Hello guys, this is my first post, I just signed up today. I just got out of the Marine Corps, and I am tired of the 5.56, seen too many bad things happen to good guys because of the lack of ballistics in the 5.56 round. I just sold my standard Springfield M1A in an effort to buy a 7.62 CQB rifle. I recently purchased an Armalite AR-10t and mounted a Leatherwood ART M1200 scope on it for my long range needs. Don't know if I am satisfied with that over my Springfield though. I have been looking into the Springfield Socom II. What are your thoughts on that rifle?
- Thread starter dahsma
- Start date
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
LMT MWS search it here lots of info.I've been very very happy with mine MOA or better with a chromelined 16" 308.Whats not to like.Quick change barrles so any caliber in the 308 family is two screws away.
Oh welcome to the Hide.
LMT MWS search it here lots of info.I've been very very happy with mine MOA or better with a chromelined 16" 308.Whats not to like.Quick change barrles so any caliber in the 308 family is two screws away.
Oh welcome to the Hide.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
+1 for the MWS. Recoil is manageable even when run through CQB drills however any flaw in stance or grip will result in a follow-up shot not as tight as it would be with a 5.56
+1 for the MWS. Recoil is manageable even when run through CQB drills however any flaw in stance or grip will result in a follow-up shot not as tight as it would be with a 5.56
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dahsma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just sold my standard Springfield M1A in an effort to buy a 7.62 CQB rifle. </div></div>
Consider a 16.25" or an 18.0" M14/M1A in this stock.
GEN 3 SRSS BullDog 762 BullPup M14
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dahsma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just sold my standard Springfield M1A in an effort to buy a 7.62 CQB rifle. </div></div>
Consider a 16.25" or an 18.0" M14/M1A in this stock.
GEN 3 SRSS BullDog 762 BullPup M14
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Consider a 16.25" or an 18.0" M14/M1A in this stock.
GEN 3 SRSS BullDog 762 BullPup M14 </div></div>
That looks like it'd rattle a filling or two lose!!!
Pretty interesting setup...first M1A/M14 bullpup design I remember seeing!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Consider a 16.25" or an 18.0" M14/M1A in this stock.
GEN 3 SRSS BullDog 762 BullPup M14 </div></div>
That looks like it'd rattle a filling or two lose!!!
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
7.62 isn't synonymous with Close Quarters Battle....in all reality my go to CQB gun would be a SBR 11.5" AR.
7.62 isn't synonymous with Close Quarters Battle....in all reality my go to CQB gun would be a SBR 11.5" AR.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
perfect cqb weapon is a 6.8spc 8.5" AR IMO. i hate 5.56. 7.62 is so so as a cqb weapon.
how about a noveske leonidas? SCAR SBR?
perfect cqb weapon is a 6.8spc 8.5" AR IMO. i hate 5.56. 7.62 is so so as a cqb weapon.
how about a noveske leonidas? SCAR SBR?
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7.62 isn't synonymous with Close Quarters Battle....in all reality my go to CQB gun would be a SBR 11.5" AR. </div></div>
Deadly is right. I also think a SBR AR is the way to go.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HDC-Deadly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7.62 isn't synonymous with Close Quarters Battle....in all reality my go to CQB gun would be a SBR 11.5" AR. </div></div>
Deadly is right. I also think a SBR AR is the way to go.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
I'd consider the amount of recoil and time lag between followup shots with a 308. CQB guns should have a very stable platform with little recoil and rock solid dependability. That's why the H&K MP5 is a favorite to this day. Full auto,controlled pairs you name the amount of rounds and they're all delivered exactly where you want every time.An AR15 16 inch barrel in your favorite configuration would be a winner.I like the Colt 6920 with the folding stock collapsed all the way to save inches without having to get the tax stamp.If that's not a concern then I'd go with a commando length (10 inch).Helps tremendously in tight spaces.Optics and lights to your preference. Keep in mind CQB distance 10 yards and in.
You're probably used to military spec ammo in 556/223. I'd suggest taking a look at Federal TRU 55 grain hollow points. Not the round of choice at long distance but out to 300yds it's minute of center mass.I've seen several times when this round has been used in CQB applications.It doesn't over penetrate and I've yet to see someone survive getting hit with it.
That 308 round in your house or urban area is a potential liability. Over penetration is to be expected.Not the characteristic most desirable when friendlies/family are in the same area and possibly exposed to this round after it exits your intended target.
Sorry for the long winded post. Last but certainly not least, Thank you for your service.
I'd consider the amount of recoil and time lag between followup shots with a 308. CQB guns should have a very stable platform with little recoil and rock solid dependability. That's why the H&K MP5 is a favorite to this day. Full auto,controlled pairs you name the amount of rounds and they're all delivered exactly where you want every time.An AR15 16 inch barrel in your favorite configuration would be a winner.I like the Colt 6920 with the folding stock collapsed all the way to save inches without having to get the tax stamp.If that's not a concern then I'd go with a commando length (10 inch).Helps tremendously in tight spaces.Optics and lights to your preference. Keep in mind CQB distance 10 yards and in.
You're probably used to military spec ammo in 556/223. I'd suggest taking a look at Federal TRU 55 grain hollow points. Not the round of choice at long distance but out to 300yds it's minute of center mass.I've seen several times when this round has been used in CQB applications.It doesn't over penetrate and I've yet to see someone survive getting hit with it.
