Now I know these are manufacture controlled items meaning they aren't illegal and I also know because of that restriction from the manufacture they aren't easy to come across but since they are illegal why are they frowned upon when up for sale if the are completely legit. I mean I see Peq 2s up for grabs
Night Vision Let's talk Peq15s
- Thread starter Dj702
- Start date
There has been many subjects talking about this. You may want to look at those past posts.
And they are all stolen military property, troll somewhere else.
I beg to differ Cory, they are not all stolen. I have two, one of which came directly from a distributor. Also some were purchased by LE Agencies but paid for by individual officers (L3 has clamped down on this practice) as is this case with my second PEQ-15.
I know one thing. First rule of peq15 club is....you don't talk about peq-15's
BAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
The second rule of peq15 club is... well its the first rule louder but it outta be "Don't post pictures of your self at a carbine class in a too small plate carrier over your fat gut trying to look like an operator with a PEQ 15 on your tricked out AR."
Just sayin
That's a solid copy roger roger
OK Arrow, they may not be stolen, but they are still orphans, since you are not a legitimate purchaser/end user. Try getting it repaired. Good luck with that. Aside from making your wanna-be type friends jealous, just what can you use a 25mw IR laser for anyway? Do a lot of target designation for gunships on your range do you?
I think this is sig worthy.
I watch Cory on Gun Stories. He's a really, really, really fast shooter.
We're just fielding them to 100%. Got one, check the SN...just saying
CoryT, we met at Gunsite last month and I thought you a pretty nice guy, perhaps you were having a bad day yesterday?
I don't have any wannabe friends, although I do have a lot of, "have been", or "still are" friends. I do not consider myself an expert in NV gear, but I have used NVG's in patrol, detectives, SWAT and as a soldier in Iraq 04-05. I also developed the course curriculum and am the lead instructor for the NVG Operator Course for two different SWAT associations, and also had an NVG article published recently in a national publication.
With that said, you are correct...I do NOT need a high powered IR laser. They safety screws on my PEQ's are never removed. I have owned or do own IR lasers from, L3, Wilcox, NVEC and SureFire. IMHO L3 makes the vastly superior product and it is for that reason I own and teach with the PEQ-15's.
Arrow 4
I don't have any wannabe friends, although I do have a lot of, "have been", or "still are" friends. I do not consider myself an expert in NV gear, but I have used NVG's in patrol, detectives, SWAT and as a soldier in Iraq 04-05. I also developed the course curriculum and am the lead instructor for the NVG Operator Course for two different SWAT associations, and also had an NVG article published recently in a national publication.
With that said, you are correct...I do NOT need a high powered IR laser. They safety screws on my PEQ's are never removed. I have owned or do own IR lasers from, L3, Wilcox, NVEC and SureFire. IMHO L3 makes the vastly superior product and it is for that reason I own and teach with the PEQ-15's.
Arrow 4
My apology then, most civvies that scrounge up a grey market high power laser are exactly as described. Since there is pretty good reason to regulate these things, I get kind of short with people suggesting it's fine to get one, when they probably have no idea what NOHD means. There was nothing in your post to indicate you as an LE instructor, which of course gives you ample reason to have such a unit. I'd expect the agency to provide one, but some have no money and some just don't think that way, so you need to do what you need to do.
I would however, not make a point of suggesting that they ARE available, since perfectly good, supported and legal units are available with power levels that are appropriate for the individual. Want a PEQ-15? Join the military and if you pick the right MOS you'll get one. Want something for personal use? Buy a CIVL. Need illum, buy a SPIR. Let's not promote a grey market.
I would however, not make a point of suggesting that they ARE available, since perfectly good, supported and legal units are available with power levels that are appropriate for the individual. Want a PEQ-15? Join the military and if you pick the right MOS you'll get one. Want something for personal use? Buy a CIVL. Need illum, buy a SPIR. Let's not promote a grey market.
