Load development help?

[богдан]

So im new ish to reloading. Working on a load for a old remington 700. How does this look for starting load and consistancy?
Its 56 grains tac hunter with 185 lapua scenar in an o6.

Im sure my technique needs alot of refining. But whats considered a good velocity and velocity spread in reloading? And any tips on accurate powder measuring.

 

[TSULLI]

Can you share some info on your process/components? The more info you give, the more info you will get in return. Also what is your goal for reloading for this rifle? Its an old 700 so hunting maybe? Or just to learn the reloading process/fun? What degree of precision are you looking for? For something like PRS/ELR an SD of 10 fps or less is usually the "go to" answer. The lower the better. I have certainly seen worse for a first attempt at reloading so you are on the right track. Your results aren't terrible. No one will be able to recommend where you can improve though if we don't know what you are doing to see these results.

 

[богдан]

New lapua brass
185 grn lap scenar
46 grain tac hunter
Hornandy trickler and a rcbs digital scale.
PRess is rcbs rock chucker with forster ultra micrometer die. Basically primed new lapua brass tricked 46 grains on counter and put in press to seat. I have 100 cases primed so itl be a minute before i have to tumble and size.
I really want a dillon 750. But for the really small volumes im currently tinkering with im cool with hand trickling. Just seems last .2 grains likes to be finiky sometimes.

 

[богдан]

For length i basically took the firing pin out of rifle and kept backing the bullet in until the bolt closed witbout any force. Wich puts coal at 3.38 ish off the top of my head.

 

[ShtrRdy]

What was the size of the group from those 7 shots? Maybe look at the closest 5 out of the 7.

 

[straightshooter1]

So im new ish to reloading. Working on a load for a old remington 700. How does this look for starting load and consistancy?
Its 56 grains tac hunter with 185 lapua scenar in an o6.
View attachment 8780884
Im sure my technique needs alot of refining. But whats considered a good velocity and velocity spread in reloading? And any tips on accurate powder measuring.

Yes, I'd say your reloading skills can use some work. I'd recommend focusing on your SD numbers as you evaluate whether you have something good or not, in terms of how well your reloading process is working. Given the tools you're using (and even with a Dillon 750) you should be able to do better than a 16.3 SD. You probably won't get into single digit SD's, but you should be able to do something in the area of 10-12, which can produce decent results on your targets. IMHO.

Your scale should be able to do better than staying within a .2 gr range when trickling. Make sure you RCBS digital scale isn't drifting on you and giving you reading that's not what you might think. It's something you should really keep an eye on and get you weights within .1 gr of each other.

Once you're fire formed your cases (when they been fired once and better when fired twice), your cases will be more consistent and that alone can improve your SD's a little.

For length i basically took the firing pin out of rifle and kept backing the bullet in until the bolt closed witbout any force. Wich puts coal at 3.38 ish off the top of my head.

Are you saying you're loading your cartridges to a COAL of 3.380 or that's the length where the bullet is touching the lands?

What length is the barrel?

I would suggest you run a pressure test. That's where you load some individual cartridges with powder weights in .3 gr increments to max amount. As you fire each from the lightest to the heavier, watch for pressure signs and stop when you see it. This way you know your limit for this particular gun with this bullet and powder.

 

[богдан]

Yes, I'd say your reloading skills can use some work. I'd recommend focusing on your SD numbers as you evaluate whether you have something good or not, in terms of how well your reloading process is working. Given the tools you're using (and even with a Dillon 750) you should be able to do better than a 16.3 SD. You probably won't get into since digit SD, but you should be able to do something in the area of 10-12, which can produce decent results on your targets. IMHO.

Your scale should be able to do better than staying within a .2 gr range when trickling. Make sure you RCBS digital scale isn't drifting to give you reading that are more than you might think. It's something you should really keep an eye on and get you weights within .1 gr of each other.

Once you're fire formed your cases (when they been fired once and better when fired twice), your cases will be more consistent and that alone can improve your SD's a little.


Are you saying you're loading your cartridges to a COAL of 3.380 or that's the length where the bullet is touching the lands?

What length is the barrel?

I would suggest you run a pressure test. That's where you load some individual cartridges with powder weights in .3 gr increments to max amount. As you fire each from the lightest to the heavier, watch for pressure signs and stop when you see it. This way you know your limit for this particular gun with this bullet and powder.