That 308 round in your house or urban area is a potential liability. Over penetration is to be expected.Not the characteristic most desirable when friendlies/family are in the same area and possibly exposed to this round after it exits your intended target.
Sorry for the long winded post. Last but certainly not least, Thank you for your service.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Plus the biggest issue is everyone know that over penetration means less knock down. Sending lead down range into the house next door sounds like a bad idea. Get a gun that will work then buy the ammo for what you need.
Plus the biggest issue is everyone know that over penetration means less knock down. Sending lead down range into the house next door sounds like a bad idea. Get a gun that will work then buy the ammo for what you need.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Theirs always the 7.62x39mm for an AK platform if you like them. If you like the AR platform look into the new .300 Blackout or 6.8 spc. Civilian 5.56mm ammo is 10X better than military ball ammo. Not really even comparable when you use quality expanding ammo. As far as the Socom 2 goes screw that! The front rail is a freaking cheese grater that adds more weight to an already muzzle heavy rifle. I have the Socom 16 and love it! I added a small rail to the bottom and there's plenty of after market rails for the top. Adding a couple of extra rails to a Socom 16 will be lighter and cheaper than a Socom 2 as well as more comfortable.
Here are a few others:
http://www.dsarms.com/Mini-SA58-FAL-OSW-Rifle-Semi-Auto-308-Cal----SA58OSW/productinfo/SA58OSW/
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/rfb/
http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=234&idcategory=25
http://www.pof-usa.com/pdw/pdw308.htm
http://www.pof-usa.com/p308/p30814.htm
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/rifle/hk/pagegalleryhk.shtml
http://www.autoweapons.com/photosv/hk51b.html
http://www.law-17.com/hk51.html
Theirs a shit ton more out there. Google short barrel 7.62x51mm.
Theirs always the 7.62x39mm for an AK platform if you like them. If you like the AR platform look into the new .300 Blackout or 6.8 spc. Civilian 5.56mm ammo is 10X better than military ball ammo. Not really even comparable when you use quality expanding ammo. As far as the Socom 2 goes screw that! The front rail is a freaking cheese grater that adds more weight to an already muzzle heavy rifle. I have the Socom 16 and love it! I added a small rail to the bottom and there's plenty of after market rails for the top. Adding a couple of extra rails to a Socom 16 will be lighter and cheaper than a Socom 2 as well as more comfortable.
Here are a few others:
http://www.dsarms.com/Mini-SA58-FAL-OSW-Rifle-Semi-Auto-308-Cal----SA58OSW/productinfo/SA58OSW/
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/rfb/
http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=234&idcategory=25
http://www.pof-usa.com/pdw/pdw308.htm
http://www.pof-usa.com/p308/p30814.htm
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/rifle/hk/pagegalleryhk.shtml
http://www.autoweapons.com/photosv/hk51b.html
http://www.law-17.com/hk51.html
Theirs a shit ton more out there. Google short barrel 7.62x51mm.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
The MWS is more of a DMR rifle then a handy CQB rifle. If you must have 308, look into the Scar Heavy and the KAC SR25EMC. Both of those would be lighter and handier then the MWS.
The MWS is more of a DMR rifle then a handy CQB rifle. If you must have 308, look into the Scar Heavy and the KAC SR25EMC. Both of those would be lighter and handier then the MWS.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
The Springfield SOCOMs don't seem to hold together that well with hard use. If your going to go with an M1A/M14 type rifle I wouldn't go shorter than 18" and have it built by Smith Enterprises. Keep in mind a quality built M1A variant is going to cost you a bit more than an .308 AR.
After screwing with a bunch of different .308 platforms I've gone with an LMT MWS. It's a heavy bitch but it handles pretty well using irons and has been dead nutz reliable. It's muzzle blast will knock your fillings out in confined spaces but it definitely leaves a mark downrange.
While a short .308 can do CQB, a shorter 5.56 variant works better.
The Springfield SOCOMs don't seem to hold together that well with hard use. If your going to go with an M1A/M14 type rifle I wouldn't go shorter than 18" and have it built by Smith Enterprises. Keep in mind a quality built M1A variant is going to cost you a bit more than an .308 AR.
After screwing with a bunch of different .308 platforms I've gone with an LMT MWS. It's a heavy bitch but it handles pretty well using irons and has been dead nutz reliable. It's muzzle blast will knock your fillings out in confined spaces but it definitely leaves a mark downrange.
While a short .308 can do CQB, a shorter 5.56 variant works better.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postal0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The MWS is more of a DMR rifle then a handy CQB rifle. If you must have 308, look into the Scar Heavy and the KAC SR25EMC. Both of those would be lighter and handier then the MWS.</div></div>
I favor the ergonomics of the MWS over the SCAR-H. The SR25EMC is overpriced at double that of a MWS. Is that really worth one pound? Personally, I like the heft of the front-heavy MWS as it helps reduce muzzle flip of the larger round.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postal0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The MWS is more of a DMR rifle then a handy CQB rifle. If you must have 308, look into the Scar Heavy and the KAC SR25EMC. Both of those would be lighter and handier then the MWS.</div></div>
I favor the ergonomics of the MWS over the SCAR-H. The SR25EMC is overpriced at double that of a MWS. Is that really worth one pound? Personally, I like the heft of the front-heavy MWS as it helps reduce muzzle flip of the larger round.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
If you are dead set on the 7.62, the M1A/M14 in the BullDog is pretty awesome. I've got one with a full size national match. Holds 1.5 MOA reliably, is as short as an M4, and can reach out if you need to. Can't really shoot it left handed though, it weighs a TON (though the bullpup design helps keep that managable) and the trigger sucks. I LOVE my M1A in the BullDog, but it does have some downsides...