Just to add, i don't own a peq15, but i have had the opportunity to use legally possessed peq15's in civilian hunting applications in conjunction with gen3 pvs14 and they aren't all that. Actually i think the peq15 sux for hunting and close range field shooting. The reason is that you can only set it for low laser/low illumination or hi laser/hi illumination. Lo/lo probably great for indoors cqb but not outside. Lo laser is just right, but lo illumination is not as bright as i would like or as bright of many of the civie available ir illuminators. If it had low laser and hi illumination would be great but hi laser too bright for most targets 100yrds and in. Gives a very large halo making it almost unusable. So while the peq15 looks cool and is great for dropping jdams, there are a lot of better options for civilians. An OTAL/ITAL plus Torch Pro or surefire vampire light or a DBAL D2 are legal to own, cheaper and much more usable. Just sayin, i was disappointed with performance of the peq15 for hunting. Hope this helps all you former action guys(FAG's) and wannabe's jones'en for a shiny peq15.
GJ
GJ
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Nothing wrong with owning a peq-15 or peq-2 . Do you need them no, but whats wrong with owning 1 or 2 of them? I understand the dont support the" grey market", but thats easy to say when you already have or can have a peq-15 or peq-2. Why should a man pay 1600 or 1700 dollars for a Dbal D2 when he can pick - up a peq-2 for 800 - 900 dollars??? If you can pick-up a used peq-15 or a peq-2 AND except the fact that YOU might not be able to get it repaired AND it will not have a warranty then I say buy all means go for it!
Here are a couple of pictures from my NVG Operators Course last month in AZ.
I sure the fuck don't think any "law enforcement" needs a peq-15 any more than me. What target designation would or should they making with 25mw laser? They can simply use what the rest of us low life's use. No?
I guarantee I have more operational use of nvg's and lasers then the vast majority of any law enforcement I've come
across and the ones I work with personally all the time.
I guarantee I have more operational use of nvg's and lasers then the vast majority of any law enforcement I've come
across and the ones I work with personally all the time.
Well, they certainly don't need hi power modes, but the combo of pointer and illum in one box leaves them with only the DBAL-D2 as another option, and that's only recently available. I've sold some DBAL-A2's to agencies for example, but the safety screw might as well be welded in place. That was prior to the D2 being produced. LE gets some value from the laser illum, which eliminates the signature of an LED unit, and that does not seem to be available in any of the low power only systems. A .07mw pointer is plenty for LE work, for sure, but it would be nice to have a laser illumes well. The CIVL ditches the illum altogether, the D2 substitutes the LED, but at least it's a single unit. So, even thought they don't actually have any use for the capabilities, they end up with a high power type unit.
Most LE does not seem to get enough training time to use this stuff effectively, even when the agency ponies up to get it. There are individuals and ex-military guys that have tons more time under NOD's. Those who have a decent amount of time working with them, like you, know that the high power modes are really only of any value to military operations.
Most LE does not seem to get enough training time to use this stuff effectively, even when the agency ponies up to get it. There are individuals and ex-military guys that have tons more time under NOD's. Those who have a decent amount of time working with them, like you, know that the high power modes are really only of any value to military operations.
i have a strong preference for higher power laser illum on precision rifles and the DBAL-D2 style LED illum on carbines. No real use for the designator on precision rifles and low power seems best for carbines.
but any worthwhile comparison between the PEQ15 and DBAL-D2 would surely include battery life, given the difference in output of 600mW/300mW LED illum vs 30mW/3.5mW laser illum
but any worthwhile comparison between the PEQ15 and DBAL-D2 would surely include battery life, given the difference in output of 600mW/300mW LED illum vs 30mW/3.5mW laser illum
I see alot of the word (need) being thrown around. Need is a word I dont like to use when talking guns or equipment. That can go many different directions. I use my PVS14 alot while hunting/scouting and I keep my Dbal on the Lo-IR setting cause the Hi-IR gives me alot of bloom on targets. The Lo setting gives me a nice precise beam and dot on target. I couldnt imagine having the Mil strength laser. It would be more of a distraction while trying to stay on target.