Its not the scale thats the issue its my fingers tend to overshoot by .1-2 then i have to get some out and go again. But i loaded all to 46grn according to the scale. I just need to practice being more precise.

3.38 is what im loading to. And i believe its just behing the lands as i dont get a mark on. The bullet and the bolt closes without force ( with firing pin and extractor removed) there abouts.
Its a 22 in barreled rem700bdl from 1978

Hodgdon says max is 58.2 for the powder.
But im also not inclined to try to max out velocity. A consistant 2700fps would be good enough for me i think for shooting at most distances. Im more interested in getting as good a group as i can velocity and pressure isnt my main goal.

That said. I do plan on putting a 25 in barrel with a #5125 lothar walther contour ( its going to be krieger but i like those dimensions) and blueprint action and pillar snd glass bed sometime before next years hunting season. So ill have to redo the process. But im approaching this as a learning experiment. And i appreciate all the help you guys have given me and continue to do so.


As to the photo ill have to get it monday afternoon as i have a 24 hr shift tomorrow and i work pt monday.

 

[straightshooter1]

Its not the scale thats the issue its my fingers tend to overshoot by .1-2 then i have to get some out and go again.

Here's a trick you might find useful with that Hornady trickler you're using:

Get a large diameter clear drinking straw and cut 1" inch off. Press that 1" piece of straw onto the trickler tube ~1/4". This clear piece of straw makes it easy to see how many granules of powder are about to drop into your powder pan, making it easier to control. In addition, rather than setting the trickler flat on the surface, you my put a piece of folded paper under the front to give it a little tilt and reduce the flow coming out of the tricker's tube. Then, with all this, rather than turning the the tube to move the powder out, use your finder to tap (vibrate) the tube where you can actually control it dropping a single granule that you see coming to the end of the straw. This is the method that's worked really well when I'm using my manual tricker like yours.

But i loaded all to 46grn according to the scale. I just need to practice being more precise.

Hmmm??? Are you loading 56grs like you said in your OP or is it 46 grs? If you're actually loading at 46 grs for an -06, the fill for those cases are too low. 56 grs sounds much better, especially as you've stated that you saw a published max at 58.2 grs.

3.38 is what im loading to. And i believe its just behing the lands as i dont get a mark on. The bullet and the bolt closes without force ( with firing pin and extractor removed) there abouts.

Hmmm??? It doesn't sound like you found where the lands is, where you know how far off the lands you're at. If this 3.380 is right at the lands, as you suggest, then that's increasing your start pressure by quite a bit to where you're probably at or a little over pressure using 56 grs, which your chrono velocities suggest to me.

It's ok to be close to the lands, just be aware that an increase of start pressure can skew your velocity comparison to published load data. And as the throat erodes, that's going to cause the velocity do decrease sooner than you think.

Its a 22 in barreled rem700bdl from 1978

Hodgdon says max is 58.2 for the powder.
But im also not inclined to try to max out velocity. A consistant 2700fps would be good enough for me i think for shooting at most distances. Im more interested in getting as good a group as i can velocity and pressure isnt my main goal.

With the info you're providing, that 2700 fps out of a 22" barrel with that round sound like you're already pushing max pressure.

That said. I do plan on putting a 25 in barrel with a #5125 lothar walther contour ( its going to be krieger but i like those dimensions) and blueprint action and pillar snd glass bed sometime before next years hunting season. So ill have to redo the process. But im approaching this as a learning experiment. And i appreciate all the help you guys have given me and continue to do so.


As to the photo ill have to get it monday afternoon as i have a 24 hr shift tomorrow and i work pt monday.

A Krieger 25" barrel sounds like a nice project.

 

[богдан]

Here's a trick you might find useful with that Hornady trickler you're using:

Get a large diameter clear drinking straw and cut 1" inch off. Press that 1" piece of straw onto the trickler tube ~1/4". This clear piece of straw makes it easy to see how many granules of powder are about to drop into your powder pan, making it easier to control. In addition, rather than setting the trickler flat on the surface, you my put a piece of folded paper under the front to give it a little tilt and reduce the flow coming out of the tricker's tube. Then, with all this, rather than turning the the tube to move the powder out, use your finder to tap (vibrate) the tube where you can actually control it dropping a single granule that you see coming to the end of the straw. This is the method that's worked really well when I'm using my manual tricker like yours.