Where are you located now?
If you are dead set on the 7.62, the M1A/M14 in the BullDog is pretty awesome. I've got one with a full size national match. Holds 1.5 MOA reliably, is as short as an M4, and can reach out if you need to. Can't really shoot it left handed though, it weighs a TON (though the bullpup design helps keep that managable) and the trigger sucks. I LOVE my M1A in the BullDog, but it does have some downsides...
Where are you located now?
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Apparently I had a Dumb Ass attack, I do have a 11.5" Rock River setup with a Gemtech G-5 suppressor that I have for CQB. What I am actually looking for is a short barreled main battle rifle that if needed could be used for CQB. Looking for the "best of both worlds" so to speak. Sorry about the mix up.
Apparently I had a Dumb Ass attack, I do have a 11.5" Rock River setup with a Gemtech G-5 suppressor that I have for CQB. What I am actually looking for is a short barreled main battle rifle that if needed could be used for CQB. Looking for the "best of both worlds" so to speak. Sorry about the mix up.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
If you really want a 7.62 carbine, another consideration is the LT OBR. I would have gone with a SOPMOD stock but my state still has an AWB so I had to make due. This rifle is simply awesome. It eats everything and is extremely accurate. I like the slightly muzzle heavy balance because of the caliber.
If you really want a 7.62 carbine, another consideration is the LT OBR. I would have gone with a SOPMOD stock but my state still has an AWB so I had to make due. This rifle is simply awesome. It eats everything and is extremely accurate. I like the slightly muzzle heavy balance because of the caliber.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
A scout length M1a, with a tri rail hand guard, I'd take that rifle and replace the stock with a Vltor mod stock. Then you'd have something. Good optics and your set. As time goes on, you might accurize it, replace a few commercial parts with better, but you wouldn't have to right away.
A set-up like that is how I would roll in M1a fashion for CQB/Battle rifle combo.
A scout length M1a, with a tri rail hand guard, I'd take that rifle and replace the stock with a Vltor mod stock. Then you'd have something. Good optics and your set. As time goes on, you might accurize it, replace a few commercial parts with better, but you wouldn't have to right away.
A set-up like that is how I would roll in M1a fashion for CQB/Battle rifle combo.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
If u want compact, go keltec RFB. SBR size without the tax stamp.
If u want compact, go keltec RFB. SBR size without the tax stamp.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
I have done pretty well running my MWS CQB style. The Battlecomp break has made it comparable in blast and noise to 5.56 according to bystanders. Most didnt know I was shooting 308 until they saw the steel move A LOT more than the 5.56 competitors. Yes the rifle is heavy. But my times have not suffered much. In fact my times have been faster than the same course run with my Scar 16. This may be due in large part to the Elcan Specter on the MWS which was saving me some serious time on the longer engagements compared to the T1 micro on the scar. The only thing Im faster with through the stage is my Colt 6940. AT first when I ran the MWS I really started to curse myself for not staying the hell out of Wendy's. But the more I run it, the better it gets. I am extremely happy with the rifle. I replaced a DSA SA58 with it and have zero regrets!
Shane
I have done pretty well running my MWS CQB style. The Battlecomp break has made it comparable in blast and noise to 5.56 according to bystanders. Most didnt know I was shooting 308 until they saw the steel move A LOT more than the 5.56 competitors. Yes the rifle is heavy. But my times have not suffered much. In fact my times have been faster than the same course run with my Scar 16. This may be due in large part to the Elcan Specter on the MWS which was saving me some serious time on the longer engagements compared to the T1 micro on the scar. The only thing Im faster with through the stage is my Colt 6940. AT first when I ran the MWS I really started to curse myself for not staying the hell out of Wendy's. But the more I run it, the better it gets. I am extremely happy with the rifle. I replaced a DSA SA58 with it and have zero regrets!
Shane
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
The only place that 5.56 performance lacks in CQB is personnel's ability to employ it.
If I were married to having just 1 gun then maybe I'd look harder at how to apply the 7.62 more in a CQB environment. Since I'm not. . . nope.
It sounds like you have your arms in fair order.
Maybe consider getting some training to help teach you what you don't even know that you don't know?
16-24 hours of current, solid, reality based training can do wonders for shooters.
You'd have to spend A LOT of time working on 7.62 technique to keep pace with even an average ability shooter running a lighter, more maneuverable weapon with less recoil.
Probably not a popular opinion in these parts because it doesn't sell the kit we all like to pick up at a used, discounted price though t
The only place that 5.56 performance lacks in CQB is personnel's ability to employ it.
If I were married to having just 1 gun then maybe I'd look harder at how to apply the 7.62 more in a CQB environment. Since I'm not. . . nope.
It sounds like you have your arms in fair order.
Maybe consider getting some training to help teach you what you don't even know that you don't know?
16-24 hours of current, solid, reality based training can do wonders for shooters.
