Longets conf. kill with irons...

BigBrother

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Minuteman
Feb 27, 2007
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Had originally posted this in ext. ballistics, but realized it's probably general enough and rifle specific to be here...

Just something I got to thinking about the other day..

We all know the classic stats for longest conf. kill for scoped rifles in different calibers, but I was curious if anyone ever saw an account or report, etc. of the longest confirmed kill with iron sights, in any caliber. I'd be talking about something in the past 30-40 years, not mass volley shots in WWI at 1500y
smile.gif


Also, not steel plinking or hunting- actual combat.

Anyone?
 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

Well I know a guy who was sniper with 3rd Army in Europe. He got hit early on after D Day and recuperated in England and was back in time to attend the social event known as the Battle of the Bulge and was in the relief column.
The event is documented in the unit history that was published about five years back wherein the company Clerk got everyone together and asked them to write of their experiences in the war.

Jack had absolutely no use for the 03A4 Springfield. He said his was a POS and first time somebody wanted to trade that had a M1 he could hit with he took it. Thusly he did all his sniping with the M1 and battle sights.


Jack caught a German running away from him on a opposite snow covered slope and he estimated the range and estimated the lead and he fired the first round which was a tracer he had bummed from the MG boys. He said he told everyone not to fire over one round of tracer to get the range and those that did bought the farm quickly.

The German was trying to run in knee deep snow and led him and squeezed it off and he dropped. He was as surprised as anyone that he had gone down and the mortar boys came forward an put the dead German at 700 yards. Not to mention the fact that tracer ammo does well to hit a double decker bus in the ass at that range makes it even more remarkable.

My Dad shot smallbore prone competition with him for many years and said he was quite a good shot. I know he was Georgia Smallbore champ.

Jacks rifle didn't survive the war. For those that have seen "Saving Private Ryan" there is a scene where the left hand sniper was quoting Bible verses as he was dropping bad guys as hard as he could go and he looked down and saw the barrel of a Tank Destroyer cranking up to get him. Jack said that scene is still burned into his memory as he saw the same thing and screamed for the guys to unass the room and he dove for the door and while he was in the air he remembered his rifle was standing next to the window (he was throwing Molotov Cocktails thus no rifle in hand) and he turned in the air and saw his M1 next to the window and knew there was no time to get it. Round came in and when the dust cleared he went back to get his M1 and round had centered the action. Thus he had to go out and find another.

There was payback as well. Jack got caught the open and 88s started coming and he got a load of shrapnel and went down. Two medics were working on him and were killed while working on him.
They got him out and to a fiaid station where rounds came in and killed the medic working on him there. An ambulance backed up tot he door and a 88 came in, turned the ambulance over killing the driver.

He got med evaced to states on that. Since the war he has had 47 surgeries to remove shrapnel. I visit him all the time. I was over at his house one day and he came walking out with a pair of shorts on and no shirt. My Dad had told me for years (they went to matches together all over southeast) that he was scarred to hell and gone and when I saw him it looked like he had been in a chain saw fight and his didn't start. He is covered from shoulder to feet (front and back) with scars from 2" to 6" long.

I just called and talked to another guy who was with 95th Division and has lots of trigger time in Europe. He said the average engagement range was 30 to 300 yards.

He said he was not personally aware of any long range shots though he said he got a couple in Bremmen at around 500.
 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

Some guy shot an Indian off a horse at around 1500Y with a Sharps type rifle sporting tangent sites during the late 1800's.

A friend sent the link to me a while back but I lost it.

Steve
 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

Both of them are. The second one stayed in the Army and in the 50s set a National Highpower Record with a Mod 70 Win. He said during the war he was dumb as a rock about shooting at long range but he was quick and deadly at close range. He is 81 now, carries a 45 and can smoke your ass at 1000 yards.

He said he joined in 44 and lied about his age to get in. When they landed in France they pulled right up to a dock and offloaded and formed up road march columns on each side of the road and headed into town where he saw his first dead GI. He was swinging from a lamp post with a sign around his neck that said, "RAPED A FRENCH GIRL".



He told me today they went into Hamm and there was this German truck about 600 yards away on another hill and they caught it in the open and two LMGs both dumped a belt at it and the whole platoon opened up on the guys in the truck.

When the Germans unassed the truck and had left out they crossed the low land and went up to the truck and he looked the truck over. It had one hole in it for about 700 rounds of firing (it went through the radiator).

He loaned his M1 to a guy for a patrol as he said his was being repaired at a field gun truck. Guy came back and gave him his rifle back and said nothing. Next day he went out and missed three in a row. They got to this town and there was a sign painted on a brick wall several blocks down and there was a "O" in one of the words so he used that to check his zero. His "buddy" had cranked the windage about four turns to the right and said nothing to him when he gave it back. On top of that it was a night patrol so no reason to screw with the sights. He said the next five were not as lucky and he never loaned his rifle out again.

Jack went into a Belgian town and got in a house that overlooked the town center and he saw this civilian talking to two German Officers so he watched them a bit.

