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LPVO-second focal options

#2
Razor 1-6 is a benchmark in the SFP LPVO category. It's unbeatable for the price in my humble opinion. You have to spend considerably more to get something marginally better.

Sig Optics are a pass for me, you have to sort through the overwhelming majority of overseas garbage they make to find something decent. Just my opinion.
 
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#3
Petro712 said:
I'm interested in LPVO options that fit the following criteria:
Second focal
MOA dials
MOA reticle (no bullet drop compensation setups)
Illuminated reticle

I've found the Vortex Razor HD 1-6 and Sig Tango 6T 1-6. Any others I've missed?

Appreciate the help!
Click to expand...
what budget are you working with? I'm a fan of second focal lpvo's myself. do you want adjustable dials? when you say an moa reticle with no bullet drop, do you mean just a plex style reticle or just a simple moa reticle?
 
#4
No budget to work within.

By BDC, I'm referring to reticles with stadia marks based on a specific cartridge. A definite no go.

I'd rather have the stadia evenly disturbed. Example, every 5 moa or 2 moa.

The dials don't need to be exposed. Using holdovers is preferred.

I haven't heard much good regarding the Sig Tango. While the extreme opposite is true of the Vortex Razor.

I'm just surprised that the options are so few.
 
#7
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#8
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#10
Petro712 said:
I'm interested in LPVO options that fit the following criteria:
Second focal
MOA dials
MOA reticle (no bullet drop compensation setups)
Illuminated reticle

I've found the Vortex Razor HD 1-6 and Sig Tango 6T 1-6. Any others I've missed?

Appreciate the help!
Click to expand...
Bud, the question you're asking has a VERY subjective answer. I tore my hair out for over a year trying to find the perfect LPVO for me. I own or have owned every LPVO worth trying from about $2500 on down.

I have two main rigs. On one I run a TA11 ACOG with a Holosun on top and on the other a Nightforce NX8. My reasons for chosing those are subjective. From an objective point of view, considering things like field of view, the view through the objective, clarity of glass and robustness of build, I've gotta say that, for the money, the Gen II 1-6 Razor is still the one to beat.

Honestly, but for being a little heavy, I think an argument can be made for the 1-6 Gen II PST. At $500-$600, it's a heck of a scope.

In the end, I chose the ACOG for its simplicity, glass quality, size and weight, not to mention that it's bullet proof. I chose the NX8 for it's robustness of build, size, weight and glass quality. I did make sacrifices going with the NX8. Smaller field of view and tighter eye box, but it does what I need and it's so small that it doesn't get in the way.

Still, everytime I pick up my Razor, or even the PST, I'm amazed at what a shooter's optic each is. I see them as no compromise optics for their respective price ranges, at the expense of size and/or weight.

I'd start with a Razor in mind and make a list of those things you don't like about it, then find something that doesn't have those offending attributes and then decide what compromises you're willing to make. I was willing to compromise on eye box and field of view to get into something smaller and lighter.

If you don't mind the weight, the Razor is likely your answer. It may not be the absolute best choice, but it's rarely the wrong choice. It is an absolute joy to shoot with. There are two things that I don't like about it. The first is the weight, but it is what it is. The second is that it has a wire reticle. I prefer an etched reticle.

Oh, check out the Delta Stryke HD as well. Same scope as the Credo HX, but has an available mil reticle. I think the Razor is a better scope, but the Stryker is like $600 or so cheaper.

If you just want to dip your toe, find a used PST. Odds are that you'd be fine with it. Excellent 1x and good 6x. The only time I don't like mine is when I throw it on a 12.5 rig, adding almost 29 ounces and then throw on the light and suppressor and then have to carry it all around.
 
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#11
gr8fuldoug said:
A few options:

Hawke Frontier 30 1-6x24 - L4A Dot

Sightron S-TAC 1-6x24 - IR AR1

Leupold Patrol 6HD 1-6x24 CDS-ZL2 Illum. CMR2

Sig Sauer TANGO MSR 1-6X24 – 30mm – SFP - Illuminated BDC 6

As a long standing supporting vendor here it's always our pleasure to assist the members here. Please feel free to give us a call, 516-217-1000, so we can assist you personally with different available options and special opportunities .
Click to expand...
The Leupold Patrol 6HD is a no go based on the CMR2 reticle. It falls into that category of BDC style reticles. The others I'm stearing clear of due to lower cost. Thanks
 
#14
TonyAngel said:
Bud, the question you're asking has a VERY subjective answer. I tore my hair out for over a year trying to find the perfect LPVO for me. I own or have owned every LPVO worth trying from about $2500 on down.

I have two main rigs. On one I run a TA11 ACOG with a Holosun on top and on the other a Nightforce NX8. My reasons for chosing those are subjective. From an objective point of view, considering things like field of view, the view through the objective, clarity of glass and robustness of build, I've gotta say that, for the money, the Gen II 1-6 Razor is still the one to beat.

Honestly, but for being a little heavy, I think an argument can be made for the 1-6 Gen II PST. At $500-$600, it's a heck of a scope.