You'd have to spend A LOT of time working on 7.62 technique to keep pace with even an average ability shooter running a lighter, more maneuverable weapon with less recoil.
Probably not a popular opinion in these parts because it doesn't sell the kit we all like to pick up at a used, discounted price though t
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
5.56 isn't and never was a very good CQB round if you think it is i'm sorry i do not. the package we are given isn't bad and it carries a lot of rounds but i've seen guys take several rounds center mass and run out of a room. If i could carry something else i would, i wish we had 6.8 that round is BAD ass as a SBR.
5.56 isn't and never was a very good CQB round if you think it is i'm sorry i do not. the package we are given isn't bad and it carries a lot of rounds but i've seen guys take several rounds center mass and run out of a room. If i could carry something else i would, i wish we had 6.8 that round is BAD ass as a SBR.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
I understand where you're coming from and concede that it is valid to a point. I've also seen more than a handful of dudes run off with bigger holes punched in apparent sweet spots as well. 1 was hit in the neck with MK211 & according to internet postings & old wives tails his head was suppose to separate & his pelvis was suppose to turn inside out. Terminal ballistics teeters on the edge of black magic outside of lab controls IMO.
That said, a decently trained shooter who cleans his sector a full second slower than someone using a lessor caliber system is still looking at first place looser IMO.
There are a handful of rounds out there that I would prefer over M855 & MK262. If our dudes were allowed to use even the worst performing of them these boogie man reports would undoubtedly lessen.
If you want to lead the charge to get the lawyers to open up the handcuffs we are saddled with I'm all about getting your back. I'd even thumb the drum for an upgrade to 6.8 if the restrictions were lifted. FMJ is FMJ though for the most part & from my limited perspective I don't think we see enough increase in terminal performance to warrant a caliber switch expense over the cheaper alternative of training our gunfighters to I higher standard with more effective techniques.
If a cat isn't bound to the laws of land warfare etc I would expect there is plenty enough performance in modern 5.56 ammo & effective training compared to buying an expensive platform, with expensive mags, and lessor available ammo. Unfortunately 6.8 isn't as well supported & I say that as a 6.8 owner.
Just my $.02
I understand where you're coming from and concede that it is valid to a point. I've also seen more than a handful of dudes run off with bigger holes punched in apparent sweet spots as well. 1 was hit in the neck with MK211 & according to internet postings & old wives tails his head was suppose to separate & his pelvis was suppose to turn inside out. Terminal ballistics teeters on the edge of black magic outside of lab controls IMO.
That said, a decently trained shooter who cleans his sector a full second slower than someone using a lessor caliber system is still looking at first place looser IMO.
There are a handful of rounds out there that I would prefer over M855 & MK262. If our dudes were allowed to use even the worst performing of them these boogie man reports would undoubtedly lessen.
If you want to lead the charge to get the lawyers to open up the handcuffs we are saddled with I'm all about getting your back. I'd even thumb the drum for an upgrade to 6.8 if the restrictions were lifted. FMJ is FMJ though for the most part & from my limited perspective I don't think we see enough increase in terminal performance to warrant a caliber switch expense over the cheaper alternative of training our gunfighters to I higher standard with more effective techniques.
If a cat isn't bound to the laws of land warfare etc I would expect there is plenty enough performance in modern 5.56 ammo & effective training compared to buying an expensive platform, with expensive mags, and lessor available ammo. Unfortunately 6.8 isn't as well supported & I say that as a 6.8 owner.
Just my $.02
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postal0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The MWS is more of a DMR rifle then a handy CQB rifle. If you must have 308, look into the Scar Heavy and the KAC SR25EMC. Both of those would be lighter and handier then the MWS.</div></div>
I favor the ergonomics of the MWS over the SCAR-H. The SR25EMC is overpriced at double that of a MWS. Is that really worth one pound? Personally, I like the heft of the front-heavy MWS as it helps reduce muzzle flip of the larger round. </div></div>
And some recent comments about the .308 scar from LL and a couple others has further steered me away. I forget which thread it was on but they had a couple and the accuracy of the .308 was dissapointing. Especially for the price of the things.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MidwestPX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Postal0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The MWS is more of a DMR rifle then a handy CQB rifle. If you must have 308, look into the Scar Heavy and the KAC SR25EMC. Both of those would be lighter and handier then the MWS.</div></div>
I favor the ergonomics of the MWS over the SCAR-H. The SR25EMC is overpriced at double that of a MWS. Is that really worth one pound? Personally, I like the heft of the front-heavy MWS as it helps reduce muzzle flip of the larger round. </div></div>
And some recent comments about the .308 scar from LL and a couple others has further steered me away. I forget which thread it was on but they had a couple and the accuracy of the .308 was dissapointing. Especially for the price of the things.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
For .308 the 155gr Hornady 8087C is a great round for terminal performance without major overpenetration issues. As well there is a new 155gr SOST coming down the pipe specifically for 16" 7.62mm guns.
FYI the difference in the SR-25 EMC is not just a pound, but the gas system, bolt and carrier and some other upgrade we did to the gun.
I can run a 7.62mm gun in keeping with the majority of 5.56mm shooters, and I've seen guys run circles around some other 5.56mm shooters with our 7.62mm gun.
That said dedicated CQB roles are not exactly what I would run a 7.62mm system for.
