Looking for advice on an affordable .308/7.62x51 Mil Semi

[Greg Langelius *]

Interested in advice on types of rifles, not individual rifle purchase/sale offers. I'd like to know what's available that's an affordable mil spec 7.62x51 basic battle rifle. Nothing special, no frills, not a precision rifle, just a good, reliable rifle for general purpose use. I've had the M1A and loved it, but it's more rifle than I'd be looking for now. This is not a purchase-driven search, but rather a familiarization with various options.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

TIA,

Greg

 

[isofahunter]

I have a DPMS Recon G2 and it has become my regular going to the Ranch Rifle. I have used it to hit steel out to 500 and last week shot a big Axis buck with it at 342 yards. I have been running 178gr Amax and ELDX in it and have be crafting a new load for 155 ELDM to pick up some speed but after the performance last week I might drop the project. The trigger is ok on mine not great not terrible 4.5 lbs. The hand guard sucks and IMO needs to be replaced, I use an MidWest Ind on mine and it changes the whole feel of the rig (you have to buy a DPMS G2 hand guard not just any AR10) It wears a AAC 7.62SDN all the time ,if you are going to use a suppressor you have to add an adjustable gas block. One more negative disclosure when I got mine the firing pin kept piercing primers, sent it in and they fixed it and my understanding is the earlier models had a firing pin hole that was too large and they swapped the bolt and it has been solid ever since. DPMS paid shipping both ways so while the product was defective they did everything to make it right. My 2 cents on the matter take it for what it is worth.

 

[flyer]

You've got M1A, Navy Garand, FAL, Cetme, and HK G3 as options. Of those, only the Navy Garand was an issued military weapon, the rest are either expensive semi-auto variants of military designs or copies built with surplus parts kits.

Not quite Mil spec but possibly a better rifle for the money is a large frame AR.

I would get an M5E1 upper, lower, handguard and LPK from Aero Precision for around $500, I would try a KAC (or KAK?) budget 16" .308 barrel (Green Mountain blank) for about $125, a Toolcraft BCG for about $140, a POF P308 buffer setup for about $80 then add a carbine stock of your choice, gas block, gas tube, roll pin and muzzle device.

Chances are it would be as accurate as any MBR, pretty durable and easy to find parts for going forward.

The Cetme/G3 might be cheaper up front but that would definitely be a copy and some of those are known for having issues. Do a lot of research before going down that road.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Flyer, you have my attention.

After (I know, I know, I should have looked first...) I posted, I did a quick search for 7.62x51 service rifles, and came up with a cross section of rifles like your first list, and a lot of AR-10 style systems.

Your build list also has my attention; I would only substitute a moderately good grade barrel in 20-22" length, with rifle length gas, and build something fixed from the Luth AR MBA-2 line, adding the LOP adjuster and Limbsaver slip-on to add that other inch of LOP and also mitigate some recoil. It is because of potential recoil magnitude (I have bone structure issues with my sternum that mitigate against significantly larger recoil) that I'm not all that interested in weight reduction.

I just popped out and back to look at Lothar-Walther, and they have a .308/24" stainless barrel listing at $495; steep, but for L-W, not unreasonable.

I just finished a lightweight 16" AR15 and did this MBA setup, with the LOP coming out perfect in the finger on trigger, Limbsaver against the inner elbow relationship. Since my philosophy is to only have as many Lowers as there are shooters in the house, that AR15 has four uppers that it can dance with, not counting my Granddaughter's 24' Stag 6 Upper that's roughly identical (differing Optic/Mount) to my LR setup.

The 20-22" length, preferably the latter, is to allow M1a ballistics with ammo like the 7.62x51 IMI 150gr. It is because of potential recoil magnitude (I have bone structure issues with my sternum that mitigate against significantly larger recoil) that I'm not all that interested in weight reduction.

Then, I also went to my goto AR maker, Stag, and gave their stuff the once-over. Delightful but pricey, and not all that much unlike the rest of the industry's AR-10 pricing approach; which put me right back onto your build list.

My biggest concern is about cobbling together gas systems and buffers, and any resultant cycling mismatch/issues.

I had opportunity to spend an afternoon shooting MEN Berdan 150gr 7.62x51 ball from an FN-FAL, and it had some issues with doubling. I had some small experience with doubling in my Garand and M1a, and that was a trigger mishandling issue. The FAL was something different, and I don't want one because of that. IMHO, rifles that double are wasting that second shot, and can attract the wrong kind of attention as well.

Finally, do any of the AR-10 uppers have any compatibility with M-14 magazines?

Greg

 

[flyer]

The LR308/SR25 style magazine works fine and is widely available and cheap with the Magpul and other offerings. A M14 magazine would be a step backward in my opinion.

The LR308 style rifle is a bit like an AR15, it's a bit more picky but several combinations will pretty much fall together and work.

