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Little guns...

Terry Cross

Terry Cross

Dingleberry
Supporter
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2003
2,626
9,122
Alexandria, LA 71303
www.kmwlrs.com
I was probably a little biased toward longer barreled rifles, especially up to the 80's and 90's. Growing up with folks that said you needed a long barrel shotgun or rifle to make longer distance kills probably set the pace for my thinking.

Over the last 5 years, I have seen more and more agencies asking for barrels in the 18 to 22" range on .308 work rifles. Having them establish track records and getting solid feedback, I have to say I am somewhat of a convert.

These rifles are typically producing about the same velocity as their factory 26" barreled counterparts when using the same ammunition. Comments and feedback on handling and manipulation of the shorter rifles is very positive also.

Just shipped another group of rifles with similar specs and wanted to share the birth pictures of the piglets.
Photos aren't the best but we were in a hurry and the film in my Polaroid was old......

4-15-2011035a-1.jpg

Side profile of one of the 18.75" guns

4-15-2011039a-1.jpg

Front quarter profile of same.

4-15-2011031a-1.jpg

Group shot of the batch before these.

I will still stick with my 26" barrel .260 Rem and longer barreled magnums but the .308 and .223 stuff is pretty darned efficient in the shorter tubes.
 
Re: Little guns...

Those sentinel stocks are awesome. Got to love the picture of the whole group, looks like a unit will be set for a good while.
 
Re: Little guns...

I think this will help a few people here on the hide answer some of their questions about the shorter barrel guns! Looking forward to having one of your rifles.

A. LiMandri
 
Re: Little guns...

Anthony,
Had to come up for air and play on the internet.

Hardware for your job is partially completed already and going through a 6 week soak in a 55 gallon drum of granny's moonshine.

I got the idea from some AAA fuel funny car builders in the 70s that used to soak their freshly bored out blocks in a drum of nitro methane.

Be safe,
 
Re: Little guns...

Terry Cross said:
Anthony,
Hardware for your job is partially completed already and going through a 6 week soak in a 55 gallon drum of granny's moonshine.

I got the idea from some AAA fuel funny car builders in the 70s that used to soak their freshly bored out blocks in a drum of nitro methane.

Could you elaborate on this?
Click to expand...
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cp3head</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Terry Cross said:
Anthony,
Hardware for your job is partially completed already and going through a 6 week soak in a 55 gallon drum of granny's moonshine.

I got the idea from some AAA fuel funny car builders in the 70s that used to soak their freshly bored out blocks in a drum of nitro methane.

Could you elaborate on this? </div></div>

Are you serious?
Click to expand...
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tango__Down</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awesome looking rifles Terry. I'm sure they are shooters.

What's the specs on the rifles??? Especially barrel?

Stay safe </div></div>

All are Surgeon M591, Timney 710,
Krieger 1-11"/#14 Hvy Palma contour / Finished @ 18.75" and threaded 5/8-24
SENTINEL stock with Integrated Mounting Block and MUNSter N.V.mount.
Mirage 2 Tone Cerakote and NP3+ on bolt body, firing pin and cocking piece.
NXS 3.5-15 MLR/ZS/Mil-Rad sitting in 1.265" Ultra rings.
AAC Blackout for thread protector and flash suppression.
TAB sling and Harris SBRM with Pod-Loc.

Nothing special about the barrel other than the usual rich tasty Krieger goodness inside.

These have honestly been some of the best shooting rifles I've ever built.

P.S.: I see Robert built your .260. Congratulations on a great rifle. Robert is the bomb.

Be safe,
TC
 
Re: Little guns...

Some people cling to what they've been told about longer barrels despite concrete observations like yours. I guess it is the difference between carrying a rifle several miles and carrying a rifle to the bench...
 
Re: Little guns...

Perfect rifles as usual!

Does the MUNSter N.V. mount have a larger inside diameter than the badger EFR?

I also sent you some email about a couple other things.

Thanks.
 
Re: Little guns...

Terry, I have a short barreled 308 of yours. It finished at 19" plus the surefire brake. People on here freak out when I tell them I push the 155 scenar at over 2900. The little rifle is handy and it's a hammer.

It's always a pleasure to see pictures of your builds.
 
Re: Little guns...

Every time i see one of your rifles it literally makes me want to own one instantly. Seriously Terry, you make some incredibly beautiful rifles, i'm sure you know that though.

http://www.kmwlrs.com/SentinelRifle.htmOn this page at your site is the first picture of that particular sentinel build an 18" also? or is it around a 20/21"?
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anthony,
Had to come up for air and play on the internet.