For .308 the 155gr Hornady 8087C is a great round for terminal performance without major overpenetration issues. As well there is a new 155gr SOST coming down the pipe specifically for 16" 7.62mm guns.
FYI the difference in the SR-25 EMC is not just a pound, but the gas system, bolt and carrier and some other upgrade we did to the gun.
I can run a 7.62mm gun in keeping with the majority of 5.56mm shooters, and I've seen guys run circles around some other 5.56mm shooters with our 7.62mm gun.
That said dedicated CQB roles are not exactly what I would run a 7.62mm system for.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WuLitian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are dead set on the 7.62, the M1A/M14 in the BullDog is pretty awesome. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: secondstoryguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If your going to go with an M1A/M14 type rifle I wouldn't go shorter than 18" and have it built by Smith Enterprises. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dahsma</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What I am actually looking for is a short barreled main battle rifle that if needed could be used for CQB. Looking for the "best of both worlds" so to speak. </div></div>
Smith Enterprise, Inc. has a new 4 groove 16.25" barrel with a 1:10 ROT that would probably
meet/exceed your "best of both worlds" requirements if you put the action in the new BD762.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WuLitian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are dead set on the 7.62, the M1A/M14 in the BullDog is pretty awesome. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: secondstoryguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If your going to go with an M1A/M14 type rifle I wouldn't go shorter than 18" and have it built by Smith Enterprises. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dahsma</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What I am actually looking for is a short barreled main battle rifle that if needed could be used for CQB. Looking for the "best of both worlds" so to speak. </div></div>
Smith Enterprise, Inc. has a new 4 groove 16.25" barrel with a 1:10 ROT that would probably
meet/exceed your "best of both worlds" requirements if you put the action in the new BD762.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
.458 SOCOM, or Saiga 20 w/Paradox rifled muzzle device and sabots. By my estimate the 20ga sabot delivers roughly the same ballistics as the .44mag. For CQB, and deer; probably a winner.
There's also the .44 Automag or 44AMP with ammo from Cor-Bon and brass from Starline, the cartridge case is essentially a .308 or .30-'06 case shortened to 1.300".
Greg
.458 SOCOM, or Saiga 20 w/Paradox rifled muzzle device and sabots. By my estimate the 20ga sabot delivers roughly the same ballistics as the .44mag. For CQB, and deer; probably a winner.
There's also the .44 Automag or 44AMP with ammo from Cor-Bon and brass from Starline, the cartridge case is essentially a .308 or .30-'06 case shortened to 1.300".
Greg
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Another thought: Since I already own an Armalite Ar-10t with about 10 mags. would it be economical to look into a 16" Armalite so I don't have several different types of mags? What is your opinion on that? I'm not sure what you guys think about Armalite rifles. I'm not sold on paying a lot for a rifle just for its name, a little more training with a cheaper weapon will produce the same results in my opinion. But hey that's just an opinion.
Another thought: Since I already own an Armalite Ar-10t with about 10 mags. would it be economical to look into a 16" Armalite so I don't have several different types of mags? What is your opinion on that? I'm not sure what you guys think about Armalite rifles. I'm not sold on paying a lot for a rifle just for its name, a little more training with a cheaper weapon will produce the same results in my opinion. But hey that's just an opinion.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Perhaps a 12" LWRC REPR would meet your requirements. (Photo borrowed from LWRCI forum). This is similar to my setup (different optic and mount) and I like it a lot.
Perhaps a 12" LWRC REPR would meet your requirements. (Photo borrowed from LWRCI forum). This is similar to my setup (different optic and mount) and I like it a lot.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put a complete 16" Armalite upper on my 20" SPR and it ran great.
Try it, you can sell off the 16" upper if you find it too long and move on to plan B. </div></div>
+1. This is a solid idea since you already have a complete, functioning lower receiver group. Either get a 16" complete upper or a 14.5" upper with a permanent flash-hider/muzzle device installed and be done with it. You can build it yourself (if you are so inclined and have the knowledge, skill and tools to do it...save a little dough) or you can go straight to any number of vendors who sell complete uppers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I put a complete 16" Armalite upper on my 20" SPR and it ran great.
Try it, you can sell off the 16" upper if you find it too long and move on to plan B. </div></div>
+1. This is a solid idea since you already have a complete, functioning lower receiver group. Either get a 16" complete upper or a 14.5" upper with a permanent flash-hider/muzzle device installed and be done with it. You can build it yourself (if you are so inclined and have the knowledge, skill and tools to do it...save a little dough) or you can go straight to any number of vendors who sell complete uppers.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
LMT MWS. If the weight is to much send the barrel off for a trim.
That being said. Look to the pros. 5.56 SBR, short SF cans (5"), and Barnes 70gr. The 70gr puts them in a heep.
LMT MWS. If the weight is to much send the barrel off for a trim.
That being said. Look to the pros. 5.56 SBR, short SF cans (5"), and Barnes 70gr. The 70gr puts them in a heep.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dzhitshard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand where you're coming from and concede that it is valid to a point. I've also seen more than a handful of dudes run off with bigger holes punched in apparent sweet spots as well. 1 was hit in the neck with MK211 & according to internet postings & old wives tails his head was suppose to separate & his pelvis was suppose to turn inside out. Terminal ballistics teeters on the edge of black magic outside of lab controls IMO.