Hmmm??? Are you loading 56grs like you said in your OP or is it 46 grs? If you're actually loading at 46 grs for an -06, the fill for those cases are too low. 56 grs sounds much better, especially as you've stated that you saw a published max at 58.2 grs.


Hmmm??? It doesn't sound like you found where the lands is, where you know how far off the lands you're at. If this 3.380 is right at the lands, as you suggest, then that's increasing your start pressure by quite a bit to where you're probably at or a little over pressure using 56 grs, which your chrono velocities suggest to me.

It's ok to be close to the lands, just be aware that an increase of start pressure can skew your velocity comparison to published load data. And as the throat erodes, that's going to cause the velocity do decrease sooner than you think.


With the info you're providing, that 2700 fps out of a 22" barrel with that round sound like you're already pushing max pressure.


A Krieger 25" barrel sounds like a nice project.

I fat fingered the number its 56.

How does seating depth affect start pressure.

 

[SNB]

How does seating depth affect start pressure.

When selecting a powder charge, you should avoid placing the bullet in the rifling if you have little experience. Then, with experience, you will get an understanding of how this system behaves.
Which is essentially a combustion chamber. And like any combustion chamber, when the volume decreases, the pressure will increase to a certain extent, provided that other parameters remain unchanged.
Although the thermodynamics of the process is not linear.
It is better to download some kind of reloading program, Quick Load or GTR, or even here on the forum there is a simpler and more user-friendly online one.

New Web-Based Interior Ballistics Calculator – Precise Load

Hey everyone, I’m Benedikt, a reloader from Germany, and over the past 1.5 years, I’ve been developing https://preciseload.com as a spare-time project. Precise Load is a web-based interior ballistics calculator, similar to QuickLOAD and GRT, but it runs directly in your browser—no installation...

www.snipershide.com

PS. Можу пояснити українською в PM.

 

[богдан]

When selecting a powder charge, you should avoid placing the bullet in the rifling if you have little experience. Then, with experience, you will get an understanding of how this system behaves.
Which is essentially a combustion chamber. And like any combustion chamber, when the volume decreases, the pressure will increase to a certain extent, provided that other parameters remain unchanged.
Although the thermodynamics of the process is not linear.
It is better to download some kind of reloading program, Quick Load or GTR, or even here on the forum there is a simpler and more user-friendly online one.

New Web-Based Interior Ballistics Calculator – Precise Load

Hey everyone, I’m Benedikt, a reloader from Germany, and over the past 1.5 years, I’ve been developing https://preciseload.com as a spare-time project. Precise Load is a web-based interior ballistics calculator, similar to QuickLOAD and GRT, but it runs directly in your browser—no installation...

www.snipershide.com

PS. Можу пояснити українською в PM.

Would you recomend starting out just loading to coal of sami specs?

 

[SNB]

Would you recomend starting out just loading to coal of sami specs?

Yes. This is the easiest way for a safe start. It is also advisable to measure not the COAL but the СBTO using a comparator.

 

[богдан]

Here's a trick you might find useful with that Hornady trickler you're using:

Get a large diameter clear drinking straw and cut 1" inch off. Press that 1" piece of straw onto the trickler tube ~1/4". This clear piece of straw makes it easy to see how many granules of powder are about to drop into your powder pan, making it easier to control. In addition, rather than setting the trickler flat on the surface, you my put a piece of folded paper under the front to give it a little tilt and reduce the flow coming out of the tricker's tube. Then, with all this, rather than turning the the tube to move the powder out, use your finder to tap (vibrate) the tube where you can actually control it dropping a single granule that you see coming to the end of the straw. This is the method that's worked really well when I'm using my manual tricker like yours.


Hmmm??? Are you loading 56grs like you said in your OP or is it 46 grs? If you're actually loading at 46 grs for an -06, the fill for those cases are too low. 56 grs sounds much better, especially as you've stated that you saw a published max at 58.2 grs.