The "civilian" was obviously giving the orders as the other two were at attention and nodding their heads. (Ok kiddies what's wrong with that picture?) The "civilian" was pointing this and that direction and the others were bobbing their heads they understood.
Jack shot the "civilian" across the town square and was way back in the room when he fired. He says he can't imagine why they got so pissed because when he high tailed it out the back-- the house collapsed from incoming fire from big stuff.

Jack operated by himself as they did not have spotters like they do now. He eased up on this high bank and peered over the edge down on to the road. There were two Germans having a arguement about which way to go (Jack speaks German, grew up with a German kid who lived upstairs in Georgia)so he got all set up and yelled "hands up" and thats when it hit the fan. Both decided to try him and turned to raise their 98s and Jack dropped them both.

I have read the unit history. Matter of fact I got the last copy that was not purchased by a member of the company as a couple apparently died while waiting for it to be printed. It is about 1 1/4" thick. The most amazing thing to read is how many of our guys got run over in the dark by our tankers. They lost as many from getting run over as they did fighting.

I asked him about it and he said some new guys set up in an area to bed down and the sergeant jumped their case and told them to move to another area. They got fired on that night;, causing a lot of commotion and next morning there were fresh tank tracks right where those guys were going to bed down.
 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some guy shot an Indian off a horse at around 1500Y with a Sharps type rifle sporting tangent sites during the late 1800's.

A friend sent the link to me a while back but I lost it.

Steve </div></div>

Billy Dixon, Adobe Walls.
 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some guy shot an Indian off a horse at around 1500Y with a Sharps type rifle sporting tangent sites during the late 1800's.

A friend sent the link to me a while back but I lost it.

Steve </div></div>

Billy Dixon, Adobe Walls. </div></div>

1,538 yards, just under seven-eights of a mile in 1874
 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

Not sure yet about distance, but here are some places to start digging:

"Even before firearms were available, soldiers such as archers were specially trained as elite marksmen. The following informational excerpts about selected snipers in history, are from various sources including Wikipedia."



Before the 20th century



Ninja or Shinobi (16th century Japan) – supposedly trained to cover retreating armies, targeting officers from concealed positions.One of Japan's most famous warlords, Takeda Shingen, was possibly fatally wounded by a sniper.

Lord Brooks, who represented the Parliamentarians in the English Civil War, was the first recorded British sniper victim.

Timothy Murphy (American Revolutionary War) – killed British General Simon Fraser during the pivotal Battle of Saratoga, hampering the British advance and causing them to lose the battle.

Patrick Ferguson (American Revolutionary War) - developer of the world's first breech-loaded military rifle (which advanced sniping and sharpshooting tactics), fought with his Corps of Riflemen (recruited from the 6th and 14th Foot) at the Battle of Brandywine, where he may have passed up a chance to shoot George Washington.

Napoleonic Wars – Use of Marine sharpshooters in the mast tops was common usage in navies of the period, and Admiral Nelson's death at Trafalgar is attributed to the actions of French Sharpshooters. The British Army developed the concept of directed fire (as opposed to massive unaimed volleys) and formed Rifle regiments, famously the 95th and the 60th who wore green jackets instead of the usual redcoats. Fighting as Skirmishers, usually in pairs and trusted to choose their own targets, they wrought havoc amongst the French during the peninsular war against Napoleon's Forces.

British Rifleman Thomas Plunkett (Peninsular war) – shot French General Colbert at a range of between 200 metres (219 yd) and 600 metres (656 yd) using a Baker rifle.

Colonel Hiram Berdan (American Civil War) – commanded 1st and 2nd US Sharpshooters, who were trained and equipped Union marksmen with the .52 caliber Sharps Rifle. It has been claimed that Berdan's units killed more enemies than any other in the Union Army.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Sgt. Grace (American Civil War) – sniped Major General John Sedgwick at the then incredible distance of 730 m (800 yd) during the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House, with a British Whitworth target rifle causing administrative delays in the Union's attack, leading to Confederate victory. <span style="font-style: italic">Sedgwick ignored advice to take cover, his last words according to urban legend being, "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-" upon which he was shot.</span> In reality, he was shot a few minutes later.</span>

Major Frederick Russell Burnham - assassinated Mlimo, the Ndebele religious leader, in his cave in Matobo Hills, Rhodesia, effectively ending the Second Matabele War (1896). Burnham started as a cowboy and Indian tracker in the American Old West, but he left the United States to scout in Africa and went on to command the British Army Scouts in the Second Boer War. For his ability to track, even at night, the Africans dubbed him, He-who-sees-in-the-dark, but in the press he became more widely known as England's American Scout.



20th century



Billy Sing (Gallipoli Campaign, World War I) - killed between 150 and 201 Turkish soldiers.