That said, a decently trained shooter who cleans his sector a full second slower than someone using a lessor caliber system is still looking at first place looser IMO.
There are a handful of rounds out there that I would prefer over M855 & MK262. If our dudes were allowed to use even the worst performing of them these boogie man reports would undoubtedly lessen.
If you want to lead the charge to get the lawyers to open up the handcuffs we are saddled with I'm all about getting your back. I'd even thumb the drum for an upgrade to 6.8 if the restrictions were lifted. FMJ is FMJ though for the most part & from my limited perspective I don't think we see enough increase in terminal performance to warrant a caliber switch expense over the cheaper alternative of training our gunfighters to I higher standard with more effective techniques.
If a cat isn't bound to the laws of land warfare etc I would expect there is plenty enough performance in modern 5.56 ammo & effective training compared to buying an expensive platform, with expensive mags, and lessor available ammo. Unfortunately 6.8 isn't as well supported & I say that as a 6.8 owner.
Just my $.02 </div></div>
no i completely agree and some tier 1 assets are seriously pushing for the new 300 blackout wether then will ever trickle down who knows. they also have the mp7 too and i have yet to see that, lol. we will stick to 5.56 and 7.62 for the foreseeable future simply due to the unbelievable number of rounds we still have for those two calibers. why we EVER went to 5.56 is beyond me but thats a whole diferent story.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dzhitshard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand where you're coming from and concede that it is valid to a point. I've also seen more than a handful of dudes run off with bigger holes punched in apparent sweet spots as well. 1 was hit in the neck with MK211 & according to internet postings & old wives tails his head was suppose to separate & his pelvis was suppose to turn inside out. Terminal ballistics teeters on the edge of black magic outside of lab controls IMO.
That said, a decently trained shooter who cleans his sector a full second slower than someone using a lessor caliber system is still looking at first place looser IMO.
There are a handful of rounds out there that I would prefer over M855 & MK262. If our dudes were allowed to use even the worst performing of them these boogie man reports would undoubtedly lessen.
If you want to lead the charge to get the lawyers to open up the handcuffs we are saddled with I'm all about getting your back. I'd even thumb the drum for an upgrade to 6.8 if the restrictions were lifted. FMJ is FMJ though for the most part & from my limited perspective I don't think we see enough increase in terminal performance to warrant a caliber switch expense over the cheaper alternative of training our gunfighters to I higher standard with more effective techniques.
If a cat isn't bound to the laws of land warfare etc I would expect there is plenty enough performance in modern 5.56 ammo & effective training compared to buying an expensive platform, with expensive mags, and lessor available ammo. Unfortunately 6.8 isn't as well supported & I say that as a 6.8 owner.
Just my $.02 </div></div>
no i completely agree and some tier 1 assets are seriously pushing for the new 300 blackout wether then will ever trickle down who knows. they also have the mp7 too and i have yet to see that, lol. we will stick to 5.56 and 7.62 for the foreseeable future simply due to the unbelievable number of rounds we still have for those two calibers. why we EVER went to 5.56 is beyond me but thats a whole diferent story.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
I agree. Training is on the roster for this coming summer when I am due some serious time off! For clarification, Im not trying to put a round peg in a square hole. But the way the multigun matches are run in my area gives me my own little experimentation grounds. The only seperation is Irons, Red Dot, or magified optics. Larger calibers get no consideration and have to fire the same number of rounds as the 5.56's. Since that is the case, I can roll through all of my rifles in the same match and evaluate the weekness and strengths of each platform compared directly to each other. I think its a pretty good cross section of platforms for comparison. Colt 6940, Scar16, and MWS. So the question I was trying to answer for myself is if I had to, could I use the MWS in this role. So far the answer is yes. However, I think I need to take the experiment a step further and optically even the playing field. At one of the upcoming matches I will either put a red dot on the MWS or take em all down to irons and then compare the times for a clearer picture. I figure I can either read about what works or go try myself and find out what works for me
I agree. Training is on the roster for this coming summer when I am due some serious time off! For clarification, Im not trying to put a round peg in a square hole. But the way the multigun matches are run in my area gives me my own little experimentation grounds. The only seperation is Irons, Red Dot, or magified optics. Larger calibers get no consideration and have to fire the same number of rounds as the 5.56's. Since that is the case, I can roll through all of my rifles in the same match and evaluate the weekness and strengths of each platform compared directly to each other. I think its a pretty good cross section of platforms for comparison. Colt 6940, Scar16, and MWS. So the question I was trying to answer for myself is if I had to, could I use the MWS in this role. So far the answer is yes. However, I think I need to take the experiment a step further and optically even the playing field. At one of the upcoming matches I will either put a red dot on the MWS or take em all down to irons and then compare the times for a clearer picture. I figure I can either read about what works or go try myself and find out what works for me
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Might another Marine ask why you're needing a CQB capability?
Might another Marine ask why you're needing a CQB capability?
