Long Range Summer camp thoughts, help, advice

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Hey all I wasn't sure where to place this thread so I thought I'd put it here. Mods if this is in the wrong section please move it.

A little background here I've been working summer camps with Cross Trail Outfitters. It's a youth hunting fishing ministry for young boys/men. We usually have several summer camps every year on an island centered around saltwater fishing. Most of the camps are ages 10ish-16ish. All the camp kids tend to be from eastern NC.

My grandparents own a ranch out in South Dakota north of Rapid City right on the Belle Fouche (spelling?) river. We go deer hunting out there every year for a long time. Well we thought about having a long range shooting camp. We have a bunkhouse built. We have an abundance of land to play on of beautiful rolling hills. (We don't have these in E. NC!) We also have access to a couple of size able dogtowns.

It looks like we might have our first western shooting camp this summer with 6 boys. I am kind of the "long range expert" of the group so I started brainstorming. The first thing is to start collecting equipment after finalizing the dates. I originally thought we could use .22s because the ammo is cheap and they are fun at 200 yds. But then I started thinking they just don't provide the energy for fun prairie dogging and I don't think we would get the results we wanted at extended ranges.

Next logical choice is the .223 normally the ammo is plentiful and cheap. It's not so plentiful but we have roughly 5 months to get some. Since we don't have any .223 guns worth shooting at distance we have to buy some. I was eyeballing the Savage 12 FV or Savage 12 Precision Carbine. We don't have to have the highest velocity and the short barrel is nice when we are taking kids hunting here in NC. I think the savages will produce good enough results for what we want to do. We also get a nice discount from Savage for being Hunter Safety Instructors.

Next would be the scopes. I'm thinking the Vortex Viper 6-20 or 4-16 will suite us well. I'd love to use HS HST or even PST but I think they will probably be out of the budget. Just looking for something that is dependable, decent turrets, glass, and parallax while still being budget conscious. I have a couple of the PST vortex scopes and I am thoroughly impressed for the money.

Bases will probably be EGW 20 MOA with TPS Rings.

I am thinking 2 or 3 these setups for the 6 boys will do us well. 2-3 boys on the scope and 3 or 4 boys on other glass. It's fun spotting for friends and more fun ribbing them when they miss. It is also a good teaching opportunity for the boys not shooting how to spot trace, impact and call corrections.

I have a Swaro and Leupold spotter to use so far. I'm planning on picking up a razor spotter personally as well before camp. I also have access to a couple pairs of quality binos.

I have a lot of shooting accessories already from shooting like bags bipods slings and what not. We will probably need a couple more bags. Not sure which ones ill get yet.

Ammo is the biggest thing I'm racking my brain over. I'm thinking the 6 boys could/will shoot about 6000 rds over 4 days. It depends on weather and how we fill our day not burning powder. I'm really unsure what bullet I want to go with or need to go with. Barrel is 1-9 twist so I'm guessing somewhere in the 60-70 grain range will provide good performance out of the cartridge. I was thinking 75AMAX or some SMKs . I chose the AMAX because I liked the way they performed my creedmoors but am open to any bullet suggestions. Anytime we can save some coin and still have good performance will make me smile. I'm thinking the BTHPs may be a cheaper alternative. I'm thinking about buying 2000 loaded rounds from Copper Creek or Southwest Ammo and firing that the first and second day and reload the brass on the second day. It will be fun teaching and letting the boys develop a load for the guns and seeing how the seating depth and charges effect the bullet and group size. I also have no idea what powder I should be looking for .223 I've only ever loaded h-1000 and 4350 for magnum and creedmoors. Once the loads are developed. The boys will also reload the 4000 rds off the 2000 pieces of 1x brass. We have a couple Chargemasters and single stage stage presses , tumblers, hand primers(ugh). I'm thinking 1 guy cleaning necks and lubing cases, 1 guy sizing and depriming brass on press, 1 guy priming brass, 1 guy charging cases, and 1 guy seating bullets.

Or, we could just buy 6000 loaded rds shoot it and sell the 1x brass. What's .223 1x going these days anyways? I'm just trying to minimize ammo cost.