Hardware for your job is partially completed already and going through a 6 week soak in a 55 gallon drum of granny's moonshine.

I got the idea from some AAA fuel funny car builders in the 70s that used to soak their freshly bored out blocks in a drum of nitro methane.

Be safe, </div></div>

Sounds delicous Terry lol.. Your a busy man especially lately! Hope all is well and I may be contacting you for another build. Just gotta figure out what my little heart desires.
 
Re: Little guns...

A few questions.

What's the total weight of that rifle with scope?

Any specific reason why the scope is not FFP?

If so, what?
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 468shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perfect rifles as usual!

Does the MUNSter N.V. mount have a larger inside diameter than the badger EFR?

</div></div>

I wish.

If you start doing the 3D on this type mount, you will see that there is a very limited width to work with on almost all of the A-Series stock forends. This sets the boundries for the exterior. Then you start trying to get enough material and structure into the sides so that your retaining screws hold the $10,000.00 NV unit on the gun no matter what. The result is almost always the same, about 1.200" dia.

This mount is very solid. It has shear lugs on the X and Y axis where the top structure meets the bottom base. The permanently installed base has a fish bone pattern that offers an ass load of surface contact with the stock material without shaving the inlet too thin down it's entire length.

While the MUNSter will work beautifully with McM A5 and such, it was built to integrate with the SENTINEL stock family. The bottom plates for the convertible bipod station bolt directly into the bottom of its lower unit.

The removable side accessory rails are pretty slick as they have 45 degree approach and departure angles to minimize snags.

I am at peace with the 1.2" bore as I am migrating away from humongous barrel diameters anyway. Even in 338 Lapua/Norma on XL actions, I have no issues getting very generous barrel contours through it.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every time i see one of your rifles it literally makes me want to own one instantly. Seriously Terry, you make some incredibly beautiful rifles, i'm sure you know that though.

http://www.kmwlrs.com/SentinelRifle.htmOn this page at your site is the first picture of that particular sentinel build an 18" also? or is it around a 20/21"? </div></div>

The first rifle on this page http://www.kmwlrs.com/SentinelRifle.htm
is a 21".

Thanks,
 
Re: Little guns...

Ok so pic 1, meh it's another nice rifle. Pic 2, it's a nice rifle, but it's just another nice rifle. Pic 3, holy fuck.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A few questions.

What's the total weight of that rifle with scope?

Any specific reason why the scope is not FFP?

If so, what? </div></div>

Answer 1: Total weight was around 16.5 pounds . . . guts, feathers and all.

Answer 2: Yes. Customer was not happy with the current offering of reticle scale and performance of the F1. The entire team got to racoon the F1 and other FFP. They feel that the reticle evolution is not quite there yet for their tastes.

Their average user is very, very proficient with the equipment. They nor I feel that they are hobbled by sticking with SFP. They are extremely comfortable and capable with the day optic as delivered.

There are going to be a few FFP game changers coming on line soon but my customer's time line could not handle stretching out delivery to evaluate what might be.
 
Re: Little guns...

I freaking hate this site...just when I get all content on sending my rifle off to be a M40A5 just like I want it...a thread like this comes up. These rifles look amazing.
 
Re: Little guns...

After shooting a KMW rifle at a LEO Sniper school I'm hook on it. I gotta get one of these stocks
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There are going to be a few FFP game changers coming on line soon but my customer's time line could not handle stretching out delivery to evaluate what might be. </div></div>


Pull pin......lob in grenade......

training-grenade-coloring-page.gif
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There are going to be a few FFP game changers coming on line soon but my customer's time line could not handle stretching out delivery to evaluate what might be. </div></div>


Pull pin......lob in grenade......

training-grenade-coloring-page.gif
</div></div>

Funny shit there

Coming from a guy that thinks sfp is not that big of a deal.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There are going to be a few FFP game changers coming on line soon but my customer's time line could not handle stretching out delivery to evaluate what might be. </div></div>
Pull pin......lob in grenade......

training-grenade-coloring-page.gif
</div></div>
I can virtually hear a thousand scope orders just being cancelled ...
eek.gif
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are going to be a few FFP game changers coming on line soon but my customer's time line could not handle stretching out delivery to evaluate what might be.</div></div>

I'm assuming this is top secret info that you would have to kill me after telling me? Does it help that I have a secret clearance???
 
Re: Little guns...

