LMT MWS stainless Range Report 4/17 update- MWS is starting to shoot!

bm11

bm11

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 18, 2010
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Maine
#1
This is a continuation of my first and second range report thread, started here:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-stainless-first-range-trip-range-report.html
Range trip number three and the MWS is starting to show a bit of capability. It is still not shooting as tight as I would hope for, but I am hoping that once I tighten down and figure what handloads it likes, it will drop a quarter inch or so off the average. I'd be happy if the rifle would average sub .75 MOA.

What I did different today from the last time-
1- I removed the barrel AGAIN, and set the torque wrench on what I believe to be 140 in/lbs. Mine wasn't taped, nor was it set tight, ot just had a sticker on the handle that said it was calibrated to 140 in/lbs. I set it to what "should be" 140 in/lbs, but the way it was labeled makes it a little more unclear.
2- I tightened the levers on my Larue OBR mount to where it requires significantly more effort to remove/install the mount.
3- I brought factory Gold Medal Match (168) and TAP (168 AMAX) to try as these two are proven performers in just about any .308 with the potential to shoot.

Todays results were as follows:
20130417_103634_zpse9eaff0b.jpg

First group shot was with TAP, top left target. Measurement was 1.464". Not great, but it shows potential to group.
Second group shot was the top right target, also Hornady TAP. Measurement was .983".
Third group shot was the top left target on the bottom paper, ammo was FGMM. Measurement is .943".
Fourth group shot was the top right target on the bottom paper, FGMM. Measurement is 1.067".
The fifth group I shot was after my target board blew over. I shifted to a different stand, but it didn't hold the target steady. It was moving in the wkmd and I tried to time my shots either during constant gusts where it was maintaining position, or between gusts. Measurement was 1.701," but this target I feel is fair to discount as it doesn't really reflect the rifles performance on a stationary target. Shots 2-5 measure under an inch.

Overall, I'm glad the rifle turned out some sub moa performance, if just barely. I did have to focus on keeping constant rear pressure on the grip while pressing the trigger. It is definitely harder to shoot a semi than a bolt! At this point, at least the rifle is shooting MOA (even if the average is over.)

The question comes back to- am I better off keeping it and hoping that I can develop a load that averages .75 moa, or selling it to buy a rifle that will more easily do it?

I'll leave you with a fresh pic:
20130417_094232_zpsfa15f71b.jpg
 
#2
I have a 16 inch Cl with 210 rounds after shooting this yesterday. There were three types of ammo 1. CMP sourced Atomic 168 CC 2. Hornady 168 Amax - Zombie Max 3. 168 FGMM. Im not the best shot and still getting used to this rifle. It has more accuracy than anything else I own.

 
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#3
Is stick with the lmt. I'm not sure how long you've had the mws, but I was very frustrated with mine in the beginning due to sad groups. Turns out it was me all along, and now that I've got a bunch of rounds through it and shoot it correctly I get very good groups.

Your groups remind me of mine when I first started shooting the mws, 3-4 shots grouped together and then always one flier.
 
#4
m1ajunkie said:
Is stick with the lmt. I'm not sure how long you've had the mws, but I was very frustrated with mine in the beginning due to sad groups. Turns out it was me all along, and now that I've got a bunch of rounds through it and shoot it correctly I get very good groups.

Your groups remind me of mine when I first started shooting the mws, 3-4 shots grouped together and then always one flier.
Click to expand...
Entirely possible that its me. As you pointed out, one round opening up an otherwise tight group is more indicative of shooter induced error.
 
#6
Its a great rifle. Ive got limited time with it and Ive only fired it on my way home from work while rushed. Im looking forward to getting prone, locked in and with time to concentrate.

I think the OP will find the rifle to be everything he hoped.
 
#8
Are you loading at least 6 rds in the magazine during this outing?

As an aside, it took me about 3 weeks to settle in with a Semi Auto .308. It was all me preventing the final groups I was able to establish.
 
#9
im telling you bro and you're prob sick of me saying this, give it another 200 to 300 rounds for the "groups & LMT" to settle down and you'll be sub-moa in no time... combine that with ammo development and you'll be right as rain..... it really is a strange phenomenon with AR's and getting about 300 to 500 rounds down the tube for groups to settle down under sub-moa... stick with it and your rifle will turn out to be one bad ass shooter... we have all gone thru this, trust me on this. I wasn't kidding when I told you about this issue before you even shot the rifle. I'll prob get flamed by saying this, but I think you'll run into this regardless if it is LWRC, obr, or gap. This has been something ive been thru with all of my semi-auto rigs.

