long action 308?

[mocos]

I'm new at this
my first rifle is a pre-64 winchester in 308...given to me by my father when he retired in 80 something. My second rifle is a rem r5..a couple of months ago..

The winchester is a long action and easy to load through the top....the remington is a pita to do the same because it is a short action....something not to be accomplished quickly when in a hurry...

What historical events caused the 308 short action to become essentially the action of choice, at least for the remington, I dont have experience with any other rifles except my pre64 m70. Other than the obvious length difference, maybe more torque resistent, lighter weight or compactness...why wouldn't a long action 308 have more popularity....hype from the dbm makers??

 

[exhogflyer]

Re: long action 308?

I can't answer you from an engineering point, but why would you want the bolt to slide back another inch if it's not needed for a short round?Takes more time and metal to make,takes up more room in the stock,takes a 'lil longer to operate the extra distance.Also, if you have a raised cheekpiece on your stock, you need to shorten the distance of it because of the bolt length.There was/is a "long action" 308...it's called a 30/06.

 

[Mike]

Re: long action 308?

long action 308's are very popular, they're called ".30-06"

But the military no longer uses the 30-06 so it has fallen out of favor although it is a superior cartridge to the 308. All of the BS about LA vs. SA cycle speed is nothing more than crap. It's literally tenths of a second difference. If that makes a difference in your shooting, you're either in trouble or doing something wrong.

 

[mocos]

Re: long action 308?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">long action 308's are very popular, they're called ".30-06"

But the military no longer uses the 30-06 so it has fallen out of favor although it is a superior cartridge to the 308. All of the BS about LA vs. SA cycle speed is nothing more than crap. It's literally tenths of a second difference. If that makes a difference in your shooting, you're either in trouble or doing something wrong. </div></div>

ok....point taken..not sure but all pre 64 m70 in 308 are long actions...what experience I have is from local club shoots where a stage is more than 4 rounds which is the capacity of the winchester. I can load single rounds with my left hand reaching across and under the rifle while my right hand is operating the bolt without raising my head off the stock or poking myself in the eye with the end of the bolt....something that takes a bit more dexterity to do on the remington sa...the bolt operation/speed is not the glitch, it's getting the round into the short port in a timely mannyer....I suppose it could be overcome with a lot of practice.

 

[Chance]

Re: long action 308?

I like the short action for not only some of the reasons above...but also because if you are going to use a detachable magazine system you will have to use the big mags. For some it's not so much a big deal, but if I am going to use the big magazines, I would want something that is worth the extra weight/payload...like the 300 Win. mag etc... Just my $.02

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: long action 308?

One of our Sniper just switched from a LA .308 M70 to a LTR in .308. He isn't real fond of loading from the top on the Remington either.

It's really all I know, and I have never had a problem with it.

 

[Hummer]

Re: long action 308?

Well first off DO NOT LET GO THE PRE 64 Mod 70. You started with the best and everything from now on goes down hill. Even better get a pre War 70 and you will have arrived as it has a clip slot.
While they are available get some 1917 Enfield Extractors. They are a dead change over for the Pre 64 70 with minor filing for optimum feed reliability.

A Pre 64 will feed 308 just fine. You can get an adaptor block that will allow you to load it with stripper clips for rapid fire.

The more you shoot it the smoother the action will be and about your third barrel it will be silky smooth.

The Rem 700 short action is as you say a PITA of the first order. Very few guys shoot Rem actions at Perry. There are more T2K rifles these days and Tikka but the old line bolt gun shooters will use a Mod 70.

Palma shooters will go for the custom actions as it is all slow fire.

Long action 700s are very desirable for 308 because you can load heavy bullets seated further out (as the barrel wears you can chase the rifling downbore)and still have them feed.

If you find a good gunsmith you can get clip slots cut in both 70 and 700LA. Also just changing the bolt you can go to 300 Win Mag.

 

[mocos]

Re: long action 308?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chance</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the short action for not only some of the reasons above...but also because if you are going to use a detachable magazine system you will have to use the big mags. For some it's not so much a big deal, but if I am going to use the big magazines, I would want something that is worth the extra weight/payload...like the 300 Win. mag etc... Just my $.02 </div></div>

I understand and I'm with you there...have dbm on order for the r5....Has anybody brought up enlarging the port...m14s and garands have huge openings and far less metal in that area than a bolt action.?? How about a spacer in a long action so that it can use shorter 308 mags....I have a garand type in 308 and it rounds make it to the chamber all the time...haven't tried shooting it while upside down...