What's the NOHD of a .45? .308? A .338? A .50?
Point is, the idea that something is too dangerous when dealing with a bunch of firearms owners is pretty silly.
I'd pick up an IZLID if I could. For the same reason I'd pick up a ma deuce, shits and gigs. Neither of which are "useful" to me, but to tell me that I'm not safe enough to own one is just silly.
Point is, the idea that something is too dangerous when dealing with a bunch of firearms owners is pretty silly.
I'd pick up an IZLID if I could. For the same reason I'd pick up a ma deuce, shits and gigs. Neither of which are "useful" to me, but to tell me that I'm not safe enough to own one is just silly.
"If you want that you should join the military"
You sound like idiots that want semi autos banned.
The high powered illumination is what people are after IMO. I would agree about the high powered laser. The only good that is for is entertainment.
You sound like idiots that want semi autos banned.
The high powered illumination is what people are after IMO. I would agree about the high powered laser. The only good that is for is entertainment.
The high-powered illumination IS a laser. It's a laser-based illuminator. Low is still higher than allowable by the FDA.
Deersniper is correct, what most people are after is the illumanation of the peq-15 and peq-2s. The illumanation is great for hogs and coyotes. If a person is worried about where a peq-15 or peq-2 comes from or warrant if it breaks. Why not try Newcon Optics Lam-2? I have used a friends before. For 1375 to 1600 dollars you can pic one up. You dont have to be LEO or Millitary to get one, because Newcon Optics has no contracts with military. The Lam-2 has a short range eye safe mode as well the long range mode= not eye safe. Own the laser side it give about a 2moa size circle at 100 yards. I can tell you the exact mW own the IR and laser, but it seam to be about the same in comparason with a peq-15 when run side by side.
THIS^. If the LE needs 'em then perhaps I do to. Considering all they've been doing to inspire in me trust and confidence in them in the last decade, I'd say this may be the case. And yeah, I know what you mean. These douchebags shouldn't be allowed within ten feet of a Class3 IR laser yet they hand 'em out then bitch about FDA and safety to me, so used to teach fucksticks like these how to use them in the first place. Prior to instruction, most thought they were fancy paperweights.
Go figure.
PS, if you have a mill, maybe a lathe depending, and a little electronics experience, making a quality unit on par with the IZLID isn't hard to do. And 100% legal provided it isn't for sale.
Really? I don't see how there is any contradiction. You have a hazardous piece of electronic gear that is not covered by anything in the Bill of Rights, so it can clearly be regulated. These regulations prohibit the sale of high power non-eye safe lasers to unqualified individuals. I think that restriction is perfectly reasonable, even if you did have some real use for the device, which you don't. You can buy a perfectly functional pointer and illuminator that is eye safe, more than adequate for an individual user. The LE/Mil use dictates that a high power level may be required for the job at hand. While an LED illuminator may provide enough light for LE, the downrange signature may make it unacceptable and a laser illuminator is the answer. That the mfg's don't provide an eye safe power level just means they end up with a unit they don't actually NEED, but they are exempt from the power level restriction so the mfg's have no real incentive to make something else.
Since the LDI SPIR provides illumination to 800 yards, which is pretty much beyond the ability of most NVG's to actually identify a target anyway, so it seems that you can get everything actually need without a non-eye safe laser system. So I don't see the allure of these grey market items other than for the 'impress my friends" types, that want cool guy mil-spec stuff to show off.
These lasers should be handled like firearms, and most of the time they get handled like toys or flashlights. Hell, they had to write laws to prohibit pointing VISIBLE lasers at airplanes and blinding pilots, since apparently most people are morons and can't see how this might be a bad idea. The problem with IR is the damage is not obvious, it's cumulative and you can be causing damage to others without even knowing it's happening. So, you may not agree, but I don't have any problem with restrictions on these any more than having restrictions on flash bangs, hand grenades or nuclear power plants. With guns, at least everyone with half a brain notices the hazard, when you shoot it, the damage is there to see. With the laser, the uneducated have no idea its frying spots in someone's retina, and ever the person being fried might not notice what's going on until it's way too late. Blinding weapons are banned even on the battlefield, and you want to sell this to every Tom, Dick and Harry and have them sitting in the mall zapping people at will?