I suggest the POF buffer system because it is one stop shopping for an AR10 style setup that uses AR15 style carbine buffers. If you need to tune with a heavier buffer, you have off the shelf options.

If you wind up over-gassed, you can add an adjustable gas block or gas key. That's a bit of money but a relatively easy fix.

Beside the cost, I mentioned the KAK barrel because they seem to use the same bolt headspace measurement as the Toolcraft BCG. That seems to be the most common standard and the Toolcraft BCG is the cheapest out there (but nicely made) so I try to stick with that.

One more thing, everything I suggest is LR308 style except the buffer system which I suggest for AR15 buffer compatibility, not AR10 compatibility.

LR308 is more common and there are some unfortunately incompatible AR10 clones which just muddy the waters when you're choosing parts.

The Aero Precision parts I suggest have a good combination of quality, compatibility and low price. The M5E1 handguard in particular is a good deal because it does not make sense to me to build a LR308 with standard handguards and the M5E1 winds up pretty cheap compared to a standard upper with a separately bought high quality free float rail. The only thing cheaper is a DPMS free float tube or a copy. They work but aren't sexy at all.

One possible compatibility issue with Aero Precision is trying to run an Aero Precision upper on some other LR308 style lower. They aren't always going to line up right which is why I suggest a matching upper and lower.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Finally, do any of the AR-10 uppers have any compatibility with M-14 magazines?
Greg

The only way you could use your existing magazines would be to find an older Armalite AR10 B model and then modify your magazines by cutting the hole for the mag catch. I think you would probably have to change the follower as well. You might drop Armalite a line about that if interested, that's what they had to do during the AWB.

As cheap as the Aero receivers are, I'd probably go that way. Unless you're buying KAC mags, they're pretty cheap for Magpuls or IMI from Aim Surplus. I'm sure you could sell your M14 mags to someone.

Then again, if you could find an upper receiver and complete lower receiver that is a B model you might be able to pick it up cheap as everybody wants the now A model Armalite for the SR25 mag compatibility. I would think you'd need some luck for that though.

 

[W54/XM-388]

H&K makes a AR10 type platform (with a bunch of mods), that is starting to see deployed usage in a number of countries.
It is however a bit on the expensive side, even for the civilian models.

 

[flyer]

I would stay away from anything not currently in production (AR10 B) and I would really recommend the LR308 because it has the best selection of ~compatible parts.

The large frame AR market is quite fractured, don't pick out an orphan.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

OK, folks, I got what I needed to know. I've made a few decision; first, to take my time and do due diligence about what I really want, so I don't get caught up in back and forth, ending up with more guns than I need. The second is to leave those 10rd M1a magazines up on that shelf for the time being. Finally, I need to grasp reality better and accept that AR-10 setups are costlier.

I keep going back to the Stag site, keeping foremost in mind that a complete factory system is likeliest to be well integrated, and properly tuned for its primary use. That alone is worth something of a premium to me. Forgetting about 24" barrels and face slapping myself that the initial inquiry was about a basic MBR style firearm, and that's where my interest should stay firmly attached.

Flyer, I am especially grateful for the in-depth detail and sage experience your posts share. It helped me firm up my goals and expectations, even if it led me into a different direction that doing a build. Your attention and effort are not wasted.

Thanks to all. I gained an education.

Greg

 

[Jefe's Dope]

My PSA AR10 was about $800 before optics and upgrades. It's been solid since I've finished it w/ the Gen II upper and a flat wound recoil spring.

 

[Mute]

If you want a good value on something reliable get either a complete rifle from Aero Precision or a S&W MP10.

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you want a good value on something reliable get either a complete rifle from Aero Precision or a S&W MP10.

I have one of the S&W MP10 rifles in .308, it is very lightweight and ran without hiccup straight out of the box.
If you want factory, light & inexpensive, it is hard to beat

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Palmetto State Armory, gen II. Kit runs 519 an a reciever is 99 or buy a complete lower for 179.99 free shipping an add the upper of your choice. Bought two of them back when they were cheap. Ones a 14.5" with a pinned brake, the other is a 18" with a brake. Both are very pleasant to shoot, mags are cheap. Added the enhanced extractor an mine have been just as trustworthy as my m14. Rain, mud, sand, ice, snow they just run. I tuned up the triggers instead of the upgraded triggers, but the next one I'd just buy the better triggers an be done with it. The Gen II's are lighter an somewhat smaller than most std AR 10's

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Yes, my buddy has a PSA AR10 he built and he likes his a lot, too.

Greg

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

My 14.5" is topped with a Aimpoint Comp 4, an the 18" has a 3x9x40 Redfield. Both are very quick pointing an with the brakes the followups are fast. I use the 14.5" far more than the 18 as it's just a shade lighter, but points faster an easier to store. 600yds with a 147fmjbt is doable but it requires a burn rate in the IMR3031 or H-335 range w/ such a short barrel. Although I also use H335 with great results in the 18" as well.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Yes, my buddy has a PSA AR10 he built and he likes his a lot, too.

