Load development sucks...

[vinniedelpino]

I'm getting into a new rifle in a new caliber. I've been through the process of load development before, and it's not my favorite part of the sport. Buying a bunch of different powders and projectiles that wind up sitting on the shelf isn't my favorite way to tie up cash. It's not so bad working up a load for a .223 or .308. Worst case, feed it to a hungry gas gun or save it for a friend that needs to work up a load for their rifle down the road. My shooting buddies only shoot black guns with as much Chinese made shit hanging on them as they can fit.

I was looking at the copper creek load development packs, but at $3 a round for 75 rounds, plus having to buy a couple more boxes of the load (when you find it) to get the recipe doesn't seem much more attractive.

Is there a solution I'm missing? What do you guys do to make load development more economical and palatable? Just sell an assortment of half used boxes of bullets on the exchange when you figure out what works? Or keep your rifles the same caliber and save the components for future load development? I'm married with four kids. Braces are coming next year and the wife likes to travel, so I pinch pennies and try to make the most of my leisure time.

 

[6.5SH]

Modern Day Sniper

moderndayrifleman.com

Listen to the Mark Gordon interview today while it is still available

 

[Precision Underground]

If you have a quality build you can pretty much decide what bullet you want to shoot and then pick the typical powder guys use with it. I never buy a lot of different stuff. There’s no need to try a bunch of different stuff usually. They’ll all shoot good if the rifle is good.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here is very fast and efficient way which requires very little trial and error. As long as it isn’t some brand new or rare wildcat:

Research online the common powder and bullet (use berger if possible). And primer. You can do a primer test if you want. But for steel, just go with what most use (currently it’s use what you can find though).

Take the charge weight area where most people use and go up and down a grain and in .2 or .3 increments. 3 or 5 shot strings. Do this with bullets jumped .020 or so.

Shoot over a chrono into a berm. Use chrono numbers to find the powder node via velocity and ES. Pick your powder charge weight in the middle of the node. Or on low side summer and high in winter.

Do a seating depth test with .003 .005, or .010 increments. Whatever you prefer and feel is best (varying opinions on this).

Load on long side of the seating node you find

Done. It’s very quick, easy, and two range trips at the most if you break it down this way.

 

[Dthomas3523]

There’s almost zero need to experiment with different bullets and powder if you are running a common caliber.

For example, you will absolutely be able to make a 6.5cm shoot with 4350 and any of the berger bullets. You don’t need to find “what the gun likes.” If you can’t make it shoot, it’s you or the barrel is trash.

Same with any BR case variant and varget or n150 and Bergers

6x47 with varget and Bergers

308, varget Bergers

6cm 4350 Bergers

Many will work with 4350 and 4895 and n150/550 stuff.

The days of trying everything under the sun are over unless something rare.

 

[vinniedelpino]

Sweet... I've honestly never had an aftermarket barrel before on a bolt gun. I've been shooting mostly gas guns with standard chambers and the bullet has always been a part of finding a good load. If this goes well I'll be happy as a clam. New barrel is a run of the mill 6.5 prc chamber. I have some RL26, so I'll probably try to find some H1000 and 147's and go from there.

Thanks!

 

[hafejd30]

Here is very fast and efficient way which requires very little trial and error. As long as it isn’t some brand new or rare wildcat:

Research online the common powder and bullet (use berger if possible). And primer. You can do a primer test if you want. But for steel, just go with what most use (currently it’s use what you can find though).

Take the charge weight area where most people use and go up and down a grain and in .2 or .3 increments. 3 or 5 shot strings. Do this with bullets jumped .020 or so.

Shoot over a chrono into a berm. Use chrono numbers to find the powder node via velocity and ES. Pick your powder charge weight in the middle of the node. Or on low side summer and high in winter.

Do a seating depth test with .003 .005, or .010 increments. Whatever you prefer and feel is best (varying opinions on this).

Load on long side of the seating node you find

Done. It’s very quick, easy, and two range trips at the most if you break it down this way.

Good advice here ^

I usually go with Lapua brass so that’s g2g

I always go with CCI primers 200/250/450/BR2 etc depending on caliber

I use bullets that generally work good. Berger, Sierra SMK, Hornady ELDX for hunting

I use powder for the caliber that is most common in use- 6.5/260/300 WM is H4350 for me so always have it on hand. H1000 is another 300 WM go to. 308 is Varget or my preference IMR 4064. H4831SC in 284

I start .020” off the lands unless it’s a Berger that is known to like to play closer or in the lands

Maybe it’s just from experience in loading but I generally know what combo I’ll be running before I even finish the rifle. Certain combos just work

Then do as suggested above and play with the charges and seating depth over a chrono and on the target to tell you what it likes

Biggest thing is same brand/lots of bullets, brass, powder etc through the testing process. If it’s a comp gun I run initial tests on virgin brass and run the final tests on once fired brass run through my process exactly as it would be when loading for a competition in the future

 

[CxAgent]

@Dthomas3523

Quick question how many rounds per charge weight do you use to find the powder node?

