What die sets are you guys using to load long range AR rounds? I do mostly paper punching and some varmint hunting. Shots out to 5-600yds.
Long range AR reloading die set questions.
- Thread starter Patrick_S
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Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
Redding and Hornady are my prefered dies, but RCBS will work fine. Lee are ok.
Redding and Hornady are my prefered dies, but RCBS will work fine. Lee are ok.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Patrick Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What die sets are you guys using to load long range AR rounds? I do mostly paper punching and some varmint hunting. Shots out to 5-600yds. </div></div>
Get your terms straight, 5-600 yards is Mid Range, Long Range it 800-1000 yards.
I use Redding SBFL Bushing S-Type die and Competition seating die.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Patrick Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What die sets are you guys using to load long range AR rounds? I do mostly paper punching and some varmint hunting. Shots out to 5-600yds. </div></div>
Get your terms straight, 5-600 yards is Mid Range, Long Range it 800-1000 yards.
I use Redding SBFL Bushing S-Type die and Competition seating die.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Patrick Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What die sets are you guys using to load long range AR rounds? I do mostly paper punching and some varmint hunting. Shots out to 5-600yds. </div></div>
Get your terms straight, 5-600 yards is Mid Range, Long Range it 800-1000 yards.
I use Redding SBFL Bushing S-Type die and Competition seating die.</div></div>
I know my terms, but my question may have not been clear enough. I wanted to know what you guys use for LR shooting and I was stating that my shots will only be 5-600yds if that makes a difference.
Since nobody mentioned it, I am guessing that you guys are using standard dies for this type of reloading as opposed to the fancy micrometer-type sets.
I also forgot to mention I will be loading up 60'ish grain stuff for my carbine upper.
Thank You,
Patrick Scott
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Patrick Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What die sets are you guys using to load long range AR rounds? I do mostly paper punching and some varmint hunting. Shots out to 5-600yds. </div></div>
Get your terms straight, 5-600 yards is Mid Range, Long Range it 800-1000 yards.
I use Redding SBFL Bushing S-Type die and Competition seating die.</div></div>
I know my terms, but my question may have not been clear enough. I wanted to know what you guys use for LR shooting and I was stating that my shots will only be 5-600yds if that makes a difference.
Since nobody mentioned it, I am guessing that you guys are using standard dies for this type of reloading as opposed to the fancy micrometer-type sets.
I also forgot to mention I will be loading up 60'ish grain stuff for my carbine upper.
Thank You,
Patrick Scott
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
My choice for any range is Redding dies, I think they are the best available. The micrometer die is very well suited for any mid to long range, especially if you are a person who chases the lands, it makes it easier to change length. Just my .02
My choice for any range is Redding dies, I think they are the best available. The micrometer die is very well suited for any mid to long range, especially if you are a person who chases the lands, it makes it easier to change length. Just my .02
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
The Redding competition seating die IS a micrometer die. Redding does not make a micrometer full-length resizing die but there is no need as their Type S bushing die is superb.
The Redding competition seating die IS a micrometer die. Redding does not make a micrometer full-length resizing die but there is no need as their Type S bushing die is superb.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
+1 for the Redding competition die. It is very accurate.
+1 for the Redding competition die. It is very accurate.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
In my opinion yes, but others are free to differ.
In my opinion yes, but others are free to differ.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion yes, but others are free to differ. </div></div>
Care to elaborate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my opinion yes, but others are free to differ. </div></div>
Care to elaborate?
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
Since we're in the mood of nitpicking people asking questions, what is 600-800 yards considered oh wise ones?
Since we're in the mood of nitpicking people asking questions, what is 600-800 yards considered oh wise ones?
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since we're in the mood of nitpicking people asking questions, what is 600-800 yards considered oh wise ones? </div></div>
700 yards.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since we're in the mood of nitpicking people asking questions, what is 600-800 yards considered oh wise ones? </div></div>
700 yards.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to hijack but: I use a Lee neck sizing die and a Redding micrometer seating die. Am I losing anything by using the Lee for neck sizing? </div></div>
I'll continue the hijack, but I think this little side discussion is proper for this thread, where we are talking about LR handloading for an AR.
I have nothing against Lee dies, I'm sure they are fine; what I have an issue with is neck sizing in general and especially neck sizing for an AR-15. I realise that a lot of people think neck sizing is the greatest thing for brass longevity and for optimum accuracy, I just happen to think they are wrong. Neck sizing has its place, but not in any rifle that is used at the hide.