It's a new project from CounterSniper. Titanium housing and of course Bertrillium~Zantitium multicoated optics.

The big deal is that it will be a TFP (Third Focal Plane.) Basically the reticle is permanently implanted in your eye. Short Range reticle in the left eye and the Long Range reticle in your right. Then everywhere the shooter looks, he is already targeting everything just like the Borg on Star Trek.

6 prototypes were recently made and they worked so well on the raid in Pakistan that CounterSniper is making them available to us for the same price they sell to the SEALs.

I just don't know how I can pass this up.
 
Re: Little guns...

So your telling me Batman, Rambo, Master Chief, Lara Croft, John Mcclane and Kung Fu Panda all have reticles in their eyes. It all makes so much more since now....
 
Re: Little guns...

Terry, I cant tell you how much I love the rifle. It still has only one range day but it impressed all that day. Going to be working up a load for it probably next weekend. If you can cut loose and get down here, come shoot.

We shot this rifle next to a friends with a longer barrel and averaged about 50fps faster with the 21" with all types(168, 175 SMK & 178 superformance). Barrel quality most likely made the most difference.
KMW-1.jpg
 
Re: Little guns...

Terry,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I would prefer the strength over clearance as well.

CajunMarine,

That's a fine rifle! I fixed your pic:

KMW-1.jpg


Do you know what colors of cerakote those are by chance?
 
Re: Little guns...

Thanks. Im still trying to get it to work. I banged on the key board for a while but nothing happened.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a new project from CounterSniper. Titanium housing and of course Bertrillium~Zantitium multicoated optics.

The big deal is that it will be a TFP (Third Focal Plane.) Basically the reticle is permanently implanted in your eye. Short Range reticle in the left eye and the Long Range reticle in your right. Then everywhere the shooter looks, he is already targeting everything just like the Borg on Star Trek.

6 prototypes were recently made and they worked so well on the raid in Pakistan that CounterSniper is making them available to us for the same price they sell to the SEALs.

I just don't know how I can pass this up. </div></div>

LMAO!!!
 
Re: Little guns...

Had the opportunity a few years ago to use one of Mr. Cross's more traditional rifles with a 24" barrel. Ran it in comps and matches for a year to include an UKD match.

sweeeeeet

Almost didnt unborrow it.

Owner was rather insistent.

The eye reticle is old news, at first the spec on cant was like Leupold and no one was buying. I hear its been corrected. Cant wait for the Hide group buy.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a new project from CounterSniper. Titanium housing and of course Bertrillium~Zantitium multicoated optics.

The big deal is that it will be a TFP (Third Focal Plane.) Basically the reticle is permanently implanted in your eye. Short Range reticle in the left eye and the Long Range reticle in your right. Then everywhere the shooter looks, he is already targeting everything just like the Borg on Star Trek.

6 prototypes were recently made and they worked so well on the raid in Pakistan that CounterSniper is making them available to us for the same price they sell to the SEALs.

I just don't know how I can pass this up. </div></div>

wouldn't that be a ZFP (0th focal plane)??

Seriously though, what have been your experience shortening the 6.5 class like .260, creedmore, etc down to around 20ish inches?

thanks,
L_L
 
Re: Little guns...

Really some very nice looking firearms. Your web site should come with a warning to cover the keyboard so we don't drool on it. If I hit the lottery, I'm going to have you one in .223 and one in .338LM, and another 4 or 5 in between.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: loaders_loft</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously though, what have been your experience shortening the 6.5 class like .260, creedmore, etc down to around 20ish inches?
L_L</div></div>

I'm sure someone else can chime in and explain this better. But from what I understand the 6.5 isn't as efficient of a round as say the .308 at burning it's powder fast enough before the bullet leaves the barrel. So you need a longer barrel for the 6.5mm family to get a full powder burn. If your wanting competitive velocities in the 6.5 it's best to stay at 24"-26", I plan on building a .260 and will have a 24" since I am going to be running suppressed.
 
Re: Little guns...

Thanks for passing along what you have heard as far as the theory goes, what I'm searching for is someone with first hand experience on the matter. Do you have any to share?
 
Re: Little guns...

That is Terry Cross's first hand experience. I asked him the same question on the phone a few weeks ago. The reason for needing to stay in the 24"-26" range is to maintain 2900fps so I would still have good external ballistics @ 1000m. You didn't really say what you were wanting to do with the rifle. Because I'm sure a 20" .260 will still do great out to 500-600m, but it won't maintain the same speeds at 1000m.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a new project from CounterSniper. Titanium housing and of course Bertrillium~Zantitium multicoated optics.