I have also tightened up my larue QD mounts to the point where it makes it really hard to QD them off. I forgot to mention this to ya.


Looking good so far. Just give it some more time.
 
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#10
mavrick10_2000 said:
Are you loading at least 6 rds in the magazine during this outing?

As an aside, it took me about 3 weeks to settle in with a Semi Auto .308. It was all me preventing the final groups I was able to establish.
Click to expand...

All except the group that measured 1.067". If you look at that group, the first shot was the high one, then three in a hole left of center, the last one flew right. I felt the different recoil impulse and sure as shit, I forgot to load my dummy round in.

As a side note- the dummy is looking beat to hell, and also dirty as hell! If not cleaning the barrel, I wonder if I should be cleaning the chamber between range session?
 
#11
elfster1234 said:
im telling you bro and you're prob sick of me saying this, give it another 200 to 300 rounds for the "groups & LMT" to settle down and you'll be sub-moa in no time... combine that with ammo development and you'll be right as rain..... it really is a strange phenomenon with AR's and getting about 300 to 500 rounds down the tube for groups to settle down under sub-moa... stick with it and your rifle will turn out to be one bad ass shooter... we have all gone thru this, trust me on this. I wasn't kidding when I told you about this issue before you even shot the rifle. I'll prob get flamed by saying this, but I think you'll run into this regardless if it is LWRC, obr, or gap. This has been something ive been thru with all of my semi-auto rigs.

I have also tightened up my larue QD mounts to the point where it makes it really hard to QD them off. I forgot to mention this to ya.


Looking good so far. Just give it some more time.
Click to expand...
I think, if nothing else, I should have a better feel for shooting this rifle by the time I get 300-500 through it. I'm up to 135 now.

I would be shooting a lot more if it weren't for a busy week at work. I have been sneaking to the range before work, but the earliest the rules allow for shooting is 9, so I only get an hour before I have to head out.

Its better than no shooting though. With luck, I'll make it back tomorrow. I should have time to throw together 20 or so handloads, and I'll bring some more factory ammo.
 
#12
I just do the chamber, feed ramps and BCG each time. I rarely touch the barrel until it starts to open up.

If I weren't shooting primarily suppressed I wouldn't probably need to do the BCG quite as often, maybe every 3rd trip or so.
 
#13
Elfster, I know this may be a loaded question, but did you watch the video that Tyler made of the GAP 10? I have had a few gas guns over the years with only one being a precision rifle and it was a shooter from day one. Now it was a custom built AR in 223 and it would honestly hold sub 3/4" with 1/2" being the norm (5 rounds @ 100). In the video Tyler made of the GAP 10 it seemed to be shooting right off the bat with sub 1/2 moa for 20 or 25 consecutive rounds (unless the video was edited to make it seem like it was shooting better than it was, not that i think that is the case). So with that being said my question is do you think this breaking in peroid is the norm from what you have seen? Also what do you think is actually breaking in? The only thing I can think of is the bolt and BCG wearing its self in for consistant lock up. I am just kinda intrested.
 
#14
There was no "break in" of my P308, it was more shooter break in, but the LMTs might need a little bit, it's not unheard of.

GAP10 Bartlein's are lapped uber smooth and clean as are most Rock Creek Barrels. My .260 shot great from day one but after 200 rounds the speed picked up a little and a bit tighter . My GAP10 in 6 creedmoor was practically a laser with almost any load I fed it but the recoil impulse is much less than a .308 so it was almost like an AR15 and changes things.

I can tell you in those 3 weeks of getting used to my P308 I fired less than 75 rounds. I spent time dry firing my butt off and focusing on the fundamentals. Occasionally I would pull out the bolt .308 and my groups had tightened up noticeably and then the semi groups followed shortly thereafter.

I also found that my P308 likes a little firmer grip on the pistol grip to keep the groups tight.
 
#16
about all I can say is this is from my own experience with 6 different semi-auto rigs in .223 and .308. I was careful to use the word "phenomenon" as there are too many variables IMO to consider to why groups tend to get better with a new SEMI-AUTO rifle after about 300 to 500 rounds. Not like I'm the only one here that is experienced this with a semi-auto rig. Now, if you get a new rifle and it is shooting 2 to 3 moa, then there is nothing that can fix that (if you have your rig set up correctly, other than different optic such as a red dot to high powered scope)........ If a rifle is fubar, then it is fubar. It needs to be fixed or move on to another rifle... There is not much you can do to bring a rifle down from 2.5moa down to .5moa BUT if you're shooting around 1moa (which IMO is acceptable for a SEMI AUTO new rifle) to maybe even 1.5moa with a new rifle (just like my LMT when I first got it and damn near every semi-auto rig I've owned), then for some damn reason groups will get better over time from that first round down the tube. Some people just need to get this whole "if my SEMI AUTO rifle isn't shooting .5moa on every single group then it is crap" stuff = BS!!! I'm sure it is a collection of things from copper fouling, maybe some rifle burs close to the crown, BCG parts breaking in effecting recoil impulse, factory ammo / reloading development (as we are playing around with gassers here and all),,,, and even the shooter getting used to running a semi-auto rig OR even getting used to that particular semi-auto rig recoil impulse. I'm really not sure, but I'm not the only one here that has stated this issue...... It is really hard to put a finger on it, hence the reason why I used the word phenomenon.