 

[hafejd30]

Sweet... I've honestly never had an aftermarket barrel before on a bolt gun. I've been shooting mostly gas guns with standard chambers and the bullet has always been a part of finding a good load. If this goes well I'll be happy as a clam. New barrel is a run of the mill 6.5 prc chamber. I have some RL26, so I'll probably try to find some H1000 and 147's and go from there.

Thanks!

If you list your barrel twist and components on hand someone can probably provide you with a starting point to get you close. Lots of information on this site if your patient

 

[phlegethon]

You can probably extract 85% of the performance of your rifle, if you are using a modern hybrid type bullet, by picking a powder charge at 90% of book max and seating it at 0.070 off the lands. Done. We all obsess over doing all the stuff and most of it has no statistical validity. If your barrel wants to shoot, it will. And if you are shooting PRS then the difference between the perfect load and the above is going to be lost in the wobble zone 99% of the time.

 

[vinniedelpino]

If you list your barrel twist and components on hand someone can probably provide you with a starting point to get you close. Lots of information on this site if your patient

The only powder I have that would be suitable is RL-26. No magnum primers, but I have CCI and federal large rifle. I was looking to use them over the mags anyway. No bullets in 6.5 whatsoever.

Barrel is 8 twist, so I was planning to stay at the 147's and below. It's on a short action origin in an AICS chassis. I'd have preferred a LA for the PRC, but i'm going to wind up swapping the bolt head and moving to a 6mm next year now that I found a one mile range that lets you shoot with your kids for free when you're a member.

 

[Dogtown]

Quick question how many rounds per charge weight do you use to find the powder node?

When you're trying to find the right node, you only need to load one round per charge weight increment.

The idea is that you load up a group with small consistent increases, then look at the velocities generated by each. You can recognize a node when the velocities start to setting for a range of different powder weights.

For example, let's say I shoot the following:

39.0gr	2750fps
39.2gr	2766fps
39.4gr	2774fps
39.6gr	2788fps
39.8gr	2789fps
40.0gr	2791fps
40.2gr	2793fps
40.4gr	2805fps
40.6gr	2818fps
40.8gr	2825fps

NOTE: it really helps to graph the velocity values in a spreadsheet so you can visualize the nodes as flat portions of the curve, or local min/max)

So if you look at the complete string, you see that as the charge weight increases, so does the velocity. But the Delta (rate of change) varies in some areas. The key here is that starting at 39.6gr and going to 40.2gr there's not a whole lots of change. This is a stable velocity node and ideally you want to be able to identify these in your data and then try loading somewhere in the middle of one of those nodes and then shoot for groups.

Then the next thing is to load up 3 or 5 shot strings within that range. So five @ 39.8gr and five @ 40.0gr (and maybe some at 39.6 & 40.2, depending on how granular you want to be). Now pick the charge weight that shoots the best group.

You can leave it at that, but if you want to finesse things a bit further you should take that load that groups well and load up some more 5-shot strings at different seating depths and see if any groups improve.

Lastly, you can go even further testing groups with variations in neck tension as well.

 

[Powder_Burns]

I think midsouth shooters supply sells a few sample packs of bullets if you wanted to test a few different projectiles, but I think having only 10-30 bullets to try might be a waste of time/money/effort if you don’t have charge weights pre-determined.
As far as powder, you can narrow that down fast by looking at published max charge weight/velocity/pressure data.
Last go around with load development, I already had 2 projectiles and 1 powder picked out before I even touched my dies.
Shooting a few different factory loads will give you a hint of what the barrel likes, go from there.

 

[phlegethon]

When you're trying to find the right node, you only need to load one round per charge weight increment.

This is a total waste of time. Nearly all "flat spots" observed with this will just be random noise. Even Satterlee doesn't do this or recommend it anymore.

 

[db2000]

Sweet... I've honestly never had an aftermarket barrel before on a bolt gun. I've been shooting mostly gas guns with standard chambers and the bullet has always been a part of finding a good load. If this goes well I'll be happy as a clam. New barrel is a run of the mill 6.5 prc chamber. I have some RL26, so I'll probably try to find some H1000 and 147's and go from there.

Thanks!