- Francis Pegahmagabow (World War I) - Native Canadian sniper credited with 378 kills

<span style="font-weight: bold">- Finnish Lance Corporal Simo Häyhä, aka "Valkoinen Kuolema" (the White Death) was a sniper during the Winter War and is regarded by many as the most effective sniper in the history of warfare, <span style="font-style: italic">being credited with killing up to 542 Soviet soldiers (an average of 5 a day) using a SAKO m/28-30 (Pystykorva) and iron sights</span>.</span>

Junior Lieutenant Vasily Zaytsev (World War II) – credited with killing 225 German soldiers during the Battle of Stalingrad, he is famously portrayed in the film Enemy at the Gates and in the book War of the Rats; both however are fictionalized accounts.

Gefreiter (Private) Matthias Hetzenauer (World War II) - Austrian sniper who was credited with 345 kills on the Eastern Front, the most successful in the Wehrmacht.

Obergefreiter (Private First Class) Josef 'Sepp' Allerberger (World War II) - Austrian sniper credited with 257 kills on the Eastern Front.

Lieutenant Lyudmila Pavlichenko (World War II) – female Soviet sniper with 309 confirmed kills, making her the most successful female sniper in history.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Zhang Tao fang, (Chinese: &#24352;&#26691;&#33459;; Traditional Chinese: &#24373;&#26691;&#33459;; Wade-Giles: Zhang Tao-fang) (1931 – April 29, 2007) was a Chinese soldier during the Korean War, and is one of the most successful snipers in history. <span style="font-style: italic">He is credited with 214 confirmed kills in 32 days without using a sniper magnifying scope</span></span>

Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock (Vietnam war) – achieved 93 confirmed kills. He held the record of longest confirmed kill at a distance of 2,250 m (2,460 yd) (made with a scoped M2 Browning machine gun) for 35 years until 2002.

Chuck Mawhinney (Vietnam war) – 103 confirmed and 216 probable kills.

Adelbert F . Waldron (Vietnam war) – achieved 109 confirmed kills.

Master Sgt. Gary Gordon and Sgt. First Class Randy Shughart - Operation Gothic Serpent - Delta Force snipers awarded the Medal of Honor for their actions protecting the injured crew of a downed helicopter during the Battle of Mogadishu. Dramatized in the film Black Hawk Down.

Simo Häyhä (December 17, 1905 – April 1, 2002), nicknamed "White Death" (Russian: &#1041;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072;&#1103; &#1057;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1090;&#1100;, Belaya Smert; Finnish: Valkoinen kuolema; Swedish: den Vita Döden) by the Soviet army, was a Finnish soldier. Using a standard iron-sighted, bolt action rifle in the Winter War, he had the highest recorded number of kills as a sniper in any major war. In temperatures between &#8722;20 and &#8722;40 degrees Celsius (&#8722;4 and &#8722;40 degrees Fahrenheit), dressed completely in a white camouflage suit, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers, and 542 if including the unconfirmed deaths. The unofficial Finnish frontline figure from the battlefield of Kollaa places the number of Häyhä's sniper kills over 800. A daily account of the kills at Kollaa was conducted for the Finnish snipers. Besides his sniper kills, Häyhä was also credited with over two hundred kills with a Suomi KP/-31 submachine gun, thus bringing his credited kills to at least 705. All of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in less than 100 days.



21st century



Canadian soldier Corporal Rob Furlong, formerly of the PPCLI (Operation Anaconda, Afghanistan) - holds the record for the longest-ever recorded and confirmed sniper kill at 2,430 meters (1.509 miles) using a .50 caliber (12.7 mm) McMillan TAC-50 rifle.

U.S. Army Staff Sergeant Timothy L. Kellner - regarded as one of the top snipers still active in the U.S. Army with 139 confirmed kills and over 100 unconfirmed during Operation Iraqi Freedom

Canadian soldier Master Corporal Arron Perry, formerly of the PPCLI (Operation Anaconda, Afghanistan) - briefly held the record for the longest-ever recorded and confirmed sniper kill at 2,310 meters (1.435 miles) after eclipsing US Marine Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock's previous record of 2,286 meters (1.420 miles) until it was later eclipsed by fellow Canadian Corporal Rob Furlong. Hathcock's record had stood for thirty five years. Perry used a .50 caliber (12.7 mm) McMillan TAC-50 rifle.

 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

I read somewhere that Hayha refused to use a scope as it "placed his head too high, and made him more of a target." All of his shots were made with irons, so that counts for something.
 
Re: Longets conf. kill with irons...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apache</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read somewhere that Hayha refused to use a scope as it "placed his head too high, and made him more of a target." All of his shots were made with irons, so that counts for something. </div></div>

So goes the legend, yes. Ironically, he wore a white suit and face cover with small slits for his eyes, but no camoflage on his rifle in the few pictures I've seen. I can't dig up any info on how long his shots were. Still, just damn, especially when you add this:

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Besides his sniper kills, Häyhä was also credited with over two hundred kills with a Suomi KP/-31 submachine gun, thus bringing his credited kills to at least 705. All of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in less than 100 days.</span></span>