Hmmm??? It doesn't sound like you found where the lands is, where you know how far off the lands you're at. If this 3.380 is right at the lands, as you suggest, then that's increasing your start pressure by quite a bit to where you're probably at or a little over pressure using 56 grs, which your chrono velocities suggest to me.

It's ok to be close to the lands, just be aware that an increase of start pressure can skew your velocity comparison to published load data. And as the throat erodes, that's going to cause the velocity do decrease sooner than you think.


With the info you're providing, that 2700 fps out of a 22" barrel with that round sound like you're already pushing max pressure.


A Krieger 25" barrel sounds like a nice project.

Im thinking a blank that starts at .9 and tapers to .7 would add a little more mass like a pound ish and make the recoil impulse super smooth

Yes. This is the easiest way for a safe start. It is also advisable to measure not the COAL but the СBTO using a comparator.

I have the adaptor dor that but not sure what the measurment should be?

 

[SNB]

Im thinking a blank that starts at .9 and tapers to .7 would add a little more mass like a pound ish and make the recoil impulse super smooth

I have the adaptor dor that but not sure what the measurment should be?

Make a cartridge with dimensions according to the SAAMI specification, then use the comparator insert to measure the CBTO of this cartridge and take it as the starting point.

 

[Doom]

First off before offering any comments you need to tell us what game you plan on hunting and what distance. You are proposing a hunting load but using a target bullet. Not the best choice, especially at longer distances.

 

[богдан]

First off before offering any comments you need to tell us what game you plan on hunting and what distance. You are proposing a hunting load but using a target bullet. Not the best choice, especially at longer distances.sce

right now im focusing on grouping and punching paper. Its going to be my practice load. And to see what its max potential is.

For this year ill just zero something from the store prolly some 178 grn eldx
Deer round here are sub 130m so easy shots even with irons.
For longer hunts probably berger vld but elk hunts prolly 3-5 years out so i have alot of time to work up a load for it. Esp since im replacing the barrel next year sometime.

 

[straightshooter1]

I fat fingered the number its 56.

How does seating depth affect start pressure.

I'd say the two primary things that causes seating depth to affect pressure is case volume and blowby. The further you seat a bullet into the case you reduce the volume inside the case affecting how the powder burns. Like, the tighter the space the more energetic the powder burns. Then there's blowby, where the bullet begins to move and the case mouth expands and the gases push by the bullet into the chamber and bore. When the bullet become fully engraved the pressure of the gases rises quickly and eventually pushes the bullet more through the bore. Changing the seating depth, changes that volume for the gases to expand into when that bullet become fully engraved. The best illustration of that relationship for seating depth vs. pressure I've seen is in this graph from a college study of it back in the 1960's:

 

[CanMike]

That’s a very high spread for a 7 shot group. I would focus more on making sure each load is consistent before focusing on enhancing specific steps.

If this was virgin brass did you resize or use straight out of box? If you don’t uniform the necks and get rid of any dents that would explain the speed.

Mike

 

[богдан]

That’s a very high spread for a 7 shot group. I would focus more on making sure each load is consistent before focusing on enhancing specific steps.

If this was virgin brass did you resize or use straight out of box? If you don’t uniform the necks and get rid of any dents that would explain the speed.

Mike

Lapua out of the box. There were no dents that I could see.
But on the topic of brass. Now thats its once fired shouldnt it be a better fit for the chamber? Would you still recomend full length size?

 

[straightshooter1]

Lapua out of the box. There were no dents that I could see.

Yeah, apparently, that's why Lapua went to the new paper packaging. And there's now one less case in the package than before.

But on the topic of brass. Now thats its once fired shouldnt it be a better fit for the chamber? Would you still recomend full length size?

You may not need to FL size yet. Try chambering a few of those fired cases without sizing to see if they're still chamber without any problem. If so, go ahead and load them up as the second firing should finish off the fire forming to give you really consistent case dimensions. Then when you FL size after each firing, bumping the shoulders back should be more consistent.

Though, I do typically FL size after the first firing and turn the necks to a consistent thickness.

 

[богдан]

Yeah, apparently, that's why Lapua went to the new paper packaging. And there's now one less case in the package than before.


You may not need to FL size yet. Try chambering a few of those fired cases without sizing to see if they're still chamber without any problem. If so, go ahead and load them up as the second firing should finish off the fire forming to give you really consistent case dimensions. Then when you FL size after each firing, bumping the shoulders back should be more consistent.