Now, for mavrick10_2000's point,,,,, comparing a 260 and 6creed to a .308 semi-auto is like comparing apples to oranges. If you want a true laser of a rifle and are not so concerned about availability of factory ammo and even reloading componets, then you should really look into a 6creed or 260 semi-auto rig. Do some rifles (even including cheaper DPMS and ROCK RIVER) come out of the gate kicking .5moa ass = YES! Have all of my own personal semi-auto rifles come out of the gate kicking .5moa ass = NO! Yes, you do get that quality control with GAP and OBR's. Now, I personally don't mind giving up a little accuracy for cheaper factory ammo, cheaper reloading components, and the availability of .308 brass / bullets (and yes, before you say anything I know you can re-size brass).... I don't want to waste time re-sizing brass and I want to know brass will always be there for me.... My 7.62 LMT is my DM battle rifle with a hint of precision rig. My LMT is a beast and a tank of a rifle that has never once FTF / FTE on me. The 30round, 6group, 5shot each, shoot thread that I ran is a testament to the awesomeness of the 260, 6creed, and hell even your standard .223/5.56 cartridges in comparison to the .308 / 7.62x51 cartridge.... As you can see during this thread the semi-auto .308's were fighting to stay on top and I was literally the only person left with a .308 semi-auto rig in the top ten. Even all other .308 KAC's, OBR's, and GAP's fell off the top ten list and all that was left was 260, .223/5.56, 6creeds, and myself with .308 / 7.62 LMT. ((( http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...0yard-semi-auto-6groups-30round-shootout.html ))) I think the BC and kick of the .308 cartridge obviously has something to do with this and is a no brainer, so comparing a .308 semi-auto rig to 260 and 6creed is not totally fair to be honest with you. Not saying my little fun and games "shoot-out" is the end all of questions, but it is not coincidence that the top ten ended up this way. I really think the "shoot out" thread was an eye opener for most. The main reason why I started it was I WAS SICK AND TIRED of people talking "I can shoot .5moa all day long with a semi-auto" BULLSHIT! If you can talk the talk, then walk the walk.... To this day, if I want to test the accuracy of a rifle, I'll run this 30round, 6group, 5shot, consecutive test at 100yards. I've always done it in the past and IMO was a reality check to many. As most of you know, it took a 260 cartridge to win the .5moa "shoots all day" long crown... Some came close to the .5moa crown,,,,,, but so many didn't including myself. ONLY ONE person was able to do this with a semi-auto and if you can prove me wrong, then submit your own entry. The thread is still up just for shits and giggles. I'll be the last person here to say I shoot .5moa all day long, but I might say I shoot .8moa all day long or even just sub-moa all day long.

I hope this answers your questions.



jbell said:
Elfster, I know this may be a loaded question, but did you watch the video that Tyler made of the GAP 10? I have had a few gas guns over the years with only one being a precision rifle and it was a shooter from day one. Now it was a custom built AR in 223 and it would honestly hold sub 3/4" with 1/2" being the norm (5 rounds @ 100). In the video Tyler made of the GAP 10 it seemed to be shooting right off the bat with sub 1/2 moa for 20 or 25 consecutive rounds (unless the video was edited to make it seem like it was shooting better than it was, not that i think that is the case). So with that being said my question is do you think this breaking in peroid is the norm from what you have seen? Also what do you think is actually breaking in? The only thing I can think of is the bolt and BCG wearing its self in for consistant lock up. I am just kinda intrested.
Click to expand...

mavrick10_2000 said:
There was no "break in" of my P308, it was more shooter break in, but the LMTs might need a little bit, it's not unheard of.

GAP10 Bartlein's are lapped uber smooth and clean as are most Rock Creek Barrels. My .260 shot great from day one but after 200 rounds the speed picked up a little and a bit tighter . My GAP10 in 6 creedmoor was practically a laser with almost any load I fed it but the recoil impulse is much less than a .308 so it was almost like an AR15 and changes things.