There is no correlation between IR lasers and firearms, other than they both present some kind of a hazard to others. Advocating for some kind of restriction on a laser does not imply any kind of support for, nor can it be compared to, some kind of restrictions on a firearm. I think if you want an MP5 you should just order it on Amazon and have it delivered Next Day UPS. We are talking apples and oranges. It's still a reasonably free country, so you may certainly disagree. I'm open to arguments on why restrictions on lasers should not exist, but 'because I want one' is not convincing, at least to me. In any event, I don't make the rules, so it probably does not matter what I think.
Since the LDI SPIR provides illumination to 800 yards, which is pretty much beyond the ability of most NVG's to actually identify a target anyway, so it seems that you can get everything actually need without a non-eye safe laser system. So I don't see the allure of these grey market items other than for the 'impress my friends" types, that want cool guy mil-spec stuff to show off.
These lasers should be handled like firearms, and most of the time they get handled like toys or flashlights. Hell, they had to write laws to prohibit pointing VISIBLE lasers at airplanes and blinding pilots, since apparently most people are morons and can't see how this might be a bad idea. The problem with IR is the damage is not obvious, it's cumulative and you can be causing damage to others without even knowing it's happening. So, you may not agree, but I don't have any problem with restrictions on these any more than having restrictions on flash bangs, hand grenades or nuclear power plants. With guns, at least everyone with half a brain notices the hazard, when you shoot it, the damage is there to see. With the laser, the uneducated have no idea its frying spots in someone's retina, and ever the person being fried might not notice what's going on until it's way too late. Blinding weapons are banned even on the battlefield, and you want to sell this to every Tom, Dick and Harry and have them sitting in the mall zapping people at will?
There is no correlation between IR lasers and firearms, other than they both present some kind of a hazard to others. Advocating for some kind of restriction on a laser does not imply any kind of support for, nor can it be compared to, some kind of restrictions on a firearm. I think if you want an MP5 you should just order it on Amazon and have it delivered Next Day UPS. We are talking apples and oranges. It's still a reasonably free country, so you may certainly disagree. I'm open to arguments on why restrictions on lasers should not exist, but 'because I want one' is not convincing, at least to me. In any event, I don't make the rules, so it probably does not matter what I think.
dunno where you took constitutional law, but you overpaid.
what about a total ban do you find perfectly reasonable? there are lots of reasonable ways to address access and use of dangerous items in our society. a total ban is about as unreasonable as you can get.
fortunately, you don't get decide who needs what, because you totally suck at that so far.
I guess you'll have to point me to the article that says the government has no right to restrict a laser, or you have some specific right to have one. It's not an 'arm', by and of itself it's not a weapon that might be covered by the 2nd. Saying I'm wrong does not explain WHY you think I'm wrong. Of various things the feds might choose to regulate, I don't see anything that might prevent them in this case. Note, they do not prohibit the use or possession of such a device, just the commercial sale of units with a certain power level which presents a hazard that is for practical purposes, invisible. If promoting the general welfare and the commerce clause don't cover this kind of regulation, then I'm not quite sure just what the feds might do to regulate much of ANYTHING, which clearly makes no sense as far as I can see. They regulate poison gas for example, even though I'd like to pump some VX down the ground squirrel holes in my yard some days. I'm pretty sure asserting my rights under the 2nd is not really going to get much support for that, and it's pretty clearly an 'arm'.
The ban is NOT total, it simply restricts the commercial sale of certain wavelengths and power levels. As has been pointed out, you could always build your own. It was certainly pretty annoying not to have access to any IR system, but since the change to allow the lower power levels and the mfg's building devices for you and I, I still don't see the problem. Just what, specifically, are you going to do with a 25mw IR pointer that you can't do perfectly well with a .07mw device?