I've got a bunch of data on here with 6.5 PRC. RL 26 is my go to now because of velocity and accuracy but I've fiddled with 4831, RL22, RL 23 and a lot of various bullets. Mostly for hobby and my own research chasing ragged holes. Search 6.5 PRC and there's lot.
My advice is be cautious with Hornady 147's as they come apart around 50-100 yrds out sometimes. I'm currently using the Berger 156 EOL's.

 

[Dthomas3523]

@Dthomas3523

Quick question how many rounds per charge weight do you use to find the powder node?

I use 3 or 5. 3 if doing a very wide range of charges and 5 if doing smaller. But when doing load development I’m very meticulous at making sure every round is done the same except powder or seating (depending which I’m testing).

I do spot checks when loading hundreds of match rounds. But on load development I check every round for shoulder, neck, seating pressure, etc etc.

 

[vinniedelpino]

I've got a bunch of data on here with 6.5 PRC. RL 26 is my go to now because of velocity and accuracy but I've fiddled with 4831, RL22, RL 23 and a lot of various bullets. Mostly for hobby and my own research chasing ragged holes. Search 6.5 PRC and there's lot.
My advice is be cautious with Hornady 147's as they come apart around 50-100 yrds out sometimes. I'm currently using the Berger 156 EOL's.

I read about this but assumed guys were running them super hot with a poor choice of twist rate for the bullet. In hindsight, I'm thinking I should have gone with a faster twist rate since the 153.5's seem to be in stock everywhere. I might give them a shot anyway. Might turn the short action into a single shot though.

 

[Dthomas3523]

@Dthomas3523

Quick question how many rounds per charge weight do you use to find the powder node?

There is also a small chance of random variance even when I’m checking everything. So I just keep and eye on the load I chose when I chrono it every so often. If it starts to get wonky, I revisit. But that is rare.

 

[Dogtown]

This is a total waste of time. Nearly all "flat spots" observed with this will just be random noise. Even Satterlee doesn't do this or recommend it anymore.

Oh I get that; it would be much better to shoot strings for each charge weight and then compare ES, but then we're back to square one loading up 50 rounds and essentially shooting groups old-school style. No doubt that has always worked, but I wouldn't discount the abbreviated method for quickly getting you into the ballpark. I find that shooting a 20-shot range of finer increments works more reliably than the 10-round method, but yes, there will always been noise in each plot on the curve and it's just a matter of minimizing that to a reasonable level.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Oh I get that; it would be much better to shoot strings for each charge weight and then compare ES, but then we're back to square one loading up 50 rounds and essentially shooting groups old-school style. No doubt that has always worked, but I wouldn't discount the abbreviated method for quickly getting you into the ballpark. I find that shooting a 20-shot range of finer increments works more reliably than the 10-round method, but yes, there will always been noise in each plot on the curve and it's just a matter of minimizing that to a reasonable level.

You don’t need to “get in the ballpark” as there is a massive amount of data online that will already get you in the ballpark.

 

[louu]

Ok I give up. I search the internet for a while but got all kinds of different weird answers....

What do you guys mean by node?

 

[Dogtown]

A node is where the velocity stabilizes and you're more likely to get better accuracy. If you shoot groups across a whole bunch of different weights, and as long as you keep your loads reasonably consistent, then you'll see a pattern emerge where a series won't group all that well, then they'll start to group nicely, then back to not so well. The velocity node is that zone where the loads are grouping well. It's generally believed to be a result of the periodic nature of barrel harmonics.

 

[louu]

A node is where the velocity stabilizes and you're more likely to get better accuracy. If you shoot groups across a whole bunch of different weights, and as long as you keep your loads reasonably consistent, then you'll see a pattern emerge where a series won't group all that well, then they'll start to group nicely, then back to not so well. The velocity node is that zone where the loads are grouping well. It's generally believed to be a result of the periodic nature of barrel harmonics.

Holy shit thank you. Why couldn't the internet sum it up that easy.

This thread is great, I've been struggling with finding a good load for my new rifle. Thanks guys

 

[Dogtown]

Load Dev is honestly one of my favorite aspects of precision shooting, and based on the title of this thread I'd have to assume it's not yours. But if you do plan to further develop your handload skills, you should seriously consider buying Quickload. It's a great way to simulate all kinds of variables in load development without actually firing a shot. So instead of buying a range of bullets & powders to test out on a new cartridge, I experiment with QL to get an idea of what combo is going to give the results I'm looking for. From there I decide on the components and start the load development process.

In the interim, you can just PM with ideas and I can test them out for you in QL.

 

[oldfatguy]

@Dthomas3523

Quick question how many rounds per charge weight do you use to find the powder node?