Aside from shooting paper I'm planning on having about 20-25 pieces of steel to shoot from full size IPSC to 3" diamond. Steel provides a lot of fun because of the feedback it provides both visually and audibly. Probably start by zeroing on paper at 100 practicing the fundamentals. NPOA, trigger pull and whatnot. From there we will probably move out to steel getting dope and solid velocity figures for the guns. Then we will probably shoot prairie dogs. Then probably back to steel. I'd like to do a practical type match with possible hunting scenarios like shooting off a fence post, truck, shooting stick and maybe offhand. Thinking about taking a sheet of plywood and cutting a life size deer out of it and then cutting the vital area out and mounting steel in the new hole making a realistic type target. Also making a couple Pdog shaped and sized target. Might do a competition for the longest Pdog kill or do a points tournament based on distance of kill. Steel will probably be arranged from 100-1000 maybe more depending on the accuracy of the guns.

I just wanted to put this out there and see what you guys thought. And I needed some advice on the .223.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Varget

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[BobM2]

You might consider the fixed 10x Bushnells you can get from Midway usually around $200.

 

[MarkCO]

The Savage is a good choice, however, given your task, I think I would choose a Mossberg MVP. They are very accurate and are actually a good trainer with the similar manual of arms to most DBM LR rigs. A few 5 round mags (uses AR-15 mags) and the boys can load their mags and be ready to go when the prior boy is finished. I just like the simplicity of the system.

With a 1-9, I'd stay at or under 69. The 68/69s should work, but you will get frustrated with 75s or 77s, and they cost more. The Nosler 60 grain Ballistic tip will do everything you need it to and it is very accurate. I'd suggest you look at TAC for a power. Have you tried to contact any ammo companies and see if you can get a case or two at a discount?

If you want to most bang for you optic dollars, look at the Burris MSR 4.5-14. It is a BDC reticle, but you can dial on it as well. Quality glass and street price is under $300. If you want to use a Mil reticle, look at the Burris MTAC 4.5-14. It will be less than the PST by about $300, has excellent glass and re-settable turrets. I've been using one on my .308 for the last year and head to head, it outperforms scopes costing several hundred more.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

The Savage is a good choice, however, given your task, I think I would choose a Mossberg MVP. They are very accurate and are actually a good trainer with the similar manual of arms to most DBM LR rigs. A few 5 round mags (uses AR-15 mags) and the boys can load their mags and be ready to go when the prior boy is finished. I just like the simplicity of the system.

With a 1-9, I'd stay at or under 69. The 68/69s should work, but you will get frustrated with 75s or 77s, and they cost more. The Nosler 60 grain Ballistic tip will do everything you need it to and it is very accurate. I'd suggest you look at TAC for a power. Have you tried to contact any ammo companies and see if you can get a case or two at a discount?

If you want to most bang for you optic dollars, look at the Burris MSR 4.5-14. It is a BDC reticle, but you can dial on it as well. Quality glass and street price is under $300. If you want to use a Mil reticle, look at the Burris MTAC 4.5-14. It will be less than the PST by about $300, has excellent glass and re-settable turrets. I've been using one on my .308 for the last year and head to head, it outperforms scopes costing several hundred more.

Thanks Mark for the input. I haven't messed with the Mossberg rifles at all. I don't know anyone that has one either. From what little Internet research they seem like a good rifle.

On the ammo thanks for input. Ill keep a lookout for something in the 60 grain range.

I have not contacted any potential sponsors like ammo, rifle, or scope. We haven't set the dates 100% in stone (more like 95%). I don't want to commit anything major until its 100%.

I'm hoping some sponsors will want to help as every little bit does help. I think the boys will really like it and want a gun like they shot at camp. They will also want to buy what they know.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

You might consider the fixed 10x Bushnells you can get from Midway usually around $200.

Thanks Bob, I forgot to mention when the rifles aren't being used for camps we will use them for youth hunts here in NC. I don't think a fixed 10x will work too well here.

 

[Ireight]

I don't know the level of knowledge your kids are starting with. But at 10-16 I wouldn't expect them to be ringing steel at 1000 with a .223. This is why I think you should have some .22s also this way you can work on fundamentals on day 1 with .22s then move up to the .223. I'm in Mandan ND just a 5-6 hr drive to Rapid. I prefer to teach the fundamentals with open sights. I'll loan 2 Henry lever .22s, a bolt savage .22, a remmy bolt .22 and also 2 lwrci AR type 5.56 with red dots. All you have to do is ask.
I think that variety in letting the kids try different things is really important. My lwrci's are .75 moa when I'm shooting prone no outside support with 69 gr hpbt


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[PowerstrokeOBX]