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but just what case do you have to make to eliminate the restriction, and if it existed, why has no one bothered to pursue it? Either they have the right to regulate them, or they don't. IF they do, and I don't see any reason they don't, then what they are restricting and how they do it does not seem to be too burdensome to be unconstitutional. If you think I'm wrong, I'd expect a better argument than I suck. As yet, I have not seen a single reasoned counter argument to cause me to alter my position. I might well be wrong on this, certainly I've been wrong about things before.
So, does anyone have any particular reasoning they'd like to share that would explain just why these regulations are unconstitutional, and should be revoked so you can go to K Mart and pick up a 200mw IR laser pointer at your leisure?
The ban is NOT total, it simply restricts the commercial sale of certain wavelengths and power levels. As has been pointed out, you could always build your own. It was certainly pretty annoying not to have access to any IR system, but since the change to allow the lower power levels and the mfg's building devices for you and I, I still don't see the problem. Just what, specifically, are you going to do with a 25mw IR pointer that you can't do perfectly well with a .07mw device?
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but just what case do you have to make to eliminate the restriction, and if it existed, why has no one bothered to pursue it? Either they have the right to regulate them, or they don't. IF they do, and I don't see any reason they don't, then what they are restricting and how they do it does not seem to be too burdensome to be unconstitutional. If you think I'm wrong, I'd expect a better argument than I suck. As yet, I have not seen a single reasoned counter argument to cause me to alter my position. I might well be wrong on this, certainly I've been wrong about things before.
So, does anyone have any particular reasoning they'd like to share that would explain just why these regulations are unconstitutional, and should be revoked so you can go to K Mart and pick up a 200mw IR laser pointer at your leisure?
I for one think if you can own a firearm you should be trust worthy not to shine a laser in someone's eye's. so if its something not inherently harmful or dangerous (like a gun) than there should be a way to own one. even if there is paper work. I would fill out a form to show im a ok guy and not trying to harm others eyes... it is a tool like may others i use if you are responsible with it there is no reason you should have it. people have cannons and tanks... not together but you can have them.
I just don't feel like compromising what I can have vs what they can have, if we all are to be held to the same rules.
I just don't feel like compromising what I can have vs what they can have, if we all are to be held to the same rules.
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The silly thing is that I have used far more powerful lasers than any of what's being discussed in here, and have the FDA paperwork to prove it. Yet being more qualified to safely utilize laser systems than even the guys that get issued this stuff, I am unable to purchase one from the manufacturer.
Fortunately building a 1W 860nm laser is neither difficult nor expensive.
The argument that because it's not enumerated in the Bill of Rights the government is free to regulate however they desire is disingenuous at best. If the same rules applied we'd be allowed nothing more than a .22 single-shot.
Fortunately building a 1W 860nm laser is neither difficult nor expensive.
The argument that because it's not enumerated in the Bill of Rights the government is free to regulate however they desire is disingenuous at best. If the same rules applied we'd be allowed nothing more than a .22 single-shot.
That's not what I said, or even implied. If you want to argue that the feds have no right to regulate lasers, then I would also argue that they have no right to regulate radio waves, and the FCC should not exist. If a guy next door to you wants to build a radio tower and broadcast a signal that scrambles your computer every time he keys the mike, that should be perfectly OK, right?
But the substantial difference between your example and mine is that mine does not inherently have any effect on other people simply through its basic operation. That's the individual part of the individual liberty idea. YOU have the freedom to do what YOU want as long as it's not messing with someone else. Our examples are different at the most basic level. In fact I would posit that your example of home radio use is in no way even remotely comparable, whereas my .22 example is almost exactly in line with your thoughts on lasers.
