Suppressors Lets talk about whisper calibers.

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fastline

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Jan 31, 2011
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#1
Have some whisper toys but have a need for a semi auto, likely AR, in a larger caliber, subsonic. Main criteria here is trying to select the best ballistics for reasonably long shots, $/round for ammo, availability of reload supplies and parts for the build, etc.

I originally was going to do a Beowulf 50 build but was finding the $/round a but high, very special ammo, and didn't sound like the BC was really optimized, just running a big hole that was probably limited to 50yds.

I know that when you are limited in velocity, you can only make up for some of that with weight so this is why I am looking at the BC, weight, etc, to figure out the best play here.

I was considering a 300 blackout but IMO, that is not much lead and not sure I would be happy with that. The reality is if you lob a bowling ball, it might have terrible trajectory numbers, but it will still hurt like hell.
 
#2
Code: 
_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0      50     100     150     200     250     300 | YARDS
Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    6.54   15.04   24.64   35.19   46.66 | drop (moa)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.55   12.44   19.84   27.56   35.56 | drop (moa)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.40   12.06   19.13   26.44   33.94 | drop (moa)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.39   12.01   19.04   26.30   33.73 | drop (moa)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.33   11.86   18.75   25.84   33.08 | drop (moa)

Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >    1.75    0.00    6.85   23.63   51.61   92.13  146.58 | drop (inches)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.81   19.54   41.55   72.16  111.72 | drop (inches)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.66   18.94   40.06   69.21  106.61 | drop (inches)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.64   18.87   39.87   68.85  105.98 | drop (inches)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.58   18.62   39.27   67.66  103.91 | drop (inches)

Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >   -0.11    0.05    0.23    0.44    0.68    0.94    1.24 | drop per yard (inches)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.36    0.53    0.70    0.88 | drop per yard (inches)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.34    0.50    0.66    0.83 | drop per yard (inches)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.34    0.50    0.66    0.83 | drop per yard (inches)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.34    0.49    0.65    0.80 | drop per yard (inches)

Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >    1100    1005     936     881     833     791     751 | velocity (fps)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >    1100    1072    1048    1025    1005     986     969 | velocity (fps)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >    1100    1083    1068    1054    1040    1027    1015 | velocity (fps)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >    1100    1085    1071    1057    1045    1033    1021 | velocity (fps)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >    1100    1089    1079    1070    1060    1051    1043 | velocity (fps)
Once you get into rifle bullets, stepping up in BC doesn't make a big difference...
 
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#3
If you want more lead, maybe try a lever gun with these
detroitammoco.com

Subsonic 45/70 Government 500gr RN - Detroit Ammo Co.

Subsonic 45/70 Government 500gr RN Manufacturer: Triple R Munitions Condition: Factory New Bullet Weight: 500 Grain Bullet Type: Bear Creek Ammo Casing: Brass Ammo Caliber: 45/70 Government Primer Type: Boxer Velocity: 1000 Ft/s Rounds: 20 No surplus powders or primers are used to build our...
detroitammoco.com detroitammoco.com
 
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#5
I know you said AR, but the new Henry model X 357 and 44 special sure fit the bill.

Super quiet surpressed, almost 22lr decibel levels, cheap, and will do just about all a blackout will energy wise.

I sure don't miss effing with the gas block, either :)
 
#6
I'm about to put an swfa 1-4 on my Henry x 357.
Cheap low power scope tracks perfectly. We'll see if I can ring steel at 400 yards with cowboy 38 special handloads 😎
 
#7
Again, really going for semi auto here. Used to have a 44 mag tube fed rifle. Cannot recall model but a ruger. Probably a decent suppressed round but trying to stay semi auto.

I cannot imagine anything with 338 in it that is cheap?

Zak, thanks for crunching some numbers! I did not realize the BC would have so little affect here. However I am also looking specifically at energy at POI, and bullet stability. If memory serves, a bullet that is governed by speed is best to be as heavy as practical, thus why one of my other Savage builds is headed down the road of the Amax .510 bullet but that is another discussion.
 
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#8
CaptArab said:
I know you said AR, but the new Henry model X 357 and 44 special sure fit the bill.

Super quiet surpressed, almost 22lr decibel levels, cheap, and will do just about all a blackout will energy wise.

I sure don't miss effing with the gas block, either :)
Click to expand...
The Ruger 77/44 is nice also with the detachable mag. Or the 357 version.

But that’s going backwards in a big way if he wants BC
 
#9
What’s are you shooting with it.? 300 blk will kill deer etc. I have a couple different ones. Thinning the herd now I have a complete Aac upper with the ffp Leupold Scope for sale. $2000 for whole works very accurate.
 
#10
Trying to think if any of the modern AR thumpers can take a big ass cast 44 spl/magnum bullet???

That would be ideal $$$/round wise.
 
#11
Maybe a cmmg 45 upper would work for you?
They run pretty good, I have the 9mm version.
I shoot 147 and 160s, but 230 grain 45acp bullets might work for you.
 