When you start with new brass, it has a certain internal volume, after the first firing the internal volume is different and if you do not resize it it will not be the same as the load prior to it. The next time you load this brass and shoot it, it will have yet another internal volume. At soe point, you decide that it is now too thight and you use a body of FL sizing die and you try to squeeze the die back to its original size. This means the next load after the body size will ben in a case that has a very different volume compared to the last load befor the body die application. Then the brass grows again. As you can see, there is no consistency with neck sizing. If you never used a body die and got 20-30 loads out of it, then I would say, you are using dies with a consistent volume after the first 3-4 firings, but that does not happen except for benchresters.
On the other hand using a FL die, especialy a bushing die, you can be surgically accurate in putting the brass back to the same dimension every time and carefully pushing back the shoulder just a few thousands. The internal volume will remain far more consistent that way and the brass gets worked vey little every time, instead of one big crank with a body every few loads. The use of the bushing with the appropriate size for the brass you are using ensures that you do not overwork the neck by crunching it down too much and then expanding it back (and stretching it) with an expander ball.
My Match AR has an extremely tight chamber and I have taken to using a Redding small base bushing die to resize the brass; the effort required at resizing is minimal. For my other ARs, I use a regular Redding bushing die.
So, that's my story; I use busing dies without expander balls and when the necksplits or the primers won't stay in, I toss the brass. I do not get case seperation and I believe I get better load to load consistency FL sizing as opposed to neck sizing and a body die every few loads.
If you neck size and you have to use a body or Fl die, ever, you are not getting the load-to-load consistency that you think you are.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to hijack but: I use a Lee neck sizing die and a Redding micrometer seating die. Am I losing anything by using the Lee for neck sizing? </div></div>
I'll continue the hijack, but I think this little side discussion is proper for this thread, where we are talking about LR handloading for an AR.
I have nothing against Lee dies, I'm sure they are fine; what I have an issue with is neck sizing in general and especially neck sizing for an AR-15. I realise that a lot of people think neck sizing is the greatest thing for brass longevity and for optimum accuracy, I just happen to think they are wrong. Neck sizing has its place, but not in any rifle that is used at the hide.
When you start with new brass, it has a certain internal volume, after the first firing the internal volume is different and if you do not resize it it will not be the same as the load prior to it. The next time you load this brass and shoot it, it will have yet another internal volume. At soe point, you decide that it is now too thight and you use a body of FL sizing die and you try to squeeze the die back to its original size. This means the next load after the body size will ben in a case that has a very different volume compared to the last load befor the body die application. Then the brass grows again. As you can see, there is no consistency with neck sizing. If you never used a body die and got 20-30 loads out of it, then I would say, you are using dies with a consistent volume after the first 3-4 firings, but that does not happen except for benchresters.
On the other hand using a FL die, especialy a bushing die, you can be surgically accurate in putting the brass back to the same dimension every time and carefully pushing back the shoulder just a few thousands. The internal volume will remain far more consistent that way and the brass gets worked vey little every time, instead of one big crank with a body every few loads. The use of the bushing with the appropriate size for the brass you are using ensures that you do not overwork the neck by crunching it down too much and then expanding it back (and stretching it) with an expander ball.
My Match AR has an extremely tight chamber and I have taken to using a Redding small base bushing die to resize the brass; the effort required at resizing is minimal. For my other ARs, I use a regular Redding bushing die.
So, that's my story; I use busing dies without expander balls and when the necksplits or the primers won't stay in, I toss the brass. I do not get case seperation and I believe I get better load to load consistency FL sizing as opposed to neck sizing and a body die every few loads.
If you neck size and you have to use a body or Fl die, ever, you are not getting the load-to-load consistency that you think you are.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
Thanks for the answering my question and all the useful extra info.
Thanks for the answering my question and all the useful extra info.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since we're in the mood of nitpicking people asking questions, what is 600-800 yards considered oh wise ones? </div></div>
700 yards.</div></div>
1159 posts and that is by far your best.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since we're in the mood of nitpicking people asking questions, what is 600-800 yards considered oh wise ones? </div></div>
700 yards.</div></div>
1159 posts and that is by far your best.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
Ok since I am actually getting to reload ar alot more 223for my ar as well as 308 for my DPMS, I have a question.
ifirst off in the past i have had issues with 223 ammo in my ar getting stuck just prior to the bolt being fully at battery. I am assuming that since my cases were trimmed to the proper coal and that I saw no neck bulges that this was due to an enlarged base. so my question is this.