In the end, I chose the ACOG for its simplicity, glass quality, size and weight, not to mention that it's bullet proof. I chose the NX8 for it's robustness of build, size, weight and glass quality. I did make sacrifices going with the NX8. Smaller field of view and tighter eye box, but it does what I need and it's so small that it doesn't get in the way.

Still, everytime I pick up my Razor, or even the PST, I'm amazed at what a shooter's optic each is. I see them as no compromise optics for their respective price ranges, at the expense of size and/or weight.

I'd start with a Razor in mind and make a list of those things you don't like about it, then find something that doesn't have those offending attributes and then decide what compromises you're willing to make. I was willing to compromise on eye box and field of view to get into something smaller and lighter.

If you don't mind the weight, the Razor is likely your answer. It may not be the absolute best choice, but it's rarely the wrong choice. It is an absolute joy to shoot with. There are two things that I don't like about it. The first is the weight, but it is what it is. The second is that it has a wire reticle. I prefer an etched reticle.

Oh, check out the Delta Stryke HD as well. Same scope as the Credo HX, but has an available mil reticle. I think the Razor is a better scope, but the Stryker is like $600 or so cheaper.

If you just want to dip your toe, find a used PST. Odds are that you'd be fine with it. Excellent 1x and good 6x. The only time I don't like mine is when I throw it on a 12.5 rig, adding almost 29 ounces and then throw on the light and suppressor and then have to carry it all around.
Click to expand...
TonyAngel-

Thanks for the detailed response outlining why you made the decision you did. As I’ve been scouring the web for options to test and evaluate, it’s obvious several others feel the same way you do about the Gen II Razor 1-6. It’s an optic that sets the bar high for other manufacturers.

The optics you use are all well outside the criteria laid out for my consideration. The ACOG is a fixed power, not variable. The NX8 is first focal, not second. The recommended Delta Stryke scopes are MIL based.

When administrations like to see “options” before a selection is made, I like to compare a minimum of three. Right now the Gen II Razor 1-6 (VMR-2) and Tango6T 1-6 (HELLFIRE MOA) are the only two that meet the criteria I laid out in my initial post. Ikeman83 suggested the Kahles 16i (SI1) and that may just be the third option. The capped mil dials will likely be ignored outside of adjusting a zero, so an exemption to the selection criteria could be justified.
 
#16
Petro712 said:
TonyAngel-

Thanks for the detailed response outlining why you made the decision you did. As I’ve been scouring the web for options to test and evaluate, it’s obvious several others feel the same way you do about the Gen II Razor 1-6. It’s an optic that sets the bar high for other manufacturers.

The optics you use are all well outside the criteria laid out for my consideration. The ACOG is a fixed power, not variable. The NX8 is first focal, not second. The recommended Delta Stryke scopes are MIL based.

When administrations like to see “options” before a selection is made, I like to compare a minimum of three. Right now the Gen II Razor 1-6 (VMR-2) and Tango6T 1-6 (HELLFIRE MOA) are the only two that meet the criteria I laid out in my initial post. Ikeman83 suggested the Kahles 16i (SI1) and that may just be the third option. The capped mil dials will likely be ignored outside of adjusting a zero, so an exemption to the selection criteria could be justified.
Click to expand...

What you putting it on and use? I have had Razors for about 12 years now on my ARs and it’s a great optic in your specs. Used it for a few years in 3 gun and more for just fun range use. Been tossed in many barrels at matches and no issues so I know it’s tough but if there was and I slammed it into something harder than I should or drop it then I know I am covered which is great also.

IMG_0204.jpeg
IMG_0206.jpeg
IMG_0205.jpeg
 
#17
The Razor has been so good for so long that it can almost seem like no one has really bothered making anything worth mentioning to take a run at it.

If you’re open to loosening your parameters a bit, the good ol’ Steiner P4Xi 1-4 is still the next best thing to the Razor IMHO even after all these years (maybe better for some since it’s lighter and cheaper), true 1X, nuclear dot, simple reticle:

IMG_8696.png
 
#18
Rob01 said:
What you putting it on and use? I have had Razors for about 12 years now on my ARs and it’s a great optic in your specs. Used it for a few years in 3 gun and more for just fun range use. Been tossed in many barrels at matches and no issues so I know it’s tough but if there was and I slammed it into something harder than I should or drop it then I know I am covered which is great also.

View attachment 8702040View attachment 8702041View attachment 8702042
Click to expand...
Optics will sit on 13.5" Tier 1 JP15LE rifles.
 
#19
#20
Petro712 said:
No budget to work within.

By BDC, I'm referring to reticles with stadia marks based on a specific cartridge. A definite no go.

I'd rather have the stadia evenly disturbed. Example, every 5 moa or 2 moa.

The dials don't need to be exposed. Using holdovers is preferred.

I haven't heard much good regarding the Sig Tango. While the extreme opposite is true of the Vortex Razor.