#12
Capt, I think we are thinking along the same. Has to be some common round that can be loaded up with some lead truck pistons. I was looking at that 45/70 ammo and DAMN that stuff is not cheap! I realized years ago that I might have to cast my own to run big girl grains because those get pretty expensive quick.

Just for clarity, I mostly have a coyote problem and though I am in the country, I like my ears and respect my neighbors. We are 100% legal any time day/night, night vision, FLIR, you name it. County has a yote problem and I am experiencing that. Beyond that, I want an agile tactical piece around for BLMs. Removable mags are a must.

I think in the past, I found there was mostly a limit in the AR15 regarding grain capacity and powder due to the length. I could move to an AR10 but I am trying to not break the bank even though this one will probably get used a lot.
 
#16
fastline said:
Capt, I think we are thinking along the same. Has to be some common round that can be loaded up with some lead truck pistons. I was looking at that 45/70 ammo and DAMN that stuff is not cheap! I realized years ago that I might have to cast my own to run big girl grains because those get pretty expensive quick.

Just for clarity, I mostly have a coyote problem and though I am in the country, I like my ears and respect my neighbors. We are 100% legal any time day/night, night vision, FLIR, you name it. County has a yote problem and I am experiencing that. Beyond that, I want an agile tactical piece around for BLMs. Removable mags are a must.

I think in the past, I found there was mostly a limit in the AR15 regarding grain capacity and powder due to the length. I could move to an AR10 but I am trying to not break the bank even though this one will probably get used a lot.
Click to expand...
223 all day every day for yotes and commies.

Maybe you already have one.
 
#17
fastline said:
Again, really going for semi auto here. Used to have a 44 mag tube fed rifle. Cannot recall model but a ruger. Probably a decent suppressed round but trying to stay semi auto.

I cannot imagine anything with 338 in it that is cheap?

Zak, thanks for crunching some numbers! I did not realize the BC would have so little affect here. However I am also looking specifically at energy at POI, and bullet stability. If memory serves, a bullet that is governed by speed is best to be as heavy as practical, thus why one of my other Savage builds is headed down the road of the Amax .510 bullet but that is another discussion.
Click to expand...

More or less, this is why BC doesn't play a huge part for subsonic use. It's also why BC changes over velocity, and why most G1/G7 calculators kinda suck when you try to use them for subs. The calculators are trying to use data from the right side of Mach 1.0.
subs.jpg
 
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#18
I heard that, removable mags are a must for black lives matter.

fastline said:
Capt, I think we are thinking along the same. Has to be some common round that can be loaded up with some lead truck pistons. I was looking at that 45/70 ammo and DAMN that stuff is not cheap! I realized years ago that I might have to cast my own to run big girl grains because those get pretty expensive quick.

Just for clarity, I mostly have a coyote problem and though I am in the country, I like my ears and respect my neighbors. We are 100% legal any time day/night, night vision, FLIR, you name it. County has a yote problem and I am experiencing that. Beyond that, I want an agile tactical piece around for BLMs. Removable mags are a must.

I think in the past, I found there was mostly a limit in the AR15 regarding grain capacity and powder due to the length. I could move to an AR10 but I am trying to not break the bank even though this one will probably get used a lot.
Click to expand...
 
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#20
350 legend could swage down heavy 357 bullets -180 xtp and 230 bowling pin cast lead bullets.

You could also load light supersonics I'd you need mow volume and no powah.

Great 200 yard deer gun with lil gun.
 
#22
CaptArab said:
350 legend could swage down heavy 357 bullets -180 xtp and 230 bowling pin cast lead bullets.

You could also load light supersonics I'd you need mow volume and no powah.

Great 200 yard deer gun with lil gun.
Click to expand...
Winchester make a 255 grain sub round. Should be easy enough to replicate if your reloading.
 
#23
I run 500gr subs out of the .458 socom. Cycles in an AR-15, 40rd mags hold about 13 rounds single-stacked. After about 150 yards it drops out of the sky like nothing else.
I also have a 20” barreled savage, but never did any load development for it. One of these years I’ll pick it back up, but the project has been on the backburner for awhile now.
 
#24
I recall having a convo with the founder at Alexander Arms on the Beu 50. He is a sharp guy and had indicated the limitations of the AR15 but his goal was to get the "max" into that platform, and he did. Just have to figure out some options but I do like the .350 Legend idea, or at least ammo is reasonable.

Anyone happen to know rough build cost differences between the AR10 and AR15? I guess it could be a thought to go right to the insane Amax setup in a semi auto, but I would probably have to find a donor casing and would end up being a special load deal. maybe I am getting dreamy.

I think my goal would like to move 500-600gr. Not sure I can do that in the AR15. May have to come back to reality that I won't carry many round with that either. hmmm....
 