 

[mocos]

Re: long action 308?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well first off DO NOT LET GO THE PRE 64 Mod 70. You started with the best and everything from now on goes down hill. Even better get a pre War 70 and you will have arrived as it has a clip slot.
While they are available get some 1917 Enfield Extractors. They are a dead change over for the Pre 64 70 with minor filing for optimum feed reliability.

A Pre 64 will feed 308 just fine. You can get an adaptor block that will allow you to load it with stripper clips for rapid fire.

The more you shoot it the smoother the action will be and about your third barrel it will be silky smooth.

The Rem 700 short action is as you say a PITA of the first order. Very few guys shoot Rem actions at Perry. There are more T2K rifles these days and Tikka but the old line bolt gun shooters will use a Mod 70.

Palma shooters will go for the custom actions as it is all slow fire.

Long action 700s are very desirable for 308 because you can load heavy bullets seated further out (as the barrel wears you can chase the rifling downbore)and still have them feed.

If you find a good gunsmith you can get clip slots cut in both 70 and 700LA. Also just changing the bolt you can go to 300 Win Mag. </div></div>

Thanx Hummer

I don't intend to let it go...have some sentimental ties to it....its not that old maybe the fifties....definitely not pre war... it's a feather weight(6 1/2 lbs)...my dad hunted with it so the bluing is probably 90% and the stock has dings n scratches....not what I would consider collectable...so my intention is to see what potential there is in this old winchester.

 

[Walsh]

Re: long action 308?

In what way is the 30-06 a supeiror cartridge than the .308 BESIDES te 30-06 haveing heavier bullets?

 

[Revenge Seeker]

Re: long action 308?

because if you use the same bullet, it will hit harder, and get there faster.

 

[hgr2]

Re: long action 308?

I bet your pre 64 .308 has a short stroke kit in it that makes it pretty close to a 700 short action in actual stroke length. Probably a bit longer. You can do a simple conversion to make the action accept 3006 length cartridges. Gotta love them Winchesters!!

 

[Walsh]

Re: long action 308?

Isn't the .308 a more accurate cartridge?

Also, I single load my SA Remington 700 .308, and have no problems loading it, what are ya'll talking about it being a PITA to load?

 

[Mike]

Re: long action 308?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Walsh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In what way is the 30-06 a supeiror cartridge than the .308 BESIDES te 30-06 haveing heavier bullets?

Isn't the .308 a more accurate cartridge?

</div></div>

There are two initial ways the 30-06 is a better cartridge. The first is you can successfully shoot heavier bullets farther and faster.

The second is you can shoot the same weight bullet, a la 175SMK farther and faster.

The 308 is not a "more accurate cartridge". That is BS and wherever or whomever you picked that up from doesn't know what they are talking about. Another load of crap that you'll hear is that you can rack the bolt faster. Technically you can, but if tenths of a second, as in .1 or .2 matter to you, then you have other problems. There is no situation outside of a heated firefight where tenths of a second matter. And if you are in that situation, you either need an AR type of platform or you're in big trouble.

The only downside is if you want to run a drop down mag they are bigger and more expensive, but that's it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: long action 308?

Getting back to it, L/A .308's do exist, ala Savage 112BVSS, but a quick check of the website doesn't show any, so maybe they're not making any more, currently.

I don't really have the kind of free time and attention span that gives me doubts because the bolt cycles a bit longer. Honestly, unless I'm concentrating, I can hardly tell the difference.

What <span style="font-style: italic">would</span> bother me is getting bonked in the cheek by the rear end of the bolt when I was cycling another round into the chamber and wanted to keep my eye in the scope.

I think I could get the thing to work 'by feel'.

The ejection would be fairly obvious, and if the return stroke didn't pick up a round from the mag, I think I could tell, and back up a bit and try again.

...And there could be an advantage to the L/A.

I would no longer be posed with the potential problem of having to choose between loading cartridge OAL's to take advantage of magazine length and rifling engagement.

Regarding the .30-'06, I've abandoned the .308 and now all three of my .30 caliber rifles are chambered in .30-'06.

Greg

 

[exhogflyer]

Re: long action 308?

I wanted to add something to this thread about the info here....
Never thought I knew everything and in fact I'm usually the first to admit that I have a LOT to learn....however I'm always amazed on this site by the amount of knowledge and experience coming from the members.There are so MANY of you that really DO know your shit...and "sponges" like me soak it up.
This thread is a perfect example.....

 

[bignada]

Re: long action 308?

Think about a .30/284 in a Long Action and get .30-06 velocities, with a bit less powder; and also get .308 case length benefits which mean more consistent powder ignitions. Oh yeah, maybe with RL-17 you approach .300win or wsm velocities...