I'm just surprised that the options are so few.
Click to expand...
As others have mentioned, the Razor 1-6 GenII is still a super star.
Even compared to it's newer 1-10 Gen III brother, it doesn't compromise on anything and is super solid.

We have a lot of LPVOs show up in classes when we run Overwatch blocks as part of the course. The Razors represent heavy and I can tell you that a bunch have been used hard. It is common to see them with anodizing worn off, dents on the edges and dings on the turret caps. They just keep running. They are not being abused. They are being used. A lot.

When you look at the wear points and typical damage/dings to these type scopes on work guns, it kind of makes my argument about not having exposed turrets on a working LPVO. Keep them covered and protected. You won't be dialing for hits in a work environment.

Note that I have a couple of ATACR 1-8 and an NX8 1-8. They are fantastic scopes for what we use them for but if I had to outfit 1 or 100 work rifles and make them dummy proof, I would go with the Razor.

This video of OHP porting a windshield and tagging good hits into a truck during a chase probably sold them a gazillion Razor 1-6s.
 
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#21
CK1.0 said:
The Razor has been so good for so long that it can almost seem like no one has really bothered making anything worth mentioning to take a run at it.

If you’re open to loosening your parameters a bit, the good ol’ Steiner P4Xi 1-4 is still the next best thing to the Razor IMHO even after all these years (maybe better for some since it’s lighter and cheaper), true 1X, nuclear dot, simple reticle:

View attachment 8702068
Click to expand...
It appears Steiner uses a reticle calibrated to 556 NATO 62gr and 7.62 NATO 175gr projectiles. That won't work. Thanks.
 
#24
. . . . . and whatever optic you choose, don't skimp on quality mounts.

We see these two as some of the better thought out designs coupled with very high quality materials and machining.

Unity Tactical https://unitytactical.com/product/fast-lpvo/

and

Reptilia https://reptiliacorp.com/product-ca...AUXYJzT7aJxJAnbY6-KwUlCEq3PdBo9qZv4syvphvK7ao

Both of these are super solid mounts that are bomb proof, super high quality and DON’T HAVE BIG FUCKING NUTS hanging off the side to catch on shit or rub holes in you.
 
#25
Petro712 said:
TonyAngel-

Thanks for the detailed response outlining why you made the decision you did. As I’ve been scouring the web for options to test and evaluate, it’s obvious several others feel the same way you do about the Gen II Razor 1-6. It’s an optic that sets the bar high for other manufacturers.

The optics you use are all well outside the criteria laid out for my consideration. The ACOG is a fixed power, not variable. The NX8 is first focal, not second. The recommended Delta Stryke scopes are MIL based.

When administrations like to see “options” before a selection is made, I like to compare a minimum of three. Right now the Gen II Razor 1-6 (VMR-2) and Tango6T 1-6 (HELLFIRE MOA) are the only two that meet the criteria I laid out in my initial post. Ikeman83 suggested the Kahles 16i (SI1) and that may just be the third option. The capped mil dials will likely be ignored outside of adjusting a zero, so an exemption to the selection criteria could be justified.
Click to expand...
Hey man, I guess I missed it in your original post, but the fact that you are shopping for a department eluded me.

If you're looking for a piece of kit that is the most likely to be used effectively with a minimum of transition training, I'd say that the Razor is likely your best bet. As long as the shooter has some training, a shooter new to the Razor can usually get right behind it and start rolling. It has one of the most forgiving and easiest to get behind eye boxes that I've seen. Running a Razor is about as effortless as it gets.

I also like the Khales K16i and its Swaro brethren, the Z6i, but (and let the flaming begin) neither of those give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when it comes to robustness. Yes, they have arguably better glass, but does it really matter? Besides, Vortex will be there for you if things go wrong and it happens quickly.

If you're considering the sfp 6T, try one out first. It's a very nice scope, but I'd consider illumination brightness and the reticle. Assuming that the two models being considered both have wire reticles, all other things being equal, I'll take the one with the brighter reticle. If one has the wire reticle, but is brighter than the other which has an etched reticle, you'll have to decide if that's a tradeoff you can live with. Personally, I like illumination that will punch through bright white light.

Just as an example, my NX8. I got my small, light scope with an etched reticle that is nuclear bright. The trade off was that I went with FFP and sacrificed eyebox. AND it took me a good 5k rounds to get used to it.
 
#26
Petro712 said:
It appears Steiner uses a reticle calibrated to 556 NATO 62gr and 7.62 NATO 175gr projectiles. That won't work. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Most LPVO reticles meant for an AR are a little wonky in that they’re built for coarse speed more so than dialing or being able to hold fine holdovers (with the limitations of sucky .223/.556 blaster ammo ballistics in mind). Decent enough on a man-sized target inside ~300-400 yards, fuzzy past that.

IMO the mag offered by LPVOs is better suited for PID than actually hitting shit way out there lol.

If you’re planning to shoot further or need more precision, with 77gr stuff more exclusively, and more going towards a DMR type of thing, you’d probably be happier with a scope that has some real magnification and a dot hanging off it somewhere.

Good luck!
 
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