into the Redding bushing dies at some point. I've thus far avoided them in my reloading setup for two reasons: 1) Expensive 2) They appear more complicated. But, you guys make some compelling arguments for them.

I would say don't waste your money if it's neck tension that's your problem.
I have 200 rounds of Lapua brass that were segregated from the start (same lot number)
They were all fired 5 times before I bought an automated annealer. They were properly annealed

I noticed differences in neck tension on some pieces of brass right from the start. The neck thickness on all the brass is consistent so that isn't the problem.

Since switching to the Redding dies I still see the same neck tension issues that I was seeing before.
My groups have not improved although my friends that reload are impressed when they see the nice micrometer dies on my reloading bench.

Also by the time you buy all the different bushings for all the different thicknesses of brass you have you will spend another $100.00 or so.

Here are a few 5 round and one 3 round group from my Lee dies at 100Y.

 

[Varmint_Poontang]

In my experience, Redding Type S dies have made the difference between my groups being ~1 MOA to consistently being .5 MOA or better, and I attribute 90% of that to consistent neck tension.

 

[kansas]

I used to run the Redding S dies.
Now I use a Lee collet, redding body die and Forster BR seating die and it's been working well for me.
OP, your brass may be your issue with the varying seating force and not the die itself.

This is my exact setup. I bought a runout gauge to check but with two different calibers set up with the Lee collet, Redding body die and the Forester BR seater there is less than .001 runout on any of my ammo. That's about as good as you can make it.

 

[G17C]

This is my exact setup. I bought a runout gauge to check but with two different calibers set up with the Lee collet, Redding body die and the Forester BR seater there is less than .001 runout on any of my ammo. That's about as good as you can make it.

Since I have never used bushing dies, a couple of questions;

1. Do you resize first with the Redding S FL die and then size the neck with the Lee collet?
2. Are you using a bushing in the sizing die (I would assume not)?

Thanks!

 

[jonbearman]

If you have a custom chamber versus a factory sammi chamber then go with the lee collett die. If you use bushing dies on sammi chambered rifles which have much more clearance then you will have to step it down with a couple of bushings making more work than necessary. I would think that match prep work on your brass would be more conducive to accuracy than the die itself in some ways. Getting a coax press isn't going to make any real gain in accuracy but I would go with a rcbs rockchuker and pay attention to detail , like weighing your bullets into lots, weighing the brass into lots and keep them that way throughout the process.