Having to justify use is like the sporting clause. I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of telling a bunch of firearms owners that they are too unsafe to use a laser. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to get a variance just like any other laser and purchase one with my own money. The fact that it's easier to get a machine gun illustrates the folly of the regulation quite nicely.
no, i don't, which is the point. first, the gov doesn't have rights. The People have rights. the gov has 'powers'. that's not a trivial, semantic detail. but more importantly, the Bill of Rights reserves for the People any rights not specifically mentioned in the Constitution and reserves all powers not specifically granted to the federal government to the People or the States. so just because a right isn't listed in the BoR, that doesn't mean we don't have it. but if a power isn't specifically granted to the fed gov, they don't have it. (although historically, there's not much stopping them from going ahead and assuming new powers which pretty much every administration has done since Lincoln)
your posts were exactly backwards on both points, assuming that we don't have a right because it's not listed, and that the gov has the power to restrict anything.
as i already said, shoot long range at night.
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Exactly.
I'm still waiting on why Leo need a high powered laser? To designate targets? Or maybe because some animals are more equal than others.
It's fine to quibble about the semantics of my post, but I still don't see how it changes anything. We can just edit the post to say the feds would appear to have the power to regulate laser output and wavelength, as opposed to the RIGHT to regulate it. I don't see where we the people have some overriding clause that would prevent them from enforcing such a regulation, and as yet no one has suggested that they don't have any authority to do so. If there was an enumerated right, then it would be clear the feds are in the wrong, but I can't see anything that applies. The unenumerated rights we have don't seem to apply either, just what limits the current federal regulation that you could take to court? Just outline the case for me, and explain how a similar regulation on radio waves would then be OK, or perhaps you don't think the State has a compelling interest there either?
I think we all agree that LE has no actual NEED for a high power IR unit, they happen to be exempt however, and since the mfg's don't make a low power only unit that fills their need, they get a high power unit.
I shoot plenty at night, with a PVS-26 and 27, use a SPIR for illum and it works every bit as well as the CGP-2A and DBAL-A3, so I don't see any specific harm being done.
I think we all agree that LE has no actual NEED for a high power IR unit, they happen to be exempt however, and since the mfg's don't make a low power only unit that fills their need, they get a high power unit.
I shoot plenty at night, with a PVS-26 and 27, use a SPIR for illum and it works every bit as well as the CGP-2A and DBAL-A3, so I don't see any specific harm being done.
Cory, I'm actually not opposed to reasonable regulation. My concern is that what you're proposing isn't reasonable. Outlawing items is not only offensive, but also ineffective. It hasn't worked for alcohol, drugs, guns, etc and it won't work for IR lasers either. Regulations against behavior are far more reasonable. An analogy would be that the gov doesn't say you can't have a 600 hp car. They say you can't drive over 70 mph. They don't (in my state) say you can't have a gun. They say you can't point it at people, or shoot it in the city limits.
So why would you advocate for banning an item from civilian use, when far more reasonable and effective regulations would be something like, "don't point it at people" and at worst, maybe training and a certificate? heck, you can't even paint fingernails without nail tech training and a certificate. reasonable could be something like a NV/IR endorsement on a hunting license.
starting off by saying they're all stolen, and then calling everybody who wants one a wannabe, and then saying we shouldn't be allowed to own things we don't 'need', and then displaying a profound lack of understanding of the Constitution/BoR all reflect pretty poorly on Gunsite.
So why would you advocate for banning an item from civilian use, when far more reasonable and effective regulations would be something like, "don't point it at people" and at worst, maybe training and a certificate? heck, you can't even paint fingernails without nail tech training and a certificate. reasonable could be something like a NV/IR endorsement on a hunting license.
starting off by saying they're all stolen, and then calling everybody who wants one a wannabe, and then saying we shouldn't be allowed to own things we don't 'need', and then displaying a profound lack of understanding of the Constitution/BoR all reflect pretty poorly on Gunsite.