And yes, with shorter case you have more room to seat extra long match bullets in a long action. 220 & 240gr bullets would be a reality with 1:10 twist and a .30/284. Probably see 5k round barrel life.

May as well get all you can if you're going to optimize your setup.

 

[mexicanmatch]

Re: long action 308?

the 30-06 and the 45 acp will never die, just keep reading and you will find out why.

 

[Hummer]

Re: long action 308?

While the Pre 64 308 cal Mod 70s had a shorter mag and a longer ejector finger there is actually no need for such. I have and have seen many long action 70s feeding 308s without a hitch.
The nice thing about the 308s with the short mag well is the screw on stripper clip guides that were made.
I have a shortie and that rifle will eject brass with the finest M14. In rapid fire my brass went towards 1:30-2:00 and five feet from the rifle ! ! !

A long action will dump brass right on or just off your shooting mat prone rapid. In slow fire I preferred not to let the brass hit the ground and opened it carefully and took it out and put it back in box. Same for standing.

Also the triggers can be adjusted and stoned to give an outstanding trigger pull with very little overtravel.

All they really need is dipping the bolt knob in tool coating stuff (that stuff you see in a can for dipping plier handles, screw driver handles in). About three dips will increase bolt knob diameter about 3/8" and things really get smooth in rapid fire.

At short range there is basically not difference in 308 and 30.06 insofar as match shooting is concerned. When you get to 600 yards you can get more velocity out of a 190 bullet and I would estimate you have about a 2% edge at 600.

At 1000 yards is where the 30.06 will start to pull out in front. Gary Anderson figured the 30.06 had a 5% edge at 1000 and I cannot disagree with that number.

Not until the Palma Match was won back to back with 30.06 that it was outlawed in the Palma Trophy match.

Larry Moore won hundreds of matches with 30.06 and his favorite load was 54 Gr. 4350 with 200 gr. Sierra MK in GI cases. That is a rather stiff load but a flat running performer. My load was 53 gr. 4350 with 190 Winchester. I won with new Lapua brass but would not recommend it as it could not be reloaded after first firing.

If you have a nice tight 30.06 chamber ( mine was designed by Ray Steele) and start with a 26" barrel and you take good care of your barrel there is no reason why you cannot get to 12,000 rounds. I would go with 12 twist and run 175 Sierra MKs. You can set the barrel back twice and still have a 24" barrel at 8000 rounds and then shoot it till it quits.

Obviously you need to have a barrel at full dimension for about five inches in front of the chamber. I like the 5A contour for a medium weight barrel and No 7 for match rifle.

Another fine contour would be the Light Palma or Medium Palma barrel.

 

[mocos]

Re: long action 308?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hgr2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bet your pre 64 .308 has a short stroke kit in it that makes it pretty close to a 700 short action in actual stroke length. Probably a bit longer. You can do a simple conversion to make the action accept 3006 length cartridges. Gotta love them Winchesters!! </div></div>

never heard of a short stroke kit....mine's a long action 308...didn't measure but, stroke length may the same but port opening (length) is longer which, by the way, I like better than the rem short action...the port is long enough to stuff the longest 308 loading without having to fumble around.

Has anyone ever elongated the port on a short action...say 1/2" more??

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: long action 308?

My light sporter/tactical rifle is a 22" M70, with the regular, not claw, extractor. With the Tasco Mildot Varmint/Target 6-24x42, it weighs in around 6 1/2lb unloaded.

Load is 57.9gr H4350 behind a 168SMK, Win Brass, and Match primers, your choice. 2970fps MV, Pejsa says 1408fps at 1Kyd, 800ft alt, 70 degrees F.

Stock design is more straight-line than average, and felt recoil, though stiff, is not unbearable. This is a hotter load, Hodgdon lists 59.0gr as max with the functionally similar HDY bullet.

My R77 .30-'06 is definitely unhappy with this load, but the M70 copes with only reasonable pressure signs.

IMHO, the telling difference between the .308 and .30-'06 is the way it handles the 168SMK. In the .308, it's a very good bullet, but it won't go the distance at 1000yd because the .308's capabilities are so marginal. With the .30-'06, this excellent bullet's potential is realized, and more, at 1000yd.

Greg

 

[mocos]

Re: long action 308?

so...with all of that info to absorb..and thanx much..all points taken and now for the 64,000 question...

What do you think about lengthening the port of a rem sa(say, 1/2") so that a 308 cartridge however loaded long could be dropped into the port without having to angle it front to back...would the rigidity of the action be compromised?? There are no rear lugs and the lockup is all at the front end of the bolt....?...enlarging the ejection port on a 1911 slide is so commonplace today that newbies think thats the only way they come....