Does it hurt your brass to use a small base die everytime?
which die set from redding should i order
please explain how the s bushing die is differant than the small base.
thank you
Ok since I am actually getting to reload ar alot more 223for my ar as well as 308 for my DPMS, I have a question.
ifirst off in the past i have had issues with 223 ammo in my ar getting stuck just prior to the bolt being fully at battery. I am assuming that since my cases were trimmed to the proper coal and that I saw no neck bulges that this was due to an enlarged base. so my question is this.
Does it hurt your brass to use a small base die everytime?
which die set from redding should i order
please explain how the s bushing die is differant than the small base.
thank you
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to hijack but: I use a Lee neck sizing die and a Redding micrometer seating die. Am I losing anything by using the Lee for neck sizing? </div></div>
I'll continue the hijack, but I think this little side discussion is proper for this thread, where we are talking about LR handloading for an AR.
I have nothing against Lee dies, I'm sure they are fine; what I have an issue with is neck sizing in general and especially neck sizing for an AR-15. I realise that a lot of people think neck sizing is the greatest thing for brass longevity and for optimum accuracy, I just happen to think they are wrong. Neck sizing has its place, but not in any rifle that is used at the hide.
When you start with new brass, it has a certain internal volume, after the first firing the internal volume is different and if you do not resize it it will not be the same as the load prior to it. The next time you load this brass and shoot it, it will have yet another internal volume. At soe point, you decide that it is now too thight and you use a body of FL sizing die and you try to squeeze the die back to its original size. This means the next load after the body size will ben in a case that has a very different volume compared to the last load befor the body die application. Then the brass grows again. As you can see, there is no consistency with neck sizing. If you never used a body die and got 20-30 loads out of it, then I would say, you are using dies with a consistent volume after the first 3-4 firings, but that does not happen except for benchresters.
On the other hand using a FL die, especialy a bushing die, you can be surgically accurate in putting the brass back to the same dimension every time and carefully pushing back the shoulder just a few thousands. The internal volume will remain far more consistent that way and the brass gets worked vey little every time, instead of one big crank with a body every few loads. The use of the bushing with the appropriate size for the brass you are using ensures that you do not overwork the neck by crunching it down too much and then expanding it back (and stretching it) with an expander ball.
My Match AR has an extremely tight chamber and I have taken to using a Redding small base bushing die to resize the brass; the effort required at resizing is minimal. For my other ARs, I use a regular Redding bushing die.
So, that's my story; I use busing dies without expander balls and when the necksplits or the primers won't stay in, I toss the brass. I do not get case seperation and I believe I get better load to load consistency FL sizing as opposed to neck sizing and a body die every few loads.
If you neck size and you have to use a body or Fl die, ever, you are not getting the load-to-load consistency that you think you are. </div></div>
I'm sorry I meant to say that I'm using a Lee neck sizing die for my .308 bolts. I use a FL die for autos. I learned this lesson the hard way when I neck sized the cases for my old DPMS .308. I even broke a charging handle trying to remove a stuck case(hitting it with a rubber mallet) LOL.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to hijack but: I use a Lee neck sizing die and a Redding micrometer seating die. Am I losing anything by using the Lee for neck sizing? </div></div>
I'll continue the hijack, but I think this little side discussion is proper for this thread, where we are talking about LR handloading for an AR.
I have nothing against Lee dies, I'm sure they are fine; what I have an issue with is neck sizing in general and especially neck sizing for an AR-15. I realise that a lot of people think neck sizing is the greatest thing for brass longevity and for optimum accuracy, I just happen to think they are wrong. Neck sizing has its place, but not in any rifle that is used at the hide.
When you start with new brass, it has a certain internal volume, after the first firing the internal volume is different and if you do not resize it it will not be the same as the load prior to it. The next time you load this brass and shoot it, it will have yet another internal volume. At soe point, you decide that it is now too thight and you use a body of FL sizing die and you try to squeeze the die back to its original size. This means the next load after the body size will ben in a case that has a very different volume compared to the last load befor the body die application. Then the brass grows again. As you can see, there is no consistency with neck sizing. If you never used a body die and got 20-30 loads out of it, then I would say, you are using dies with a consistent volume after the first 3-4 firings, but that does not happen except for benchresters.