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Might another Marine ask why you're needing a CQB capability? </div></div>
i was thinking the same thing....
and big joe, i agree the 5.56mm is not much of a round..
this is why many U.S. contractors that are dead set on the ar platform are now using 7.62x39 or even 6.8spc..
i love my 11.5" 6.8spc..
imo 7.62x51/.308 is not a cqb round.. the added weight of the larger weapon system and the increased recoil.. kinda make for bad deal.. now if your looking for a "battle rifle" that can be used for cqb, then i'd say buy an armalite 16" upper and have at it..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Might another Marine ask why you're needing a CQB capability? </div></div>
i was thinking the same thing....
and big joe, i agree the 5.56mm is not much of a round..
this is why many U.S. contractors that are dead set on the ar platform are now using 7.62x39 or even 6.8spc..
i love my 11.5" 6.8spc..
imo 7.62x51/.308 is not a cqb round.. the added weight of the larger weapon system and the increased recoil.. kinda make for bad deal.. now if your looking for a "battle rifle" that can be used for cqb, then i'd say buy an armalite 16" upper and have at it..
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dahsma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thought: Since I already own an Armalite Ar-10t with about 10 mags. would it be economical to look into a 16" Armalite so I don't have several different types of mags? What is your opinion on that? I'm not sure what you guys think about Armalite rifles. I'm not sold on paying a lot for a rifle just for its name, a little more training with a cheaper weapon will produce the same results in my opinion. But hey that's just an opinion. </div></div>
Agree.
I run a DPMS AP4 16" gun for fun.
Gratuitous photo. . . . .
But, I defend my home with a Remington 870. Civilian CQB involves shooting from inside your house, sending bullets OUT! Recipients of those bullets might be your neighbor's cub scout.
BMT
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dahsma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thought: Since I already own an Armalite Ar-10t with about 10 mags. would it be economical to look into a 16" Armalite so I don't have several different types of mags? What is your opinion on that? I'm not sure what you guys think about Armalite rifles. I'm not sold on paying a lot for a rifle just for its name, a little more training with a cheaper weapon will produce the same results in my opinion. But hey that's just an opinion. </div></div>
Agree.
I run a DPMS AP4 16" gun for fun.
Gratuitous photo. . . . .
But, I defend my home with a Remington 870. Civilian CQB involves shooting from inside your house, sending bullets OUT! Recipients of those bullets might be your neighbor's cub scout.
BMT
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Personally, I would keep the 5.56 for CQB and your AR 10 for medium range shooting. Especially with the scope you have. Hopefully, we can all avoid CQB - I like to be as far away as possible. But you are right about the 5.56 being questionable concerning performance at longer ranges.
Sounds like you already have some nice systems. But you can never have too many weapons. Anyway, welcome to the forum.
Personally, I would keep the 5.56 for CQB and your AR 10 for medium range shooting. Especially with the scope you have. Hopefully, we can all avoid CQB - I like to be as far away as possible. But you are right about the 5.56 being questionable concerning performance at longer ranges.
Sounds like you already have some nice systems. But you can never have too many weapons. Anyway, welcome to the forum.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
I could easily see the weight as a concern, but at least in the MWS, recoil hasnt been one. I pulled this clip out so you can view recoil for yourself.
http://bryantarmament.com/pics/mws.mp4
I could easily see the weight as a concern, but at least in the MWS, recoil hasnt been one. I pulled this clip out so you can view recoil for yourself.
http://bryantarmament.com/pics/mws.mp4
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Im not tracking the 5.56 vs 308 debate. Points made about cub scouts may have no relevance for some. If I were in a rural area where I might have to shoot through brush or if I were in an area where penetration may be a concern (not having enough) those are areas I would prefer a 308. An apartment complex or condo, I would not. I think it goes without saying that choosing the right tool for YOUR situation is sort of obvious. For me knowing the limitations of each rifle helps me do that BUT knowing which rifle has the broadest spectrum of usefulneess has value too because you dont always get to pick your scenario.
Im not tracking the 5.56 vs 308 debate. Points made about cub scouts may have no relevance for some. If I were in a rural area where I might have to shoot through brush or if I were in an area where penetration may be a concern (not having enough) those are areas I would prefer a 308. An apartment complex or condo, I would not. I think it goes without saying that choosing the right tool for YOUR situation is sort of obvious. For me knowing the limitations of each rifle helps me do that BUT knowing which rifle has the broadest spectrum of usefulneess has value too because you dont always get to pick your scenario.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
As always it depends on your intended use, for home defense get a tactical shotgun first.
If you want a quick reliable 5.56 CQB, get a SCAR 16s. For cheap and reliable an AK47 specifically an Arsenal SGL-21, great deal.
If you are set on a 7.62X51 for home defense here is what I would buy:
1. FN SCAR 17s (heavy) - Good ergonomics, light, excellent engineering, FN may have a conversion kit to 5.56 in the future. But it is costly and the parts and magazines are unobtainable right now (This didn't stop me from buying one).
2. This is hard, but I like the M1A SOCCOM or Scout. Old ergonomics, but rock solid reliablility.
3. One of the AR 7.62 designs, I'm not as excited about these, but I know the platform inside and out, the ergonomics are nice and there are many parts and accessories.
4. FAL
I have a SCAR 16s and SCAR 17s and some AR type rifles, but next to my bed I keep a Glock and a tactical shotgun with lights.
If you are using it for competition and home defence, it would have to be an AR 7.62 or a SCAR.
Happy shopping!
Cheers,
Scott
As always it depends on your intended use, for home defense get a tactical shotgun first.
If you want a quick reliable 5.56 CQB, get a SCAR 16s. For cheap and reliable an AK47 specifically an Arsenal SGL-21, great deal.