The big deal is that it will be a TFP (Third Focal Plane.) Basically the reticle is permanently implanted in your eye. Short Range reticle in the left eye and the Long Range reticle in your right. Then everywhere the shooter looks, he is already targeting everything just like the Borg on Star Trek.

6 prototypes were recently made and they worked so well on the raid in Pakistan that CounterSniper is making them available to us for the same price they sell to the SEALs.

I just don't know how I can pass this up. </div></div>
The internal bubble level, and the laser rangefinding, auto wind adjusting, illuminated Horus Vision H-3000 reticle are extra. As is the ocular implanted, solar rechargeable D-cell battery pack.
 
Re: Little guns...

Loaders,

I have shot some of those 6.5s down to 18 inches. They are strong shooters and still outperform the .308Win. on drop and drift but not by the same margin as they do with longer barrels.... at least when comparing at equal pressures. I think that is important to keep in mind when you read about isolated rifles giving crazy numbers.

Roughly the same case capacity but smaller bore always makes for a less forgiving ratio. Pressure curves typically have to ramp up slower with the smaller bores. This usually means more penalty per inch of barrel lost as you shorten up.

While the .260 type cartridges still shoot sort of OK in short barrels, the entire reason most go with the 6.5s in the first place is for improvements in drop and drift. Why go in that direction and then chop the legs out from under its performance potential.

Prolly lots of more detailed info from others posted in the archives of this forum. Of course all of this is just my opinion and subject to change by next week.
 
Re: Little guns...

CajunMarine,

Thanks for the note and I'm glad the rifle has a good home. I appreciate you trusting me with your business. I also appreciate the invite to shoot and would love to take you up on it one day.

Good luck with all your ventures.
 
Re: Little guns...

What are you wanting to use the rifle for, what kind of distance you wanting to shoot at? You don't see too many short barreled .260's, but they'd hold their own. Those who are adopting the .260 do so for a ballistic edge and then chopping the barrel back past “practical” lengths (24” in this case) defeats the ballistic edge. For a short barrel rifle I say stick with the .308; which is why I have a 20" .308.
 
Re: Little guns...

I'd love to get one of those stocks.

You prove an interesting point in your statement in barrel lengths. Nowadays, folks are looking at getting the most out of the shortest length. One thing to factor in is the gap between the longer generation vs. the shorter generation. Todays precision rifles, especially the ones used in the field, are built to much higher specifications. The use of new, improved smithing tech creating tighter, straighter tolerances, stocks that offer much more solid platforms, materials that are hardly affected by environmental conditions all make toward a much more stable platform. Barrels are made with a higher quality then some 20+ years ago, which are straigher and contain less imperfections. The availibility of custom twists can help determine a barrels length. Scopes have come a long way as well offering tougher internals, tubes and clearer glass. Ammunition if made of a much better quality, as well as the handloads that folks custom taylor to their rifle. All these improvements are what allows for a person to utilize less in barrel length, since lenght is no longer a sole factor in accurately stabilizing a bullet.
 
Re: Little guns...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Loaders,

I have shot some of those 6.5s down to 18 inches. They are strong shooters and still outperform the .308Win. on drop and drift but not by the same margin as they do with longer barrels.... at least when comparing at equal pressures. I think that is important to keep in mind when you read about isolated rifles giving crazy numbers.

Roughly the same case capacity but smaller bore always makes for a less forgiving ratio. Pressure curves typically have to ramp up slower with the smaller bores. This usually means more penalty per inch of barrel lost as you shorten up.

While the .260 type cartridges still shoot sort of OK in short barrels, the entire reason most go with the 6.5s in the first place is for improvements in drop and drift. Why go in that direction and then chop the legs out from under its performance potential.

Prolly lots of more detailed info from others posted in the archives of this forum. Of course all of this is just my opinion and subject to change by next week.

</div></div>

Terry:
What do you think the optimal length for a 260/6.5-08 is for a "tactical competition rifle"? TIA
 
Re: Little guns...

I don't think there are hard lines of right and wrong answers to that.

I have a 26" barrel on mine and it will likely stay that way.

Each user should do their research, look hard at where and how they plan on using the rifle and then build accordingly without neutering the cartridge.
 
Re: Little guns...

Well, you know us engineers, given all available data we find it hard not to draw a hard line! Hope you and the family are doing well. BTW, I agree on the 26 inch length.
 
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