On the other hand using a FL die, especialy a bushing die, you can be surgically accurate in putting the brass back to the same dimension every time and carefully pushing back the shoulder just a few thousands. The internal volume will remain far more consistent that way and the brass gets worked vey little every time, instead of one big crank with a body every few loads. The use of the bushing with the appropriate size for the brass you are using ensures that you do not overwork the neck by crunching it down too much and then expanding it back (and stretching it) with an expander ball.
My Match AR has an extremely tight chamber and I have taken to using a Redding small base bushing die to resize the brass; the effort required at resizing is minimal. For my other ARs, I use a regular Redding bushing die.
So, that's my story; I use busing dies without expander balls and when the necksplits or the primers won't stay in, I toss the brass. I do not get case seperation and I believe I get better load to load consistency FL sizing as opposed to neck sizing and a body die every few loads.
If you neck size and you have to use a body or Fl die, ever, you are not getting the load-to-load consistency that you think you are. </div></div>
I'm sorry I meant to say that I'm using a Lee neck sizing die for my .308 bolts. I use a FL die for autos. I learned this lesson the hard way when I neck sized the cases for my old DPMS .308. I even broke a charging handle trying to remove a stuck case(hitting it with a rubber mallet) LOL.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DAFAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) so my question is this.
Does it hurt your brass to use a small base die everytime?
which die set from redding should i order
please explain how the s bushing die is differant than the small base.
thank you </div></div>
In my estimation using a Small Base Die is not an issue for the brass. However even if you were to have says 6 firings instead of 7 due to the use of an S/B die, I would suggest that you are still far ahead because the loads will have chambered without a hitch for those 6 firings.
But the use of an SB die is really a function of the chamber. If your AR has a 5.56 NATO or Wylde chamber, there is no need for an S/B die, as thse chambers are made to have a bit of slop (more so in the NATO chamber.) If you chamber is a match chamber, you should consult with the manufacturer and ask them for advice. I elected to use S/B dies for my Match AR with the Krieger barrel and the match chamber. I have never had a problem and the chamber is very tight. For my NM AR and orthers, the regular FL die is all that is needed for perfect function. I never fire my Match AR brass in my other ARs and I discovered that my regular brass will not fit in the Match AR, after the first resize with an FL die.
So, find out which chamber you have and decide on which resizing die to use, FL or SBFL.
A bushing die can be regular or small base full length resizing die. The bushing is essentially a donut with a very exact size hole that fits in the top of the die. The bushing will put the neck of the case back to the diameter of the donut hole. You use the proper size bushing to achieve the desire external diameter for your brass. If you are very new to reloading you may want to start with a non-bushing die, regular or small base.
I have regular and SB dies from Redding for my ARs, and they are both Type S bushing dies. I have a series of bushings because over the years I have used various types of brass and they all have different thickness. The thickest was the Lapua brass, followed by the Winchester. The LC brass was a couple thousands less than the Winchester. I have the Titanium nitride bushings. BTW, I do not use the expander ball, but I do use the little plastic grommet to hold the decaping pin instead.
My regular (non S/B) die is the Redding Type S Full Bushing die: 77111 You can get it in a set with the micrometer Redding Bushing Competition Bullet seater die: 36111
My S/B die is the Redding Small Base Type S Length die 77323.
Since you mentioned a 308, my current F-class match rifle has an extremely tight chamber and I elected to use a Redding Small Base Type S length die for it, 77355. I have two bushings for that die, one for Lapua brass and the other for Winchester brass.
Before you order the dies and the bushing(s) you will need to measure the outside diameter of the neck of a loaded round with the brass that you intend to use. I subtract .002 from that and use that size bushing for that brass. In my Match 308, I only subtract .001. You can use whatever value you feel is proper for neck tension, usually between .002 and .005.
Hope this helps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DAFAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) so my question is this.
Does it hurt your brass to use a small base die everytime?
which die set from redding should i order
please explain how the s bushing die is differant than the small base.
thank you </div></div>
In my estimation using a Small Base Die is not an issue for the brass. However even if you were to have says 6 firings instead of 7 due to the use of an S/B die, I would suggest that you are still far ahead because the loads will have chambered without a hitch for those 6 firings.