Greg

I can't verify it 100% but there's quite a few mentions on other sites that PSA receivers are actually machined by Aero. I have built one using their receivers as well as Aeros. Aeros are more refined but the PSA always goes bang with a Timney and BA 18" rifle gas. If you do decide to use PSA and decide to buy a rail, order a DPMS low height model.

 

[schlaiek]

I think a 16" or 18" medium contour barrel is the sweet spot for a large frame AR in 308. You loose some FPS, but gain agility which is a trade off I've made in a 308 (longer barreled large frames should be creedmore IMO). I really like the Rainier branded barrels (I think they are still shillen) for the money. and like many have mentioned, make sure your upper will line up with your handguard - there are several heights. I love my M1A, but the ergos, aftermarket, cost, mag cost/availability, and weight all heavily favor the AR10, especially if you want to mount optics.

a matched pair of Aero upper & lower would be a very cost effective way to start, or a blem PSA if you are on an even tighter budget. I've never owned barrels from either, but their uppers/lowers are a great value. My Dad's S&W AR10 is also a great place to start, though I've always built and don't know how the S&W pencil barrel would work with long strings.

 

[flyer]

I'm not a fan of PSA's large frame AR. Their first revision was a proprietary and not very compatible version and they called it a PA10 which makes people think it's an AR10 copy although it is much more LR308. It had some quality issues too.

Their new version is a "Gen 2" which I think is confusing with the DPMS Gen 2. As far as operation goes, it seems to be better but their 6.5 Creedmoor version doesn't seem as accurate as you should want if you're buying that caliber. I think anyone who makes a 6.5 Creedmoor that can't shoot sub MOA with Hornady box ammo isn't trying hard enough. I haven't heard of a PSA shooting that well unless it's had some work done.

It's not too hard or that much more expensive to build a 1/2 MOA 6.5 Creedmoor LR308 so I can't recommend PSA.

I'm not sure about Stag or S&W, I just know it has been pretty easy for me to build my Aero Precision M5E1 exactly how I want it and "buy once, cry once" except an Aero build is pretty cheap as large frame ARs go.

I know of one person that bought a PA10 and then tore out most everything beside the receivers, buffer tube and LPK to replace it all with $$$ JP parts. It turned out very accurate but if he ever has to sell, those PSA parts are going to pull down the price a lot. I think he could have made out better starting with parts than a PSA too.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Could be wrong but I don't think the OP is looking for a target gun, he said he was looking for a 7.62x51 basic battle rifle.

 

[powerspc]

I can highly recommend LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool) CQBMWSF in 7.62x51 (.308). These things are built like tanks and were adopted by the British Military back in 2011 to serve as their DMR rifle (called the L129A1). One thing not widely known about LMT is that KAC (Knights Armament) uses LMT lowers manufactured under contract. The Kiwi’s (New Zealand Defence Force) also just selected LMT to replace the Steyr AUG.

LMT uses a quick change barrel system (two bolts) that will also allow you to reconfigure the rifle in 6.5CM, .243 Win, .260 Rem, .338 Fed or 7mm-08 Rem. They are phenomenal rifles, I own two in 7.62, a 16” chrome lined and a 13.5” chrome lined. You can also get a 20” chrome lined in the 7.62 caliber. They are beautifully built, highly capable rifles.

 

[powerspc]

P.s. I should have probably also mentioned the SCAR 17S which I also own. In fact it’s probably difficult to have a discussion around a 7.62 battle rifle without mentioning the SCAR as it is considered by many to be the quintessential battle rifle in that caliber. My issue with the SCAR is not performance related; it’s relatively light compared to others in its class, well balanced, accurate, durable and battle tested without question or reserve.

My issue is with FN and the ability to source parts should that ever become necessary. They are not built to service the Commercial market; they are the number one small arms provider to the US Military (think M4, M16, MK46, MK48 and M240) and that is the market they are built for. Everything on a SCAR is proprietary; when I needed to replace a complete bolt assembly for my 17 that became an exercise in futility like no other. I’ll cut to the end of the story, it took me 2-1/2 years to get a replacement. Barring that, they are superb rifles and arguably THE 7.62x51mm battle rifle.

 

[schlaiek]

the initial cost of the SCAR is also quite high, as is the limited list of upgrades available. I sold mine years ago and have regrets about that, but not enough to buy another. I didn't care for the non-reciprocating charging handle, the short handguard, and the fit & finish of the stock. The latter two issues can be resolved but then you are adding several hundred dollars of cost to an already expensive rifle - almost getting into Knights SR25 territory.

another option that isn't available yet would be the Tavor7 or Galil Ace, which you can pickup now. I don't own either but I'm intrigued by both rifles.