OCW method works very well. 3 sighters and 3 at each graduation. Usually total of 21 or 24 rounds.

OFG

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

The problem is dudes loading to attain .3” groups when in reality, when they slap their rifle in a barricade bag and shoot a group in the kneeling or standing they are lucky to shoot 2” at 100. Just load to your shooting ability and go burn the barrel out.

 

[phlegethon]

Load Dev is honestly one of my favorite aspects of precision shooting, and based on the title of this thread I'd have to assume it's not yours. But if you do plan to further develop your handload skills, you should seriously consider buying Quickload. It's a great way to simulate all kinds of variables in load development without actually firing a shot. So instead of buying a range of bullets & powders to test out on a new cartridge, I experiment with QL to get an idea of what combo is going to give the results I'm looking for. From there I decide on the components and start the load development process.

In the interim, you can just PM with ideas and I can test them out for you in QL.

Have you tried Gordon's Reloading Tool? It's so much better than QL. The interface is better, there is more functionality including a cartridge designer, and the author is highly responsive to feedback. If you like this stuff you should check it out.

 

[MCHOG]

A node is where the velocity stabilizes and you're more likely to get better accuracy. If you shoot groups across a whole bunch of different weights, and as long as you keep your loads reasonably consistent, then you'll see a pattern emerge where a series won't group all that well, then they'll start to group nicely, then back to not so well. The velocity node is that zone where the loads are grouping well. It's generally believed to be a result of the periodic nature of barrel harmonics.

I've always thought of a velocity node is a flat part in the velocity curve where a little more powder does not result in a little more speed. I'd look for those flat spots and set my charge weight in the middle of them. Then to tighten up the group, if necessary, I'd adjust the seating depth. No?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I've always thought of a velocity node is a flat part in the velocity curve where a little more powder does not result in a little more speed. I'd look for those flat spots and set my charge weight in the middle of them. Then to tighten up the group, if necessary, I'd adjust the seating depth. No?

He’s still operating under older approaches. Before good chronos were reliable/affordable, one had to look at everything in a broad/large picture.

Now we can break things down into powder and seating nodes separately.

Both methods work.

 

[Steel head]

He’s still operating under older approaches. Before good chronos were reliable/affordable, one had to look at everything in a broad/large picture.

Now we can break things down into powder and seating nodes separately.

Both methods work.

Good chrony’s made easy and fast load development.
It’s amazing what you can accomplish in so few rounds of testing now.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Good chrony’s made easy and fast load development.
It’s amazing what you can accomplish in so few rounds of testing now.

Truth be told, for prs size targets and distances, as long as you have a consistent powder drop, a good BC, and velocity, and it’s better than an moa.......you can literally run most any random charge without development and be fine.

The key is either truing velocity in the software with the new random load, or having a good BC or custom curve that works with the actual chrono MV.

For example, in my 6x47 with 109’s, the AB custom curve has worked with just the chrono velocity across three lots of 109’s with zero tweaking needed.

I’ve experimented with random charges (with fx120 and proper brass prep of course). And as long as I chrono them and input them velocity, it’s been perfect to 1k yds. My ES is never over 40-50 with the worst loads, so the target size is plenty for this.

The only time I’d worry is if you were somewhere that say started the day at 40deg and ended up at 90deg (for example). As that’s when you want to be in a node that doesn’t go ape shit with the velocity change.

But for most places, as long as you have a good BC or curve, you can get away with almost anything for prs.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

I do a hybrid OCW/pressure/ladder test at 300-400 yards.

One round per charge weight doesn’t tell you much in a ladder test, an OCW doesn’t necessarily tell you what a load will do further out. By combining the two and also looking for pressure at the same time you will effectively kill three birds with one stone.

Pick the best charge and shoot groups at progressive seating depths until you find one that pulls everything together and you’re done!

 

[Dthomas3523]

I do a hybrid OCW/pressure/ladder test at 300-400 yards.

One round per charge weight doesn’t tell you much in a ladder test, an OCW doesn’t necessarily tell you what a load will do further out. By combining the two and also looking for pressure at the same time you will effectively kill three birds with one stone.

Pick the best charge and shoot groups at progressive seating depths until you find one that pulls everything together and you’re done!

3-400 yds doesn’t tell you anything you can’t see at 100.

The only reason to shoot at distance during load development is to make sure BC is consistent from bullet to bullet, which needs about twice that distance to start seeing (or to tune positive compensation if you’re looking to do that).

Powder charge has about zero to do with groups at distance as long as your MV ES is small enough for the intended group/target size.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

3-400 yds doesn’t tell you anything you can’t see at 100.