If you are set on a 7.62X51 for home defense here is what I would buy:
1. FN SCAR 17s (heavy) - Good ergonomics, light, excellent engineering, FN may have a conversion kit to 5.56 in the future. But it is costly and the parts and magazines are unobtainable right now (This didn't stop me from buying one).
2. This is hard, but I like the M1A SOCCOM or Scout. Old ergonomics, but rock solid reliablility.
3. One of the AR 7.62 designs, I'm not as excited about these, but I know the platform inside and out, the ergonomics are nice and there are many parts and accessories.
4. FAL
I have a SCAR 16s and SCAR 17s and some AR type rifles, but next to my bed I keep a Glock and a tactical shotgun with lights.
If you are using it for competition and home defence, it would have to be an AR 7.62 or a SCAR.
Happy shopping!
Cheers,
Scott
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5.56 isn't and never was a very good CQB round if you think it is i'm sorry i do not. the package we are given isn't bad and it carries a lot of rounds but i've seen guys take several rounds center mass and run out of a room. If i could carry something else i would, i wish we had 6.8 that round is BAD ass as a SBR. </div></div>
this...if yer goin for cqb go 6.8 upper ar. otherwise check out a FAL carbine from dsa or other. rhodesians made good use of them, just sayin.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5.56 isn't and never was a very good CQB round if you think it is i'm sorry i do not. the package we are given isn't bad and it carries a lot of rounds but i've seen guys take several rounds center mass and run out of a room. If i could carry something else i would, i wish we had 6.8 that round is BAD ass as a SBR. </div></div>
this...if yer goin for cqb go 6.8 upper ar. otherwise check out a FAL carbine from dsa or other. rhodesians made good use of them, just sayin.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
As usual, we cant let the lines blur between FMJ restricted mil use and civy's who can buy whatever they want. I would not feel undergunned with many of the commercial 5.56 loadings.
Oompa:
1) Agree
2)I have no first hand knowledge but I have heard time and again these rifles eat themselves in high round count classes or hard use...
3)The other benefit here is DMR levels of accuracy.
4)Been there, sold it. I cant get used to the controls when everything else is AR patterned and I HATE hinge in mag systems!
Home defence is not a general subject. Saying a SCAR or 7.62 is what should be used if its HD and comp is bad advice. Each individuals needs must be considered. There is no best, only whats most likely right for the given circumstances.
As usual, we cant let the lines blur between FMJ restricted mil use and civy's who can buy whatever they want. I would not feel undergunned with many of the commercial 5.56 loadings.
Oompa:
1) Agree
2)I have no first hand knowledge but I have heard time and again these rifles eat themselves in high round count classes or hard use...
3)The other benefit here is DMR levels of accuracy.
4)Been there, sold it. I cant get used to the controls when everything else is AR patterned and I HATE hinge in mag systems!
Home defence is not a general subject. Saying a SCAR or 7.62 is what should be used if its HD and comp is bad advice. Each individuals needs must be considered. There is no best, only whats most likely right for the given circumstances.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Swat and patrol officers/deputies all over the country make good use of the 5.56 rifles. I say stick with 5.56 and pick a better bullet.
Swat and patrol officers/deputies all over the country make good use of the 5.56 rifles. I say stick with 5.56 and pick a better bullet.
Re: Looking to buy a 7.62 CQB platform
Certain groups are using the 70gr TSX round for CQB purposes and according to them, it's pretty friggin good... In fact I have heard it referred to as the volcano.
from what I have seen, the guys wanting 7.62 short rifles is because of the thickness of the buildings they are dealing with in places like Afghanistan and the distance to the surrounding mountains. They kick in the front door, find the BGs have gone out the back then they get engaged from a considerable distance out the back, so they want harder hitting farther away and not necessarily better up close effectiveness although it doesn't hurt. Sure there are always exceptions to that rule, but still, I'm not standing in front of your 5.56 at most ranges.
Personally what I see is the better bullet like the 77gr Mk262 is so much better at distance it does just zip through close up, however it's great farther. The standard around is again pretty fast, so it passes through being a penetrating round, so you want something like the 70gr TSX to expand close up.
As always your mileage may vary... and ps, yes we have seen great accuracy to 600m with the 12.5" POF 308. At sea level it will reach 800, but not well, however at altitude, you again increase effective range.
Certain groups are using the 70gr TSX round for CQB purposes and according to them, it's pretty friggin good... In fact I have heard it referred to as the volcano.
from what I have seen, the guys wanting 7.62 short rifles is because of the thickness of the buildings they are dealing with in places like Afghanistan and the distance to the surrounding mountains. They kick in the front door, find the BGs have gone out the back then they get engaged from a considerable distance out the back, so they want harder hitting farther away and not necessarily better up close effectiveness although it doesn't hurt. Sure there are always exceptions to that rule, but still, I'm not standing in front of your 5.56 at most ranges.
Personally what I see is the better bullet like the 77gr Mk262 is so much better at distance it does just zip through close up, however it's great farther. The standard around is again pretty fast, so it passes through being a penetrating round, so you want something like the 70gr TSX to expand close up.
As always your mileage may vary... and ps, yes we have seen great accuracy to 600m with the 12.5" POF 308. At sea level it will reach 800, but not well, however at altitude, you again increase effective range.