Maybe it reflects poorly on Gunsite to you, but not to me, or I suspect the hundreds of other fellow students Cory has instructed there. If I were you I would back off.
when you tell people you cant have some thing that usually makes them want it more! I know this is going to make some people mad , but lots of peq-2s and peq-15 that the average guy obtains comes from LEOs and NOT stolen military on ebay. Here is an example. Small departments years back, didn't have the money for peq-2s. Officers ask chief if its alright to buy peq-2, chief says YES. The officer get a peq-2 then years latter sells it to a friend for 800 dollars. The friend gets a good used peq-2 and then the officer spend 1300 for a new morovision peq-15. That's why there are ALWAYS peq-2s own ebay. The average man also looks at it like this. Why should a person be forced to buy a civil dbal-d2 for 1300-1500 dollars , when he could buy a dbal a2 class 3, like his cop friends for 900 dollars???? He cant buy the class 3 so he is forced buy the industry to spend more money. This is why there is a so called" grey market"! The average person fells ripped off and angry that the industry and government tells them basicly= your not worthy or smart enough to own a class 3 laser. My guess is that people that want peq-2s and peq-15s will keep getting them from ebay and LEO friends.
Ive never been able to get a bird to locate a target I was sparkling with a PEQ15, always had to use an IZLID.
Anyway, 15's really aren't that cool, the civilian stuff will basically do the same exact stuff.
You are really limited by what your NV will do anyway, not your laser. You will see a greater benefit hunting with some PVS29's and a civilian laser over a set of 14's with with a PEQ15.
Anyway, 15's really aren't that cool, the civilian stuff will basically do the same exact stuff.
You are really limited by what your NV will do anyway, not your laser. You will see a greater benefit hunting with some PVS29's and a civilian laser over a set of 14's with with a PEQ15.
I don't disagree that the present regulation is not particularly effective. Perhaps I did not choose my words well, but I think I've stated this issue well enough. Either the government has the authority to regulate or they don't. I'm inclined to say they indeed have a reasonable claim to be permitted to write regulations that cover these devices.
Note, they have not actually banned ownership. They have only created a system where it's not simple to obtain certain devices. While I'll also agree than in principle it's better to deal with a problem by punishing wrongdoers than it is trying to regulate a object, sometimes you are going to need a layered approach. In your example of a 600hp car, try getting a license issued to your F1 McLaren. A ban on private ownership of large quantities of pure U-235 seems pretty reasonable. Mass murder is already illegal, but I'm not sure that is enough to deal with your having a nuclear device in your garage.
It would seem that our single point of disagreement is just what power level of laser should be readily available. The prior rules that had a complete prohibition on any IR power level were certainly too restrictive. The current power levels don't seem unreasonable to me. If we agree that even LE has no practical use for a 25mw pointer, what's the problem? You have some unique requirement for it, build one, no one is stopping you.
It seems that the regulations have at least some effect, since people constantly complain they don't have one and can't get one. Since there are pretty reasonable substitutes, like LED's, what's the big deal about not getting a nice new PEQ-15? Perhaps not all of them are stolen, but the individuals that bought them on letterhead and then sold them are at least in breach of the sales agreement they signed, the devices are not 'legitimate' as far as the factory is concerned. I'm not going to advocate you buy an orphan device, and you pretty much don't have any way to tell it's NOT stolen.
So, it appears we only actually disagree on the amount of regulation, and the form that is 'reasonable'. That's a matter of opinion. We agree to disagree, I think what is currently in place is fine, you don't. It is, however the law. Don't like it? Get it changed. End of thread for me, but it's been interesting.
Note, they have not actually banned ownership. They have only created a system where it's not simple to obtain certain devices. While I'll also agree than in principle it's better to deal with a problem by punishing wrongdoers than it is trying to regulate a object, sometimes you are going to need a layered approach. In your example of a 600hp car, try getting a license issued to your F1 McLaren. A ban on private ownership of large quantities of pure U-235 seems pretty reasonable. Mass murder is already illegal, but I'm not sure that is enough to deal with your having a nuclear device in your garage.