But the use of an SB die is really a function of the chamber. If your AR has a 5.56 NATO or Wylde chamber, there is no need for an S/B die, as thse chambers are made to have a bit of slop (more so in the NATO chamber.) If you chamber is a match chamber, you should consult with the manufacturer and ask them for advice. I elected to use S/B dies for my Match AR with the Krieger barrel and the match chamber. I have never had a problem and the chamber is very tight. For my NM AR and orthers, the regular FL die is all that is needed for perfect function. I never fire my Match AR brass in my other ARs and I discovered that my regular brass will not fit in the Match AR, after the first resize with an FL die.
So, find out which chamber you have and decide on which resizing die to use, FL or SBFL.
A bushing die can be regular or small base full length resizing die. The bushing is essentially a donut with a very exact size hole that fits in the top of the die. The bushing will put the neck of the case back to the diameter of the donut hole. You use the proper size bushing to achieve the desire external diameter for your brass. If you are very new to reloading you may want to start with a non-bushing die, regular or small base.
I have regular and SB dies from Redding for my ARs, and they are both Type S bushing dies. I have a series of bushings because over the years I have used various types of brass and they all have different thickness. The thickest was the Lapua brass, followed by the Winchester. The LC brass was a couple thousands less than the Winchester. I have the Titanium nitride bushings. BTW, I do not use the expander ball, but I do use the little plastic grommet to hold the decaping pin instead.
My regular (non S/B) die is the Redding Type S Full Bushing die: 77111 You can get it in a set with the micrometer Redding Bushing Competition Bullet seater die: 36111
My S/B die is the Redding Small Base Type S Length die 77323.
Since you mentioned a 308, my current F-class match rifle has an extremely tight chamber and I elected to use a Redding Small Base Type S length die for it, 77355. I have two bushings for that die, one for Lapua brass and the other for Winchester brass.
Before you order the dies and the bushing(s) you will need to measure the outside diameter of the neck of a loaded round with the brass that you intend to use. I subtract .002 from that and use that size bushing for that brass. In my Match 308, I only subtract .001. You can use whatever value you feel is proper for neck tension, usually between .002 and .005.
Hope this helps.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (snip)
I'm sorry I meant to say that I'm using a Lee neck sizing die for my .308 bolts. I use a FL die for autos. I learned this lesson the hard way when I neck sized the cases for my old DPMS .308. I even broke a charging handle trying to remove a stuck case(hitting it with a rubber mallet) LOL. </div></div>
I feel your pain, well, not as much as that charging handle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (snip)
I'm sorry I meant to say that I'm using a Lee neck sizing die for my .308 bolts. I use a FL die for autos. I learned this lesson the hard way when I neck sized the cases for my old DPMS .308. I even broke a charging handle trying to remove a stuck case(hitting it with a rubber mallet) LOL. </div></div>
I feel your pain, well, not as much as that charging handle.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
I use a Dillon RL550B with Dillon dies to load 223. I use the Redding Competition micrometer seating die primarily because it makes it so much easier to adjust for different bullets. If I were loading 223 for utmost accuracy I would be using Redding type S dies like I do for 308. I still need quite a bit of practice shooting my AR out to 600 yards but I'm working on it.
I use a Dillon RL550B with Dillon dies to load 223. I use the Redding Competition micrometer seating die primarily because it makes it so much easier to adjust for different bullets. If I were loading 223 for utmost accuracy I would be using Redding type S dies like I do for 308. I still need quite a bit of practice shooting my AR out to 600 yards but I'm working on it.
Re: Long range AR reloading die set questions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DAFAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok since I am actually getting to reload ar alot more 223for my ar as well as 308 for my DPMS, I have a question.
ifirst off in the past i have had issues with 223 ammo in my ar getting stuck just prior to the bolt being fully at battery. I am assuming that since my cases were trimmed to the proper coal and that I saw no neck bulges that this was due to an enlarged base. so my question is this.
</div></div>This may also be caused by the shoulder not being bumped enough.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DAFAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok since I am actually getting to reload ar alot more 223for my ar as well as 308 for my DPMS, I have a question.
ifirst off in the past i have had issues with 223 ammo in my ar getting stuck just prior to the bolt being fully at battery. I am assuming that since my cases were trimmed to the proper coal and that I saw no neck bulges that this was due to an enlarged base. so my question is this.
</div></div>This may also be caused by the shoulder not being bumped enough.