I can tell you in those 3 weeks of getting used to my P308 I fired less than 75 rounds. I spent time dry firing my butt off and focusing on the fundamentals. Occasionally I would pull out the bolt .308 and my groups had tightened up noticeably and then the semi groups followed shortly thereafter.

I also found that my P308 likes a little firmer grip on the pistol grip to keep the groups tight.
Click to expand...
 
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#19
Elfster, it does somewhat. Like I said I have little experience with precision gas guns (well other than some custom M1As, but that is a whole different ball of wax). I am looking forward to seeing BM11's rifle and putting a few rounds down range with it at some point. I have just never felt the need for a precision gas gun, but maybe one day... This thread and the predecessor has been a real eye opener for me, and sparked my intrest.
 
#20
4/18/13 mini update:

Made it to the range for a 50 round session this morning. I THINK the rifle and or me is starting to tighten up. I had a couppe of groups where the first three rounds would measure .3" or so, and then 3 and 4 would open it up.

I'm not going to go further into analysis at this point, just consider all the shooting to be good practice. I have some 175 SMK's now, provided by a good friend, and some m118lr and mk316 mod 0 on the way, courtesy of a couple other good friends.
 
#21
BM11,

Keep up the evaluation posts. I've followed the MWS since it's release including Elf's 5x6 thread. Your regimen is providing a rapid evaluation and is of interest to anybody considering one. Stay with it and keep letting us know the results.
 
#22
Quarter Horse said:
BM11,

Keep up the evaluation posts. I've followed the MWS since it's release including Elf's 5x6 thread. Your regimen is providing a rapid evaluation and is of interest to anybody considering one. Stay with it and keep letting us know the results.
Click to expand...

Will do! I'm heading back to the range on Sunday, and getting another experienced shooter into the mix, so it aught to be informative.
 
#23
just a side note.... this really goes for all rifles, bolt action and semi auto, BUT the REAL bane to shooting a precision semi-auto rig IMO is barrel heat build up.... obviously, you can go hog wild round after round shooting a semi-auto in comparison to a bolt action, but this is the quickest way to killing your group size. In my jerky fun and games 30round, 6group, 5shot precision test,,,, if you don't allow about 10seconds between shots,,,, and about 5min between groups,,, then you're group size will go all to hell by the last two groups... Just don't think about the time, and just take your time between shots... this leads me and you to this question, then why even get a semi-auto then??? because I have the option to unleash holy hell if I want or need to (especially with my RTS offset iron sights).... Most of the time when I'm at the range I'm just going to town and having a good time. Some of the best fun with my LMT is kicking it over on it's side and using the offset RTS iron sights, and then flipping it back over to see how I did thru my 16x scope!! But when it comes time to testing my precision rig for accuracy, then I'm taking my time and "not rushing it". Seriously tho, If I shoot round after round with only about 2 to 3 seconds between shots, and only about 1 min between groups, then don't expect to continue shooting sub-moa or close to it. It is really easy to get carried away shooting a semi auto rig. Now, as for the LMT it really only has a HBAR (heavy barrel) and is NOT a bull barrel. IMO, a bull barrel really really helps with obviously accuracy, but also combating the bane of barrel heat build up and killing your group sizes. My bull barrel EOP rock river does a wonderful job confronting this issue. IMO, if you're not worried about the weight of the rifle, and not worried about the availability of factory ammo and reloading components, and you want a laser of a rifle, then get a semi-auto with a bull barrel in either 260 or 6creed........ If you want something in more of a battle rifle set up and somewhat accurate with cheaper / more available factory ammo / reloading components, then IMO .308 / 7.62x51 is a great cartridge to fill this bill. One of the reasons why I got a bull barrel .223 / 5.56 rock river is it is stupid cheap to shoot, does a wonderful job against rapid fire precision shooting / barrel heat build up, and is crazy crazy accurate. One last note, you're kidding yourself if you're expecting bolt action accuracy out of a semi-auto regardless of brand manufacture. Let the GAP and OBR flaming begin!! yeah! LOL ;)

IMG_5964_zpsee4048c6.jpg


bm11 said:
4/18/13 mini update:

Made it to the range for a 50 round session this morning. I THINK the rifle and or me is starting to tighten up. I had a couppe of groups where the first three rounds would measure .3" or so, and then 3 and 4 would open it up.

I'm not going to go further into analysis at this point, just consider all the shooting to be good practice. I have some 175 SMK's now, provided by a good friend, and some m118lr and mk316 mod 0 on the way, courtesy of a couple other good friends.
Click to expand...
 
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