Though, I do typically FL size after the first firing and turn the necks to a consistent thickness.

How does the trimming process work vs full length sizing?

 

[Jingoist]

How does the trimming process work vs full length sizing?

One follows the other; if you are FL sizing your brass, you would trim after that, of course.

For new brass, I merely trim (and champfer/deburr at the same time), tumble for 30 minutes in dry media, and load...and I never do load real development on virgin cases.

That ES is off the charts for only 7 rounds (SD twice were it should be, also) and will only get worse when you sample 20-30 rounds. You could shoot a 1/2 MOA with that load at 100, but that crap will fall apart when you start to stretch your legs.

You said old Remington. Any idea how many rounds on that barrel and did you take a borescope to it to ensure good to go?

I ask, as it's changes in pressure that are driving that extreme ES and if you are sure your trickles are all a few kernels of one another and holding all else constant (consistent seating depths, real important in this case), I would look at the barrel.

Probably worth fully processing some (FL size, mandrel, trim...) and see if you get similar results.

 

[Jingoist]

Also, was shot #1 on a CLEAN, cold bore and it took you 4-5 more to get up to normal speed? Be interesting to see the 7 shot string and if each subsequent round was faster than the previous...

 

[богдан]

One follows the other; if you are FL sizing your brass, you would trim after that, of course.

For new brass, I merely trim (and champfer/deburr at the same time), tumble for 30 minutes in dry media, and load...and I never do load real development on virgin cases.

That ES is off the charts for only 7 rounds (SD twice were it should be, also) and will only get worse when you sample 20-30 rounds. You could shoot a 1/2 MOA with that load at 100, but that crap will fall apart when you start to stretch your legs.

You said old Remington. Any idea how many rounds on that barrel and did you take a borescope to it to ensure good to go?

I ask, as it's changes in pressure that are driving that extreme ES and if you are sure your trickles are all a few kernels of one another and holding all else constant (consistent seating depths, real important in this case), I would look at the barrel.

Probably worth fully processing some (FL size, mandrel, trim...) and see if you get similar results.

If its had 2 boxes of ammo a year through it that would put it at 1880. If more was shot then higher. It has the original barrel from 1978. Thats why next year im looking to rebarrel it. And while the barrels off bluebring the action and glass, pillar bed and free float.

For this year i dont plan to shoot beyond 200m
As for the weight. It was 56 on the scale even. But its a simple rcbs digital scale.

 

[богдан]

Also, was shot #1 on a CLEAN, cold bore and it took you 4-5 more to get up to normal speed? Be interesting to see the 7 shot string and if each subsequent round was faster than the previous...

Yes 1st was a cold bore shot on clean barrel.

1. 2682.4
2. 2659.4
3. 2687.9
4. 2668.0
5. 2656.0
6. 2706.6
7. 2679

How consistant would a rcbs chsrgemaster lighg or chargemaster be? If i budfeted for one in near future. Or do yall have other recomendations for powder dispensing?

 

[straightshooter1]

How does the trimming process work vs full length sizing?

Hmmm??? I'm not sure if you're confused about "turning" vs "trimming"???

When you FL size brass, you're compressing it into itself, much like squeezing a hand full of clay, it move in the direction of least resistance. So, the cases become a little longer. They don't always need trimming as there's typically enough tolerance built into the chamber to allow for some growth in length. Eventually, you'll need to trim the cases to a length to avoid the mouth of the case being squeezed against the bullet as the cartridge is chambered. Trimming after every firing provide more consistent release of the bullet and consistent "neck tension".

If you're referring to my "turning" of the necks for consistent neck thickness, that's simply a matter of shaving off the thickness high spots that necks typically have. Usually, this can be as a one time operation done early in the first stages of brass prep. Consistent neck thickness promotes even interference ("neck tension") and lower TIR's (Total Indicated Runouts). Lapua brass is pretty good about not having neck thickness's vary much and many reloaders don't bother as they can do well without turning necks for their "no-turn chambers" like you have. If a shooter has a particularly tight chamber, like some custom barrels are, then it's a must to turn the necks just to be able to chamber a cartridge and have enough clearance.