 

[powerspc]

Good pickup on the IWI Tavor 7, I am also waiting on that one. The UPC's and SKU's are showing up on the Distributors websites now so hopefully won't be too much longer before they come in stock. Everything I've read so far has been favorable.; they should come in at retail cost just a whisper under $2K.

 

[schlaiek]

I was given an initial quote of $1700 to $1800 from a local dealer on the Tavor7 - basically the same as the X95 or SAR when they were released. Both of the 556 carbines can be had for less than that now, but the new offering will probably demand more for the first few batches. as always, I'll wait for reviews & such. I learned my lesson on the MDR pre-order. I ordered from Eurooptic and they allowed me to cancel w/o any hassle.

 

[powerspc]

I would say that is a very good (competitive) price on that rifle. There's a lot of reviews online out there from SHOT and some of the bigger gun rags.

 

[Cavitation]

Windam Weaponry and done. Just to muddy the waters some more.
These guys know AR15s and AR10 platforms. Being the old Bushmaster crew they are fantastic to deal with. You can get one much less than MSRP They worked with POF on these AR10 style rifles in development.

Windam Weaponry

 

[schlaiek]

I'd steer clear of Windam unless they've fixed all of the problems/baggage associated with what Bushmaster became. Regarding POF, I've read way to many horror stories and see a disproportionate number of them shit the bed to ever think they were worth a darn. If they charged DPMS prices that'd be one thing, but they don't.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

My issue is with FN and the ability to source parts should that ever become necessary. They are not built to service the Commercial market; they are the number one small arms provider to the US Military (think M4, M16, MK46, MK48 and M240) and that is the market they are built for. Everything on a SCAR is proprietary; when I needed to replace a complete bolt assembly for my 17 that became an exercise in futility like no other. I’ll cut to the end of the story, it took me 2-1/2 years to get a replacement. Barring that, they are superb rifles and arguably THE 7.62x51mm battle rifle.

PSA is generally accepted as the commercial market suppliers of FN. IOW, it appears PSA sources many if not all of their parts from FN. They appear to be connected in some manner.

 

[powerspc]

Yup, they'll send you to Midwest Gun Works as well; try and find a complete bolt assembly for a SCAR 17S. Unless they've relabeled them as "sold out" you'll be looking for a very long time. In fairness I think they are getting better or at least I think they are trying to but its really just to compare and contrast the difference between an AR platform and the SCAR. SCAR's are awesome, but the initial buy-in is steep and parts are not going to be found at your local gun store; they're are expensive and difficult to come by.

 

[SFree]

Armalite Defender, AR-10a. Simple, inexpensive, and produced by the ones who have at least 20+ years in the large frame series. Now even better in that they use Pmags. Also, very reliable and my wife shoots them easily.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Wow, and I thought this topic was done. Thanks for all the additional info, it helps.

At one time, I really enjoyed my M1a, but that had to go away one dark and sad day.

Greg

 

[BCP]

When I finally get out of California I'm gonna buy a pair of Larue kit rifles, one in 556 and the other 308. He has it set up where you can pick out different calibers/barrel lengths/colors etc. The PWS rifles are nice if you want a piston. Very little recoil for a 30cal too.

The really cheap "battle rifles" I've owned never made me happy. My PTR belonged at the bottom of a lake.

Still have an M1A but yeah, money pit.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I have built an AR15 Upper, and an AR15 Lower, as well as putting together a kit rifle. I saved quite a bit, and the resulting firearm works as expected. I would definitely prefer buying a kit to building from parts, and like the kit better than the price of the complete rifle. I fully expect that this is a very normal outlook. I will look at Larue Kits.

Greg

 

[powerspc]

Build an AR15, yes. But OP was asking about 7.62 (.308) rifles. Much harder to build since uppers, lowers, barrels, buffers, springs tend to lean towards the standards of the manufacturer and often don't play well together when you mix and match. Can it be done? Of course. Is it worth it? I personally don't see the point, in fact I would hazard it is cheaper to just buy a complete rifle.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I am the OP, and I was stressing that my actual knowledge ends with the AR15 because I expect the AR10's to be less standardized, and more finicky.

I completely agree with you, which is why I lean more toward a complete kit approach. At least the provider had to make some of them actually work.

Greg

 

[schlaiek]

unless you are buying a budget rifle, I think building will always be cheaper, assuming you have the skill or access to the skill to assemble the rifle correctly (and safely). The AR10 world is definitely trickier than the AR15 world, but with some research and common sense you can easily put together the exact rifle you want. questions, call the manufacturer to confirm comparability. In my experience most of non-mainstream (i.e. large) companies are small shops that have excellent CS and will bend over backwards to assist you. (confirm your BCG will work with their upper (just an example) and they recommend brand X's rail)