It would seem that our single point of disagreement is just what power level of laser should be readily available. The prior rules that had a complete prohibition on any IR power level were certainly too restrictive. The current power levels don't seem unreasonable to me. If we agree that even LE has no practical use for a 25mw pointer, what's the problem? You have some unique requirement for it, build one, no one is stopping you.
It seems that the regulations have at least some effect, since people constantly complain they don't have one and can't get one. Since there are pretty reasonable substitutes, like LED's, what's the big deal about not getting a nice new PEQ-15? Perhaps not all of them are stolen, but the individuals that bought them on letterhead and then sold them are at least in breach of the sales agreement they signed, the devices are not 'legitimate' as far as the factory is concerned. I'm not going to advocate you buy an orphan device, and you pretty much don't have any way to tell it's NOT stolen.
So, it appears we only actually disagree on the amount of regulation, and the form that is 'reasonable'. That's a matter of opinion. We agree to disagree, I think what is currently in place is fine, you don't. It is, however the law. Don't like it? Get it changed. End of thread for me, but it's been interesting.
fair enough
LE may not have a practical use but i do like to shoot much further than 800 yards and my experience with the 27s is they will get you there by themselves on a decent night. but when conditions are average to poor, illum is required and none of the civilian stuff i've used will reach. solving the problem with laser illum is easy. but you can't just add power to the LED because it seems to leak so much that the air quality starts to matter as light is reflecting off dust and crap (pollen, etc) in the air near you and it really degrades the image, much like using too much light in a flashlight indoors.
if i could buy a PEQ15 i would but i am seriously not interested in stolen property.
LE may not have a practical use but i do like to shoot much further than 800 yards and my experience with the 27s is they will get you there by themselves on a decent night. but when conditions are average to poor, illum is required and none of the civilian stuff i've used will reach. solving the problem with laser illum is easy. but you can't just add power to the LED because it seems to leak so much that the air quality starts to matter as light is reflecting off dust and crap (pollen, etc) in the air near you and it really degrades the image, much like using too much light in a flashlight indoors.
if i could buy a PEQ15 i would but i am seriously not interested in stolen property.
not to be that guy, and i know its not like the God given Right to bear arms but there is a line in there somewhere. its the reasoning "its ok for them and not for me..." B.S. or even worse the "you should be happy with what we let you have" stuff is where i have a problem.
that being said im glad we can have this discussion but it would be easier when you dont go from something that does not harm anyone if its used properly (light beams) to tools of mass murder to make your point. im not going to buy stolen gear but IF i had a peq15 i bet it would not bother anyone near me as much as my neighbor having 500hp cars running Saturday morning.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson...
that being said im glad we can have this discussion but it would be easier when you dont go from something that does not harm anyone if its used properly (light beams) to tools of mass murder to make your point. im not going to buy stolen gear but IF i had a peq15 i bet it would not bother anyone near me as much as my neighbor having 500hp cars running Saturday morning.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson...
foreign sales
Restricted to US nationals,..perhaps.
Then the US Govt authorises sale to a dozen not so friendly foreign nations who don't give a flying fuck who they sell them on to.
Given that the technology is far from "new" or novel, others are quite capable of supplying products just as good commercially in any case.
Restricted to US nationals,..perhaps.
Then the US Govt authorises sale to a dozen not so friendly foreign nations who don't give a flying fuck who they sell them on to.
Given that the technology is far from "new" or novel, others are quite capable of supplying products just as good commercially in any case.
People act like PEQ15's are some kind of magical, laser, evil, death star, war machine etc, that will burn buildings to the ground or something. I think I first got one in 05 and it was real cool because it was smaller than a PEQ2 and tan. Given the choice I don't see why anyone would take a civilian legal model over the real deal. Just because you have the power doesn't mean you have to use it. The civilian ones are fine but I want to be able to light some shit up if I want to. Everyone can keep their civilian legal ones and I'll keep my evil, death star, war machine. Oh, and as stated above you don't have to steal one to get one.