Long Range Summer camp thoughts, help, advice

I don't know the level of knowledge your kids are starting with. But at 10-16 I wouldn't expect them to be ringing steel at 1000 with a .223. This is why I think you should have some .22s also this way you can work on fundamentals on day 1 with .22s then move up to the .223. I'm in Mandan ND just a 5-6 hr drive to Rapid. I prefer to teach the fundamentals with open sights. I'll loan 2 Henry lever .22s, a bolt savage .22, a remmy bolt .22 and also 2 lwrci AR type 5.56 with red dots. All you have to do is ask.
I think that variety in letting the kids try different things is really important. My lwrci's are .75 moa when I'm shooting prone no outside support with 69 gr hpbt


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Ireight, I appreciate your suggestion. I think we are aiming for mature 10-16 year olds. I know of 2 that commited to going that know marksmanship fundamentals and safety very well. I have shot steel out to 500 with them and we were shooting 2.5 MOA steel at 300 yds with irons on my Daniel Defense AR. I'm hoping the rest of the boys already have the fundamentals down, but we will see.

I think we will stick with .22s the first day. I have a savage.22, browning, and couple Henry's we can use as well my family's.

I plan on bringing a couple of ARs as well. They are a blast to shoot (pardon the pun) and guys love them. Problem is they tend to burn through ammo fast.

I think we will have half a dozen Iron sighted 22s, 2 .223 ARs, SBR 308(fun flame thrower), 2-3 bolt .223s, and maybe my 6.5 SAUM (depends on how they are shooting already). I thought about doing some pistol but I am no pistolero and don't want to open another can of worms.

 

[Ireight]

It sounds like a lot of fun and I appreciate you doing that for the kids, I'd send my boys but they are 6 & 3, therefore not quite ready. My wife expects that I teach them to throw a rock literally then sling shot/ wrist rocket, then bow then .177 then firearm. You know all the basics.
But like I said I'm only 5 hours away so if you need anything. Also I'd love to come help but I'm deep in construction season in June.


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[bunsen27]

Take a look at the 111 Hog Hunter. The 12FV's are good rifles but that 26" barrel could be a touch too long and end heavy. With 1 in 9" stick with 69gr or less projectiles and although Varget is GREAT in .223's it's often about as hard to find as H4350, look at Win 748 and CFE223. ~24.5 25gr under a 69gr would be plenty fast enough for 400yd and in PDogs.

Vortex scopes are a great bang for the buck and there are several models in the 6-20x and 4-16x that won't break the bank. SFP 6-24x's would be ideal, but likely blow the budget. For a budget spotter take a look at Konus. It's not a Kowa, but for $230ish they are pretty darn good.

As for working on their fundamentals. I have the perfect rimfire match format, venue, and all the steel targets needed. I'll even donate 1k rounds of SK and some of my toys to shoot. Give me a call sometime after work and we can discuss details further.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Take a look at the 111 Hog Hunter. The 12FV's are good rifles but that 26" barrel could be a touch too long and end heavy. With 1 in 9" stick with 69gr or less projectiles and although Varget is GREAT in .223's it's often about as hard to find as H4350, look at Win 748 and CFE223. ~24.5 25gr under a 69gr would be plenty fast enough for 400yd and in PDogs.

Vortex scopes are a great bang for the buck and there are several models in the 6-20x and 4-16x that won't break the bank. SFP 6-24x's would be ideal, but likely blow the budget. For a budget spotter take a look at Konus. It's not a Kowa, but for $230ish they are pretty darn good.

As for working on their fundamentals. I have the perfect rimfire match format, venue, and all the steel targets needed. I'll even donate 1k rounds of SK and some of my toys to shoot. Give me a call sometime after work and we can discuss details further.

The Hog Hunter is 400$ MSRP less than the Precision Carbine and they are about the same thing. I'm tending to go savage or remington because I can get 30-40% off MSRP. They also have good aftermarket support for down the line.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Long Range Summer camp thoughts, help, advice

Camp is a GO! From July 13-19th. Got to start nailin some equipment down.

I just noticed it doesn't mention the hog hunter is drilled for scope mounts like some rifles it mentions it for. I tend to think it does, but ill double check.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Looks like the hog hunter is going to be the winner but we will know soon. Medium weight barrel 1-9 twist threaded for suppressor.

Hodgdon has graciously hooked up with us and we should have enough powder for a camp or two.