#27
fastline said:
I recall having a convo with the founder at Alexander Arms on the Beu 50. He is a sharp guy and had indicated the limitations of the AR15 but his goal was to get the "max" into that platform, and he did. Just have to figure out some options but I do like the .350 Legend idea, or at least ammo is reasonable.

Anyone happen to know rough build cost differences between the AR10 and AR15? I guess it could be a thought to go right to the insane Amax setup in a semi auto, but I would probably have to find a donor casing and would end up being a special load deal. maybe I am getting dreamy.

I think my goal would like to move 500-600gr. Not sure I can do that in the AR15. May have to come back to reality that I won't carry many round with that either. hmmm....
Click to expand...
I'm just speculating, but I don't think the ar10 is going to be a good fit. It's going to be a bear to get that super heavy large frame bcg to cycle at subsonic pressure levels.

You don't need 308 sized cases to hold a subsonic powder charge either, so you're not getting anything from going up a frame size.
 
#28
Zak Smith said:
Code: 
_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0      50     100     150     200     250     300 | YARDS
Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    6.54   15.04   24.64   35.19   46.66 | drop (moa)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.55   12.44   19.84   27.56   35.56 | drop (moa)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.40   12.06   19.13   26.44   33.94 | drop (moa)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.39   12.01   19.04   26.30   33.73 | drop (moa)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    5.33   11.86   18.75   25.84   33.08 | drop (moa)

Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >    1.75    0.00    6.85   23.63   51.61   92.13  146.58 | drop (inches)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.81   19.54   41.55   72.16  111.72 | drop (inches)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.66   18.94   40.06   69.21  106.61 | drop (inches)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.64   18.87   39.87   68.85  105.98 | drop (inches)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >    1.75    0.00    5.58   18.62   39.27   67.66  103.91 | drop (inches)

Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >   -0.11    0.05    0.23    0.44    0.68    0.94    1.24 | drop per yard (inches)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.36    0.53    0.70    0.88 | drop per yard (inches)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.34    0.50    0.66    0.83 | drop per yard (inches)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.34    0.50    0.66    0.83 | drop per yard (inches)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >   -0.11    0.04    0.19    0.34    0.49    0.65    0.80 | drop per yard (inches)

Pistol (BC 0.1)   0.100 1100 >    1100    1005     936     881     833     791     751 | velocity (fps)
.30 150           0.400 1100 >    1100    1072    1048    1025    1005     986     969 | velocity (fps)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >    1100    1083    1068    1054    1040    1027    1015 | velocity (fps)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >    1100    1085    1071    1057    1045    1033    1021 | velocity (fps)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >    1100    1089    1079    1070    1060    1051    1043 | velocity (fps)
Once you get into rifle bullets, stepping up in BC doesn't make a big difference...
Click to expand...
This is a good comparison.

On a different note comparing some kind of apples with some kind of oranges, we tested a .45 ACP out of a TC Contender pushing 230 RN's @ about 1050 fps. And, a .300 Blackout pushing 220's out at the same speed. The difference on paper was about three feet. So was the actual testing.

Yes, the high BC 220's shot better, but @ 500 yds, it was only three feet. 28 feet of drop (.30-220 gr.) vs. 31 feet of drop (.45 230 gr.). That margin gets smaller as distance decreases.

So, a big "note to self" here is that the question you are asking has an answer in favor of what you might think. But, the drop is so prolific that it makes no difference what you choose. The energy on target is relatively the same too.

The best answer I can give to this is to look at the drops you find acceptable at what ranges. In inches not feet. Because the 500 yd. number is out of the ballpark. As you will probably find in the 300 yd. numbers for either round as well. Both work best within the 200 yd. range.

The bottom line is EVERYTHING you push out at subsonic speeds to enhance noise suppression is going to fall out of the sky at subsonic speed. So, find what works and stay with it. There is no magic pill for this. Slow speed is what it is and you will have to compensate greatly for stepping beyond it's bounds.
 
#30
So with subs there are a bunch of trade-offs you have to consider. Since MV is fixed at whatever subsonic is at your temp/elevation, the only way to get more energy on target is more mass. Larger surface area and larger mass will mean more KE and a bigger hole. But that also brings us back to why you are running subs in the first place, being subsonic to avoid the supersonic crack of the bullet in flight and reducing the report from the muzzle with a suppressor. So the other side of that coin is the larger the bore diameter the more difficult it is to keep all that gas in the can and reduce the sound signature. You can either go with a ridiculously long can and risk a baffle strike, or try and get your bullet going with less powder or a with a complete burn in the barrel.
There’s a lot of leeway with either route, trying to find that happy medium for your application (sound vs energy). Again realistically, the muzzle velocity handicap will limit your effective range with any of these setups.
The other facet to mull over is penetration vs expansion...there are a few boutique bullet shops that sell bullets designed to expand at subsonic velocity...and there is also the lathe turned solids route to try and squeeze some penetration out of a sub cartridge as well. Neither route is particularly cheap.
 
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