The only reason to shoot at distance during load development is to make sure BC is consistent from bullet to bullet, which needs about twice that distance to start seeing (or to tune positive compensation if you’re looking to do that).

Powder charge has about zero to do with groups at distance as long as your MV ES is small enough for the intended group/target size.

300-400 yards will make what is happening at 100 more apparent if you have several options that look similar closer in and can’t decide which one to go with, it will also verify (or not) your 100 yard results can be expected to continue to work at distance before loading a batch of unproven ammo. Just because it SHOULD work doesn’t always mean it WILL work and KNOWING it will work should be enough of a reason to make verification at distance a worthwhile part of the load development process before committing to a load.

Proponents of the barrel harmonics theory would also beg to differ that literally tens of millions of firearms around the world have had group sizes go from bad to good or good to bad by doing nothing more than altering the amount of powder in the case.



#chargeweightsmatter

 

[Steel head]

I do a hybrid OCW/pressure/ladder test at 300-400 yards.

One round per charge weight doesn’t tell you much in a ladder test, an OCW doesn’t necessarily tell you what a load will do further out. By combining the two and also looking for pressure at the same time you will effectively kill three birds with one stone.

Pick the best charge and shoot groups at progressive seating depths until you find one that pulls everything together and you’re done!

 

[Dthomas3523]

300-400 yards will make what is happening at 100 more apparent if you have several options that look similar closer in and can’t decide which one to go with, it will also verify (or not) your 100 yard results can be expected to continue to work at distance before loading a batch of unproven ammo. Just because it SHOULD work doesn’t always mean it WILL work and KNOWING it will work should be enough of a reason to make verification at distance a worthwhile part of the load development process before committing to a load.

Proponents of the barrel harmonics theory would also beg to differ that literally tens of millions of firearms around the world have had group sizes go from bad to good or good to bad by doing nothing more than altering the amount of powder in the case.



#chargeweightsmatter

You clearly don’t understand.

If your velocity is stable, your powder charge is done as far as holding up at distance.

It’s not a matter of “should”, it’s a matter of it’s not possible at that point for your powder charge to be the reason it doesn’t group well. Your rifle won’t go from shooting .5moa at 100 to magically shooting 1.5moa at 1,000 because of powder charge if the MV ES is small enough to shoot 1 moa (it the MV ES isn’t small enough, that’s a different story, but doesn’t require any distance to what so ever).

At that point it’s either the shooter or the bullet. You’ve already tuned seating depth at 100, so again, the rifle can’t magically go from .5 to 1.5moa. There has to be a reason. You already have a stable MV ES that is small enough to shoot .5. And assuming it’s not the shooter, the only thing left is the bullet. Assuming the bullet is stable (proper twist and quality bullet, so it’s stable). The only thing that is left is BC. So, if your load “falls apart at distance” at this point then you need to sort and/or point/tip your bullets to uniform the BC.

You are basically being a parrot for circa 1990 loading methods without actually understanding what is going on.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Easy button (for practical/prs style shooting)

Shoot rounds into berm with chrono. Find powder node.

Shoot groups at 100 tuning seating depth

Shoot 300, 600, 1,000 to gather dope to true data. Use this time to assess your bullet. If there is a problem that isn’t shooter related, then buy better bullets or sort/uniform bullets.

 

[CxAgent]

Is this just a single round per weight charge or multiple rounds per weight charge?

Easy button (for practical/prs style shooting)

Shoot rounds into berm with chrono. Find powder node.

Shoot groups at 100 tuning seating depth

Shoot 300, 600, 1,000 to gather dope to true data. Use this time to assess your bullet. If there is a problem that isn’t shooter related, then buy better bullets or sort/uniform bullets.

 

[seanh]

Ok I give up. I search the internet for a while but got all kinds of different weird answers....

What do you guys mean by node?

Here's some info for you review regarding nodes.

Varmint Al's Engineering Page - Finite Element Analysis of Structures

 

[mkollman74]

I've got a bunch of data on here with 6.5 PRC. RL 26 is my go to now because of velocity and accuracy but I've fiddled with 4831, RL22, RL 23 and a lot of various bullets. Mostly for hobby and my own research chasing ragged holes. Search 6.5 PRC and there's lot.
My advice is be cautious with Hornady 147's as they come apart around 50-100 yrds out sometimes. I'm currently using the Berger 156 EOL's.

Was gonna say just this. Not a rare occurrence. I’ve spent several range days with a well known industry pro who frequently experienced this problem with the 147s. Different days, different lots. Fairly high failure rate. Could watch ‘em blow up through the spotter. Not sure if Hornady has found a solution yet.